LDS Did Joseph Smith and the 1830 BOM plagairize the 1823 book "View of the Hebrews"?

[ToBeLoved]

We talked about this a while ago.

But in short, the Hebrew is a very wordy and lengthy kind of written language. Therefore, the prophets that wrote the history on gold plates used an Egyptian style of writing that was less wordy and to the point. Over time, in order for this Egyptian writing to be even more applicable to writing on metal, the prophets modified the language into what is called Reformed Egyptian.

Why Egyption? Wasn't Lehi and his family Israelites? Yes they were Israelites, but they did business, trading with the Egyptians, and so they were taught the Egyptian language. Here is the 2nd verse of the entire BOM,which says:
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

The reason for writing in Egyptian is for the ease of writing, especially on metal.

Well at that time I didn't realize that the claim is that Indians were of the 12 Tribes of Israel. That changes things for me.

Now it seems even odder that they would have written in a different language.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Well at that time I didn't realize that the claim is that Indians were of the 12 Tribes of Israel. That changes things for me.

Now it seems even odder that they would have written in a different language.

I've written on this some time ago, if you were new I'd repeat it the whole thing but I'll just give a short version.

The first set of people who come are not Hebrew but descendants of Noah who leave sometime after the Tower. The second set were descendants of Joseph of Egypt. These two groups enter marry and there are also many other people living around them. The Hebrew Nephites are eventually killed off, their cities destroyed, their langue is gone and within a short time they are completely forgotten.

 

[Ironhold]

In other words.

Sick of insults. Christians are much kinder and open to actual conversation.

Actually, we're more than willing to talk.

The problem has been that people aren't willing to listen.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Actually, we're more than willing to talk.

The problem has been that people aren't willing to listen.

We listen. You just insult people in every post.

It's like you think we should all change our minds. But that isn't how things work.

So if we don't agree that equals we don't listen. That's where the disconnect is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

...

 

[BigDaddy4]

We talked about this a while ago.

But in short, the Hebrew is a very wordy and lengthy kind of written language. Therefore, the prophets that wrote the history on gold plates used an Egyptian style of writing that was less wordy and to the point. Over time, in order for this Egyptian writing to be even more applicable to writing on metal, the prophets modified the language into what is called Reformed Egyptian.

Why Egyption? Wasn't Lehi and his family Israelites? Yes they were Israelites, but they did business, trading with the Egyptians, and so they were taught the Egyptian language. Here is the 2nd verse of the entire BOM,which says:
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

The reason for writing in Egyptian is for the ease of writing, especially on metal.

Odd that the Jewish people were in Egypt for 400 years before Moses led them out, and yet not a trace of Egyptian (or "reformed Egyptian") language worked its way into their culture and language. Odder still is the fact that the Jewish people wrote on scrolls for the longest time, even up to and beyond the time of Jesus, and not metal, since there is no logical reason for them to do so. Even more odd than that is the fact that no remnants of the so-called "reformed Egyptian" have been found in anything outside of what Joseph Smith claims there is.

 

[withwonderingawe]

We listen. You just insult people in every post.

It's like you think we should all change our minds. But that isn't how things work.

So if we don't agree that equals we don't listen. That's where the disconnect is.

I think that we feel that you don't really read what we post, we seem to have to repeat things to you often and then you miss understand what we are saying. We just get a little frustrate with you.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Odd that the Jewish people were in Egypt for 400 years before Moses led them out, and yet not a trace of Egyptian (or "reformed Egyptian") language worked its way into their culture and language. Odder still is the fact that the Jewish people wrote on scrolls for the longest time, even up to and beyond the time of Jesus, and not metal, since there is no logical reason for them to do so. Even more odd than that is the fact that no remnants of the so-called "reformed Egyptian" have been found in anything outside of what Joseph Smith claims there is.

There really is something called "reformed Egyptian" it's like the difference between printing and cursive, the Egyptians had their formal writing for their death scrolls but then the scribes had a shorthand they used to take notes.

" The Demotic script was referred to by the Egyptians as sš n šˤ.t "document writing", which the 2nd century scholar Clement of Alexandria called επιστολογραφική (epistolographikē) "letter writing", while early Western scholars, notably Thomas Young, formerly referred to it as "Enchorial Egyptian". The script was used for more than a thousand years, and during that time a number of developmental stages occurred. It is written and read from right to left, while earlier hieroglyphics could be written from top to bottom, left to right, or right to left." wik

In The Book of Mormon the claim is they spoke Hebrew but wrote it in Egyptian symbols, as time went on they created their own shorthand and their Hebrew also changed as they enter married with the peoples around them. Moroni wrote no one knows our langue and he was the last one.

They actually wrote on waxed tablets but here's some Pyrgi gold plates. Photo (C) 2014, William J. Hamblin, used with permission. These plates are religious texts dating to around 500 BC in Italy; one is written in Phoenician (= Paleo-Hebrew), and two in Etruscan. They are now in the Etruscan Museum in the Villa Giulia in Rome. The Phoenician text is in the middle

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think that we feel that you don't really read what we post, we seem to have to repeat things to you often and then you miss understand what we are saying. We just get a little frustrate with you.

Well. We all feel that way on forums because writing is not an easy way to communicate complex subjects especially when multiple people are holding conversations, but overall I think that you get frustrated because you don't change our minds.

 

[random person]

unfortunately i cant cut and paste articles but here is two important reads:

plagiarism and mormonism - http://20truths.info/mormon/plagiarism.html

archeology vs mormonism - http://www.christianarsenal.com/Christian_Arsenal/Archeology_vs_Mormon.html

two very informative articles. both the national geographic society and the smithsonian institute have denounced the bom as a genuine archeological article!

