What is Lordship Salvation and is it false doctrine?

[Lik3]

What exactly is Lordship Salvation? Is it biblical? Is there a difference between the doctrine of being saved by faith and the doctrine of Lordship Salvation? I have read that it is false doctrine but I can't find anything in scripture that says that that Lordship Salvation is neither true nor false. Is the "Sinners Prayer" based on Lordship Salvation?

The Sinner's Prayer
"Dear Lord Jesus, come into my heart. Forgive me of my sin. Wash me and cleanse me. Set me free. Jesus, thank You that You died for me. I believe that You are risen from the dead and that You’re coming back again for me. Fill me with the Holy Spirit. Give me a passion for the lost, a hunger for the things of God and a holy boldness to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m saved; I’m born again, I’m forgiven and I’m on my way to Heaven because I have Jesus in my heart."
http://www.wgnm.com/script.html

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lorship Salvation is at the heart Conditional Security.

John MacAuthor appears to be a proponent of Lordship Salvation.
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
And Gotquestions appears to agree with him.

This makes it appear like they are proponents of Conditional Security, but they are not (Which is deceptive).

John MacAuthor is a Calvinist and has even said at one time that a believer who committed suicide was saved.
John MacAuthor has also denied that the blood of Jesus literally cleanses us of sin, too.
Gotquestions also wrongfully does not believe in Conditional Security, either.

http://www.gotquestions.org/conditional-security.html

Gotquestions also wrongfully believes you can commit suicide and be saved, too.
However, 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Suicide is self murder.
God's Word also says, "If any man defiles the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17).

This one of the many reasons why Conditional Security is biblical. Because if it wasn't then a one time prayer is all you need to get into the Kingdom and you can then go back to your old life of sin and not worry about living for Jesus. The Eternal Security Proponent proposes that a changed person will ALWAYS live a holy life. But their version of holiness is not described in the Bible. For what about a person's free will? Is it gone? This is Calvinism at it's heart. For Calvinism denies man's free will. Except Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved denies "free will" after you accept the Lord. For the Bible has many warnings against committing certain sins. Matthew 5:28-30 says if you lust after a woman your whole body can be cast into hell fire. Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. John says if you hate your brother you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). John says ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). For you have to remember, it only took one sin in the Garden to separate man from God. Today, men teach that a person should generally live a holy life and yet dying in one or two unrepentant sins will not keep them out of God's Kingdom. This is deceptive; And it is wrong. For whether you commit one sin or a lot of sin, it is still wrong; And God cannot agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that.


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[FreeGrace2]

The term "Lordship Salvation" was coined by John MacArthur, when he wrote "The Gospel According to Jesus". Similar books followed by him: "FaithWorks" and "Hard to Believe". All of them preach "Lordship Salvation".

The gist of LS is that salvation is by faith in Christ AND making Christ "Lord of your life". How's that work? Well, making Christ the Lord of your life requires a lifestyle change, for sure. I'm NOT advocating a lifestyle of continuing sin after one is saved. But LS demands that a lifestyle change is required for salvation.

All the while, MacArthur denies that he teaches any kind of works-salvation theology.

Just from his book "Hard to Believe", I have 13 typed pages of direct quotes from him that should clarify exactly what he preaches.

Here are some of them:
p.15
To JM, “coming to Christ” requires a “price to pay, and counting its cost” “If you’re going to come to Christ, you’re going to have to count the cost. Have you counted the cost? Do you even understand there’s a price to pay?”

p.85 JM views the story of the rich young ruler as showing that salvation is dependent on making a sacrifice(giving up all his possessions) to enter the kingdom. “He (RYR) had found the gate that few people ever find, but he refused to enter because he was too selfish and self-centered to make the sacrifice Jesus asked of him”.

p.93 “Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it’s the fruit of actions, not intentions.” This is bold-faced works. Obedience and service are human works all the way.

p.95 WORKS SALVATION: again, JM says “If you do not live a genuinely righteous life, it doesn’t matter what you claim. You are deceived.” This is said immediately after quoting Matt 7:21 “he who does the will of My Father in heaven” will enter the kingdom.

p.99 WORKS SALVATION: “The involved who are deceived (about being Christians)…know the gospel but they don’t obey the Word of God.” To JM, there is NO salvation apart from obedience.

