What is Lordship Salvation and is it false doctrine?

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"First, Paul described ... eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gift... of God.
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

First, in Romans 6:23, the type of punishment for sin is spiritual death and not physical death. This applies to both the unbeliever and the believer. For when God told Adam that if he were to eat of the fruit he would die that day. Did Adam physically die the very day he ate of the wrong tree? No. Adam died spiritually that day. This was a man of God who once had fellowship with God and he died spiritually by commiting just one sin. The same applies to believers today. For God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) (Romans 2:11). In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death for a reason (Revelation 21:8). For it is related to the First Death. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you deny him before others he will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says that you can be condemned by your words (Matthew 12:37). John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (or anyone who hates his brother) (1 John 3:15). John says all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul then lists sins such as lying, fornication, murder, hate, idolatry, theft, etc (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul also says the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:5-8). John lists similar sins for people who would commit them and then he says that they will face the second death known as the Lake of Fire as a result (Revelation 21:8).

Second, the free gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord. The word "in" is saying you need to abide "IN" Christ in order to have eternal life because Jesus is the source of our salvation and life. For Jesus said, I am the bread of life. In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, we learn that Jesus alone possesses immortality. Most versions of Eternal Security falsely teach that you can be out of fellowship with Jesus and still be saved.

However, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God or Christ and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief....

Nothing you posted here refutes the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God (6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29).

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God"."

In Romans 11:29, Paul is clearly referencing unsaved Israel.

28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved for the sake of their ancestors.
29 For God’s gifts and calling never change.
30 For just as you disobeyed God in the past but now have received his mercy because of their disobedience, "
(Romans 11:28-30)
(International Standard Version).​

This means that Paul is referencing unsaved Israel in regards to God's gifts and calling and He is not talking to the faithful saint or believer.

Where did Paul describe anything in ch 11 as a gift of God FOR Israel? He didn't. So you have just made another huge assumption. You have zero facts to back up your claims.

God's gift to Israel is eternal life. We know this from what Jesus told unbelieving Jews in John 5:39 - You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me

Then He said this in v.40 - and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Jesus was pointing out to the unbelieving Jews that He was prophesied in the Scriptures but they rejected that teaching. So, eternal life is a gift from God to all who believe. And that gift is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

Good grief! Let's just stay with CONTEXT, shall we?

The context for the condition for being sealed with (not "having the seal of God) the Holy Spirit is to believe in Christ, as v.13 plainly SAYS.

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel ofyour salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

You've taken John 6:27 totally out of context and have tried to force it into Eph 1. For shame. That's anything but scholarly.

In fact, what is a guarantee?

From God's perspective, it means it will absolutely happen. Why? Because God cannot lie.
Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

The Greek word for "hope" here isn't "wishful thinking" as is generally meant in today's culture. It means a "confident expectation". It means assurance. That is eternal security.

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”.

Who cares about "fine print". News flash: there isn't any "fine print" in Scripture. You're view of Scripture is really beyond amazing.

If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

All of this is totally irrelevant to the promises or guarantees of God. He cannot lie.

Your use of pitiful human examples don't even come close to being parallel with God.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

More irrelevance. The Holy Spirit was never given to all believers in the OT. Only a few were endued with Him, and that was for special function.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Yep. David could have lost the Holy Spirit. That CANNOT happen today. Why not? Because Jesus taught that when the Holy Spirit would come, He would be with us FOREVER.

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

More irrelevance.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

More irrelevance. Please show any verse that teaches that the sealing with the Holy Spirit via Eph 1:13 can or has been broken.

Nothing you've shown thus far supports your claim.

I know you think all the verses you've quoted support your claim, but they do not. Not even close.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24)."

When you read John 5:24, you have to read this in context to the rest of Scripture.

You mean it takes more Scripture to "interpret" what Jesus said? Nonsense. He spoke clearly enough. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Only one condition; believe.

Here is what John 5:24 says,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

However, Jesus also said blessed are those who hear his Word and obey it (Luke 11:28).
Jesus also said,
26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

It's just amazing how you move completely away from context and into the weeds in order to try to support your claims.

Why do you think Luke 11:28 relates to john 5:24? Just because both verses use some of the same words? Context is much more than being about "same words".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

The context of not being plucked out of the Father's hand is talking to the type of sheep who FOLLOW Jesus in verse 27.

Quite wrong. The context begins back in v.9 where Jesus notes how one is saved: by entering "the gate", which is Himself. He was using figurative language to communicate that one is saved by believing in Him. That's what "enter through Him" means.

So, it is the saved people who are given eternal life, which we know from what He said back in 5:24. And all who havereceived eternal life WILL NOT PERISH. 10:28

 

[FreeGrace2]

I thoroughly analyzed 1 Thess 5:4-10.