p.104 WORKS SALVATION: JM states, “And if these realities (living the perfect standard) do not illustrate the direction of your life, I don’t care what confession you’ve made, you’re not a Christian.” JM looks ONLY at the direction of one’s life to determine their status.

p.105 WORKS SALVATION: JM completely misses the point of Matt 7:21-23. He says our Lord condemns “those who say but don’t do…” In fact, those he rejected did significant works, even in the name of our Lord, and they even recognized His Lordship, yet they didn’t believe in Him as their Savior, yet JM apparently ignores this.

p.112 WORKS SALVATION: JM says that “the person who lives a life in which he only hears and never does is living on the sand of human will…” In other words, without works, no salvation.

p.113 WORKS SALVATION: “If the truths of the Sermon on the Mount don’t define the direction of your life, then you are deluding yourself into thinking you’re a Christian.”

p.115 WORKS SALVATION: “those who claim Christ legitimately have counted the cost.”
{it seems MacArthur doesn't know that eternal life is a free gift of God. Rom 6:23}

p.118 WORKS SALVATION: “And there are plenty more lists of human sins that keep people out of heaven. Who gets in, then? The few who truly repent of their sins; the few who find the narrow gate.”
{Since Christ died for all sins, there are no sins that can keep anyone out of heaven.}

p.132-133 WORKS SALVAITION: “Becoming a Christian means being sick of our sin, longing for forgiveness and rescue from present evil and future hell, and affirming your commitment to the lordship of Christ to the point where you are willing to forsake everything.” Wrong. Becoming a Christian is accomplished by faith in Christ (150 verses condition eternal life on faith alone in Christ alone.

p.135-136 WORKS SALVATION: “Whoever protects his physical safety by denying Christ under pressure will lose his eternal soul.”

p.135 WORKS SALVATION: “But if you’re willing to lose your life for Christ’s sake, you’ll find eternal life in the end.” (my emphasis)

p.145 WORKS SALVATION: In the initial 20 some pages of his book, JM repeatedly quotes Jesus’ command to deny self as part of the criteria for salvation. Here, “Self-denial is giving up creature comforts to work toward a worthy goal.” (italics mine) Clearly, he is teaching salvation by works.

p.149 WORKS SALVATION: “Entrance into the kingdom requires earnest endeavor, untiring energy, and utmost exertion, because Satan is mighty, his demons are powerful, and sin holds us fast.” If this isn’t works, then what is?

p.165 WORKS SALVATION: “…what the gospel is really all about and the sacrifice required…”
{Seems JM is confused about who has made the sacrifice for our salvation: Christ, not us. But his entire emphasis is on our making sacrifices to be saved.

This is just a sample of quotes from his book.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lorship Salvation is at the heart Conditional Security.

The irony of this is that MacArthur himself would strongly reject the idea of loss of salvation.

However, Conditional Security is biblical. Why? Because if it wasn't then a one time prayer is all you need to get into the Kingdom and you can then go back to your old life of sin and not worry about living for Jesus.

This is quite deceptive. The Bible not only teaches eternal security, but what will happen to the believer who rebels against God, even going so far as to cease faith in Him. It's called divine discipline and is referred to in 1 Cor 11:30. It includes sickness, weakness and even physical death.

And, let's be clear about this. This isn't some light slap on the hand kind of discipline. Paul turned over the incestuous man from 1 Cor 5 to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". And we know just what Satan is capable of by reading what he did to Job. He certainly knows how to make Christians suffer, and suffer greatly. Even if others don't see it.

But those who peddle the unbiblical doctrine of loss of salvation will always ignore or dodge the issue of God's hand of discipline and try to present OSAS as being "a license to sin". As if human beings need some stupid license in order to sin.

Since all humans were born with a sin nature, we sure don't need a license.

For those with an open mind and a desire to know what Scripture says about eternal security, I have 5 points directly from Scripture.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Unless someone can explain what each of these verses and passage do teach, if not eternal security, I'd be greatly interested.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The irony of this is that MacArthur himself would strongly reject the idea of loss of salvation.

I am aware of his belief in regards to this topic. Hence, why I said John MacArthur was a Calvinist.

This is quite deceptive. The Bible not only teaches eternal security, but what will happen to the believer who rebels against God, even going so far as to cease faith in Him. It's called divine discipline and is referred to in 1 Cor 11:30. It includes sickness, weakness and even physical death.

No, what you teach is deceptive. You are basically saying we can appear like sheep and yet inwardly we can be like ravenous wolves. Yet, Jesus pointed out that false prophets (false believers) would appear this way in Matthew 7. God cannot agree with a sin and still be saved doctrine because He is holy and righteous. One of the churches in Revelation would have their candle stick removed if they did not repent. For Revelation 2:5 says, 'repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto you quickly, and will remove your lampstand out of its place, except you repent.'

In fact, Jesus defined repentance for us. Jesus said the Ninevites shall rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). In Jonah 3:6-10, we learn that the king of the Ninevites had declared to the people to cry mightily unto God and to turn from their evil and wicked ways (See verse 8). We also learn in verse 10 that God had seen that they had turned from their evil and wicked ways.

1 Corinthians 11 is not teaching that a believer can sin and still be saved. That would be wrong morally to teach something like that and you should know better. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." John uses similar wording in Revelation 21:8. Yet, John says they shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.

As for the rest of what you said: My time is limited at the moment, so I will have to reply later.



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[FreeGrace2]

No, what you teach is deceptive.

If that is true, then why haven't you addressed the 5 points I have given which gives the verses that I believe teach eternal security. If they don't teach eternal security, just what do they teach?

You are basically saying we can appear like sheep and yet inwardly we can be like ravenous wolves.

I'm not interested in fears and insecurities What I have basically said is what the Bible says. Address the 5 points I've given and tell me what they do teach, if not eternal security.

Yet, Jesus pointed out that false prophets (false believers) would appear this way in Matthew 7. God cannot agree with a sin and still be saved doctrine because He is holy and righteous.

Let's clear this up now. You have already admitted that you have not achieved the state of sinless perfection. That means that you still sin. And you have also claimed that you are saved. So your own views are contradictory.

1 Corinthians 11 is not teaching that a believer can sin and still be saved.

What it clearly does NOT teach is loss of salvation. That cannot be found anywhere in Scripture.

That would be wrong morally to teach something like that and you should know better.

Actually, you should know better because I've already told you countless times what I believe. What you keep forgetting to add to OSAS is the other side of it. Those who rebel against God will face His discipline. Which 1 Cor 11:30 communicates clearly: "for this reason, many of you are weak, and sick, and a number have died."

When a person becomes a child of God through faith in Christ, they are subject to the Father's discipline. Heb 12 says so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If that is true, then why haven't you addressed the 5 points I have given which gives the verses that I believe teach eternal security. If they don't teach eternal security, just what do they teach?

First, my time is limited (As I stated in my first post to you). You provided quite a few Scriptures that each need a lengthy explanation with God's Word. Besides, you did not give me a reply to the many verses that I provided in my previous post (that was in reply to you). Second, it is difficult reading the posts from someone who has the Scriptures completely twisted around to such a level so as to defend a doctrine of immorality (that the Bible warns us against). You either on the side of God and His goodness or you are not on His side. For sin is of the devil's kingdom; Not God's Kingdom. Third, I also addressed these points in Scripture with you before. So please do not act like I have not addressed all of them with you before. That would be deceptive on your part to do such a thing, unless you simply cannot remember our previous conversations here on this forum.


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[FreeGrace2]

First, my time is limited (As I stated in my first post to you). You provided quite a few Scriptures that each need a lengthy explanation with God's Word.

No they don't need a lengthy explanation. My explanation for ALL of them is that they ALL teach eternal security.

If they don't teach eternal security, then what do they teach?

it is difficult reading the posts from someone who has the Scriptures completely twisted around to such a level so as to defend a doctrine of immorality (that the Bible warns us against).

Do you mean by quoting directly from the Bible I've "completely twisted around" them? How does that work? Your charge is totally bogus.

You either on the side of God and His goodness or you are not on His side. For sin is of the devil's kingdom; Not God's Kingdom. Third, I also addressed these points in Scripture with you before.

You failed to support your view.

So please do not act like I have not addressed all of them with you before.