I see this passage as being spoken one of two ways.

The first: Paul here is using the word "sleep" with having two different meanings (i.e. the first use of the word "sleep" referring to "sinfulness" and second use of the word "sleep" referring to "physical death"). For Paul is talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture here. For in the Rapture, they that sleep in Christ (i.e. Those believers who are dead physically and who are in Abraham's Bosom currently) will rise first, and then they that remain alive in Christ will be caught up in the air to meet Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

How about we stay IN CONTEXT. All you've done is drag the word "sleep" from 4:16 and force it into 5:4-10. Not cool.

Paul specifically defines what he means by "sleep" in the passage, and I explained it.

If you disagree with my analysis, then take my points one by one and explain why and how they are wrong.

In the second: Paul is talking about those who live in sinfulness can miss out on the Rapture due to their sinfulness and yet they can still have an opportunity to then live holy and righteous afterwards so as to have another chance or opportunity to serve God and thereby live with the LORD (as a result).

The context (v.4-10) doesn't even mention the rapture. So again, your analysis completely misses the point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation."

That is not true. Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

It seems you have quite a knack for misreading or misunderstanding what others post. My point was about losing salvation, NOT falling away from the faith.

Once again, you, like all your brothers who think one can lose salvation, are making a huge assumption that falling away from the faith results in falling out of salvation.

Yet, again, there are NO verses that teach such an idea. If there were, I'd have been fed it by now. None of the verses listed here are relevant to my point, which is about loss of salvation.

I KNOW believers can fall away from the faith. That's irrelevant to my 5th reason.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).

News flash!! There are NO verses in the Bible that teach that one can forfeit or willingly throw away their salvation. Or that one can lose their salvation.

You've still got ZERO verses to support your claim.

In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

I'm not going to address each of these, and I reject your faulty analysis. Just quote any of these that actually SAY that the person lost their salvation. I will prove to you that you've just made more huge assumptions about what the verse actually says.

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

This is more huge assumptions. Proven by your "potential" adjective. Actually, you have no idea.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, you tried to refute my 5 reasons the Bible teaches eternal security.

You went totally out of context in order to try to support your claims.

You ignored the plain words of Scripture.

You failed to address all of my reasons. For example, in 1 Thess 5:4-10, I not only quoted each of the verses, I gave analysis on what each verse taught. And you didn't even bother to address my analysis and show what they instead teach.

That's how to refute someone. Show how and why their claim or point is wrong. You haven't done that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not read any of your replies back here.

Why?

Well, I am not going to keep going back and forth with you. I have stated my reasons with Scripture why your interpretations are wrong in regards to your five points (of which you kept gloating before that I was not addressing such points - when obviously such a reply with Scripture requires time to do so). Anyways, your belief not only ignores many plainly written verses, but your belief also ignores morality. Believe what you like. The Scriptures stand for themselves; And anyone here can read them and seek out the truth of what I have said with God's Word. I am confident enough in my explanation that if someone is honestly seeking the truth, they will have no need to read any further than what I have explained with God's Word.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not read any of your replies back here.

Why?

Well, I am not going to keep going back and forth with you.

I know the reason why. You have failed to refute anything I've posted about the 5 reasons the Bible teaches eternal security and I illuminated your errors in your responses to them.

One does need to know when to quit.

I have stated my reasons with Scripture why your interpretations are wrong in regards to your five points (of which you kept gloating before that I was not addressing such points - when obviously such a reply with Scripture requires time to do so).

I haven't gloated as you falsely charge. I have pointed out your failure to refute my points.

You have shown how you have completely misunderstood much Scripture, all the way back to our previous discussions of 1 Jn 1:8, which clearly refutes your view and you don't even know it. You think it somehow supports your view when it refutes it clearly.

So I'm not surprised at how you "analyze" various verses. But I am sad about it. I'm sad that you've missed so much of what God's word says.

Anyways, your belief not only ignores many plainly written verses, but your belief also ignores morality.

In fact, the "plainly written verses" all support my claims, not yours.

You've failed to quote even 1 verse that "plainly states" that salvation can be lost.

Believe what you like.

That's what you've done. I believe what the Bible says.

The Scriptures stand for themselves;

They sure do. And my 5 reasons all prove that the Bible teaches eternal security.

And anyone here can read them and seek out the truth of what I have said with God's Word.

And they won't find any truth from what you've said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I am still not going to read anymore of what you are writing here.
What I stated with Scripture stands on it's own.
And I am confident enough in it that people can be led to the truth by it.
There is no need to endlessly go back and forth over the same thing.

Anyways, may God bless you and please be well.



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