You have NOT addressed the 5 reasons I have given that support eternal security. Maybe a passing comment on some of them. But you've NOT addressed them by explaining what they do teach, if not eternal security.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And, let's be clear about this. This isn't some light slap on the hand kind of discipline. Paul turned over the incestuous man from 1 Cor 5 to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". And we know just what Satan is capable of by reading what he did to Job. He certainly knows how to make Christians suffer, and suffer greatly. Even if others don't see it.

In 1 Corinthians 5, the man who committed sexual immorality in the church was kicked out of having fellowship with the body of believers because he was an unrepentant sinner. We are told in Scripture to pray for a person who is struggling with a sin (i.e. if they are confessing such a sin and they are striving to overcome it).

13 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall deliver the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit."
(James 5:13-18).

Here in James we see that this man was not kicked out of the church. He was sick because of his sins but he was willing to confess his faults whereby he would be taken before the elders and prayed over.

In 1 Corinthians 5, this man was kicked out of the body and needed to be saved by repenting of his sins so that he could then return to the body. That is why he was allowed to return later (2 Corinthians 2:7). The Scriptures say that the destruction of his flesh was for the purpose that his spirit MAY be saved on the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. This was not a guarantee that he was going to saved. The Scripture uses the word "MAY" (See 1 Corinthians 5:5). His salvation was contingent upon him repenting of his sins (with a Godly sorrow) on the day He confessed His sins on the day with His Lord Jesus Christ (Who is everyone's advocate).

If we were to continue reading in James 5, we would see that if one turns away or errs from the truth and a fellow brother were to convert them back to the faith, they are to be informed that they are converting a sinner from the error of their ways and they are in essence saving that person's soul from spiritual death and hiding a multitide of sins. But if you believe in Eternal Security whereby all sin was forgiven, past, present, and future, then there would be no need to re-cleanse or hide anyone's sin again. But the Scriptures say,

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he who converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
(James 5:19-20).

But those who peddle the unbiblical doctrine of loss of salvation will always ignore or dodge the issue of God's hand of discipline and try to present OSAS as being "a license to sin". As if human beings need some stupid license in order to sin.

We've already been over this before. The whole purpose of discipline, correction, and chastening is to get you to STOP sinning and NOT so as to remain in your sins. For it is why a master corrects his dog in pooping on the carpet. It is to get the animal to stop pooping on the carpet. A dog owner does not correct his dog on pooping on the carpet with the intention that they will continue to do so. Correction is for the purpose that they will be corrected in behavior and set in order. Yet, you believe that God will just save us even if we were to die in certain horrible unrepentant sins like lying, lusting after a woman, etc. But that is not what the Scriptures teach.

For all who do iniquity (or sin) in Christ's Kingdom will be removed by Christ's angels and cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42).

Since all humans were born with a sin nature, we sure don't need a license.

Man has free will and he can operate contrary to his nature. Adam was created with a good nature and yet by his free will he was able to act contrary to that good nature by sinning. Men and women today act contrary to their nature in regards to being intimate with each other. Yet, we know that man has certain body parts that only fit with a woman. It is how God designed things within nature. Yet, men and women act contrary to that natural order of how God created things. This is again is of their own free will. Believers today also have free will despite having a changed and new nature from being born again spiritually. Free will determines what path a person is going to take. God does not force salvation upon a person once they made a one time decision in accepting Him. A person must choose this day every day in serving the Lord or not serving the Lord.

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[Bible Highlighter]

First, Paul described ... justification (Rom 3:24) as gift... of God.

Like all good gifts in this world, we have to take care of those gifts, otherwise we can forfeit such a gift. For example, I can receive a car as a gift, but if I did not take care of such a gift and I ignored the traffic laws, and ignored the general maintenance on such a car, then I won't have that car so as to drive any more. I can receive a soul mate from God as a gift, but if I did not care to do anything to further that relationship then I would be squandering such a gift. Good gifts have to be taken care of.

As for being justified freely by his grace in Romans 3:24, this is talking about initial salvation in coming to the Lord. For in Romans 3:1, Paul is addressing the heresy of those who were trying to be circumcised so as to have initial salvation. For in the Old Testament, if a Gentile wanted to be a part of God's Kingdom, they had to join God's people (the Jews) by being circumcised. So Romans 3 is talking about those who are trying to be justified by the Law of Moses. It is talking about intial salvation (Justification) and not Sanctification.

For we are ultimately saved by God's grace. For a person can be forgiven of their sin if they confess their sins (1 John 1:9). But this goes hand in hand with forsaking one's sin, too (Which is a part of the promise to God in your prayer that you will not sin again). 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin. For Proverbs 28:13 says, "Whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy." This is also in line with 1 John 2:3-6 that says,

3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Scripture says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). So a believer can't be a liar by saying they know him while they are not keeping his commandments.


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[Bible Highlighter]

First, Paul described ... justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) as gift... of God.

Well, when you read Romans 5, you also have to read Romans 6.

For who is he that is freed from sin?

The book of Romans says,

"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:7).

What is the result of having been freed from sin?

Becoming a servant or slave to righteousness.

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:18).

For when one is in sin, he is free from righteousness (Romans 6:20). However, we are to be "slaves to righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

The believer's ultimate goal is sinlessness (Matthew 5:48) (1 John 2:1).
This is why Paul says, "For it says,
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (Romans 6:12-13).
For there is a way of escape for every temptation (1 Corinthians 10:13); And there is a path of forgiveness if we do sin (1 John 1:9), and even the Lord Jesus Christ demanded of two people to: "sin no more." Even Paul said be ye angry and sin not and give not place to the devil.

I mean, I don't know how you can read the Bible and ignore all the obvious warnings within it; Unless of course you do not want to see them.

Oh, and denying yourself is a part of being a disciple or believer in Jesus Christ.

For Jesus said,

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:23-24).

Paul says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11).

Paul also says in Romans 6:1, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's reply to that answer is, "God forbid." He says you will yield yourselves servants to whom ye will obey. Whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

John says, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:7-8).

John says do not be deceived on the matter that he that DOES righteousness is righteous. John continues and says he that commits sin is of the devil.

John also says, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

In John 3:20, John says everyone who does evil hates the light.


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[Bible Highlighter]

First, Paul described ... eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gift... of God.
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

First, in Romans 6:23, the type of punishment for sin is spiritual death and not physical death. This applies to both the unbeliever and the believer. For when God told Adam that if he were to eat of the fruit he would die that day. Did Adam physically die the very day he ate of the wrong tree? No. Adam died spiritually that day. This was a man of God who once had fellowship with God and he died spiritually by commiting just one sin. The same applies to believers today. For God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) (Romans 2:11). In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death for a reason (Revelation 21:8). For it is related to the First Death. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you deny him before others he will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says that you can be condemned by your words (Matthew 12:37). John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (or anyone who hates his brother) (1 John 3:15). John says all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul then lists sins such as lying, fornication, murder, hate, idolatry, theft, etc (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul also says the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:5-8). John lists similar sins for people who would commit them and then he says that they will face the second death known as the Lake of Fire as a result (Revelation 21:8).

Second, the free gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord. The word "in" is saying you need to abide "IN" Christ in order to have eternal life because Jesus is the source of our salvation and life. For Jesus said, I am the bread of life. In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, we learn that Jesus alone possesses immortality. Most versions of Eternal Security falsely teach that you can be out of fellowship with Jesus and still be saved.

However, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God or Christ and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

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Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

In Romans 11:29, Paul is clearly referencing unsaved Israel.

28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved for the sake of their ancestors.
29 For God’s gifts and calling never change.
30 For just as you disobeyed God in the past but now have received his mercy because of their disobedience, "
(Romans 11:28-30)
(International Standard Version).​

This means that Paul is referencing unsaved Israel in regards to God's gifts and calling and He is not talking to the faithful saint or believer. This means Paul is talking about initial salvation (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (i.e. A believers continued walk with God in holiness). Also, it is true that God gifts can never change. But the gifts AND CALLING of God cannot be undone or changed is based on certain conditions. Or do you believe there are no conditions for a person in coming to the faith? For is not the "calling" of God include certain conditions? Why are you thinking that the gift of God comes with no conditions, if the calling of God comes with certain conditions? Or do you believe in Universal Salvation (i.e. that everybody is going to be saved including unbelievers)?


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Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).



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[Bible Highlighter]

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24).

When you read John 5:24, you have to read this in context to the rest of Scripture.

Here is what John 5:24 says,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

However, Jesus also said blessed are those who hear his Word and obey it (Luke 11:28).
Jesus also said,
26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

In John chapter 8, Jesus says, if you continue in my word, you are my disciples (John 8:31). Jesus said to the Pharisees that the reason why they wanted to kill him was because His Word had no place within them (John 8:37). John 12:48 says anyone who receives not his words will be judged on the last day.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

If you are to pay close attention to the verse above, rejecting Jesus and receiving not his words are tied together with being judged on the last day. Obviously you cannot believe we can reject Jesus and be saved. So we have to conclude that by John 12:48 that it is saying you can be judged by receiving not his words just as it would be in rejecting Jesus. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say? (Luke 6:46). For Paul says it is possible to deny the Lord by a lack showing any kind of good work. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).


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Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The context of not being plucked out of the Father's hand is talking to the type of sheep who FOLLOW Jesus in verse 27.

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

In other words, this is not talking about rebellious sheep who are being dragged by their necks on leashes here. These type of sheep willingly FOLLOW Jesus. That is the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

I see this passage as being spoken one of two ways.

The first: Paul here is using the word "sleep" with having two different meanings (i.e. the first use of the word "sleep" referring to "sinfulness" and second use of the word "sleep" referring to "physical death"). For Paul is talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture here. For in the Rapture, they that sleep in Christ (i.e. Those believers who are dead physically and who are in Abraham's Bosom currently) will rise first, and then they that remain alive in Christ will be caught up in the air to meet Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

In the second: Paul is talking about those who live in sinfulness can miss out on the Rapture due to their sinfulness and yet they can still have an opportunity to then live holy and righteous afterwards so as to have another chance or opportunity to serve God and thereby live with the LORD (as a result).

For obviously many Eternal Security Proponents who miss out on the Pre-Rapture will wonder why they are still here on this Earth while others were taken up. This will no doubt be a time of re-examing of themselves if they have not seared their conscience with a hot iron (i.e. they have completely shut off their moral compass to a point of no return).


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Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

That is not true. Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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[FreeGrace2]

In 1 Corinthians 5, the man who committed sexual immorality in the church was kicked out of having fellowship with the body of believers because he was an unrepentant sinner. We are told in Scripture to pray for a person who is struggling with a sin (i.e. if they are confessing such a sin and they are striving to overcome it).

Did you purposely ignore v.5? It tells us exactly what was going to happen to him. Physical death through Satan. Do you not think that Satan knows exactly how to make believers suffer? Of course he does.

13 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall deliver the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit."
(James 5:13-18).

Here in James we see that this man was not kicked out of the church. He was sick because of his sins but he was willing to confess his faults whereby he would be taken before the elders and prayed over.

What does any of this have to do with our discussion. I didn't include this passage in the 5 reasons why the Bible teaches eternal security.

In 1 Corinthians 5, this man was kicked out of the body and needed to be saved by repenting of his sins so that he could then return to the body.

You have completely misunderstood v.5 then. There is nothing about "needing to be saved".

That is why he was allowed to return later (2 Corinthians 2:7). The Scriptures say that the destruction of his flesh was for the purpose that his spirit MAY be saved on the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. This was not a guarantee that he was going to saved.

Actually, it is.

The Scripture uses the word "MAY" (See 1 Corinthians 5:5). His salvation was contingent upon him repenting of his sins (with a Godly sorrow) on the day He confessed His sins on the day with His Lord Jesus Christ (Who is everyone's advocate).

You are free to misunderstand any verse you want.

What I'm waiting for is your specific response to my 5 reasons for believing that Scripture teaches eternal security. The wording in each verse and passage is clear enough.

So, if none of these verses teach eternal security, the onus is on you to prove it by exegeting each reason and showing me what they actually teach.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Like all good gifts in this world, we have to take care of those gifts, otherwise we can forfeit such a gift.

You keep making unsubstantiated claims. Where does the Bible teach that the gift of eternal life, or salvation, or justification can be forfeited? All you've done is make huge assumptions that you can't defend from Scripture.