 

[mmksparbud]

unfortunately i cant cut and paste articles but here is two important reads:

plagiarism and mormonism - http://20truths.info/mormon/plagiarism.html

archeology vs mormonism - http://www.christianarsenal.com/Christian_Arsenal/Archeology_vs_Mormon.html

two very informative articles. both the national geographic society and the smithsonian institute have denounced the bom as a genuine archeological article!

Can't click on to the 2nd link--However--that top link is full of interesting stuff----wow!

 

[random person]

Can't click on to the 2nd link--However--that top link is full of interesting stuff----wow!

i dont know why i have tried to fix it several times now however google "christian arsenal archeology vs mormonism" the link should work? tell me what results you get. it is lengthy article packed with archeological evidence against the bom claims including an letter from the smithsonian institute seeking the names of mormon culprits that defamed institute's great name. try posting the link yourself maybe you will get better results....

clueless...

 

[random person]

mormons vs national geographic society & smithsonian institute via quotes - http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_migr.htm

 

[mmksparbud]

I finally got it---see if this works. Are there any Mormon rebuttals to this???


http://www.christianarsenal.com/Christian_Arsenal/Archeology_vs_Mormon.html

 

[random person]

I finally got it---see if this works. Are there any Mormon rebuttals to this???


http://www.christianarsenal.com/Christian_Arsenal/Archeology_vs_Mormon.html

thank you! thank you! it finally works!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I finally got it---see if this works. Are there any Mormon rebuttals to this???


http://www.christianarsenal.com/Christian_Arsenal/Archeology_vs_Mormon.html

This is really powerful. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

why can't I post here, just trying some different ways to do this

Okay it worked

 

[withwonderingawe]

I’m going to give you all the following information as a case study in how anti-propagandist work. This website 20 Truths About Mormonism is signed by someone calling himself Jim Day PHD. The latest date I can find on the site is 2012, that’s important. There is some information he is not giving you.

Lucy’s book went through several different hands so depending upon which edition one has it changes. There were two copies of her transcript one more detailed than the other. This first one was published in Liver Pool and the second more detailed not till 1901.

Day choose to quote from the Liver Pool edition;

“Joseph's mother recorded that long before Joseph had received the gold plates he was well aware of the stories contained therein:

"During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would to with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 85)”

And then he says;
“Joseph told these stories well before his brother Alvin's death in November, 1823. Yet he never got the plates until September, 1827. Where did all this specific information come from? We have no record of these kinds of details being given to Joseph through his annual interviews with Moroni. Where else but from Joseph's fertile imagination and the source materials to which he had access?”

So the writer wants you to believe Joseph was making up these stories long before he wrote/translated The Book of Mormon.

Now here is the quote from Lucy's actual 1845 manuscript;

Now said he[,] Father and Mother the angel of the Lord says that we must be careful not to proclaim these things or to mention them abroad For we do not any of us know the wickedness of the world which is so sinful that when we get the plates they will want to kill us for the sake of the gold if they know we had <have> them...by sunset [we] were ready to be seated and give our atten undivided attention to Josephs recitals...From this time forth Joseph continued to receive instructions from time to time and every evening we gathered our children togather [together]...In the course of our evening conversations Joseph would give us some of the most ammusing [amusing] recitals which could be immagined [imagined]. he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress their man[n]er of traveling the animals which they rode The cities that were built by them the structure of their buildings with every particular of their mode of warfare their religious worship as particularly as though he had spent his life with them...The angel informed him at one time that he might make an effort to obtain the plates <on> the <22nd of the> ensueing september.…”


So these stories were told after he had seen the Angel Moroni and it is felt that Joseph was given numerous visions of the people he wrote about in the Book of Mormon.

There is a second source for this in the Autobiography of Wandle Mace, (1809-1890) who became a friend of the family and visited them often in Nauvoo. Wandle had joined the Church after his extremely ill and dyeing son was healed by Parley Pratt. He writes;

“…In these conversations, mother [Lucy] Smith, as she was familiarly called, related much of their family history. She told how their family would all be seated around the room while they all listened to Joseph with the greatest interest as he taught them the pure principles of the gospel as revealed to him by the angels, and of his glorious vision of the Father and the Son, when the father said to him as he pointed to his companion, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him."

She said, "during the day our sons would endeavor to get through their work as early as possible, and say, `Mother', have supper early, so we can have a long evening to listen to Joseph. Sometimes Joseph would describe the appearance of the Nephites, their mode of dress and warfare, their implements of husbandry, etc, and many things he had seen in vision. Truly ours was a happy family, although persecuted by preachers, who declared there was no more vision, the canon of scripture was full, and no more revelation was needed." But Joseph had seen a vision and must declare it.”

Here’s my point sitting right here on the same internet Jim Day PHD has accesses to I could look this all up in a matter of a few minuets.

Mr. Day is simply lying to you! He use to be a member of the Church, he use to have the Holy Spirit with him but when the Spirit leaves the devil rushes in!

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperS...aperSummary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845&p=93

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/WMace.html

 

[withwonderingawe]

I'm getting this thing coming up asking me if I'm a robot caller???

 

[mmksparbud]

Background[edit]

Shortly following the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, and into 1845, Lucy Mack Smith dictated her recollections and family story to Nauvoo schoolteacher Martha Jane Coray. Coray worked with her husband to compile these books of notes and other sources into a manuscript, which was then copied.

One copy was given to Brigham Young, and the other stayed with Lucy Smith in Nauvoo. Eventually, LDS Apostle Orson Pratt obtained Lucy's copy and published it in 1853, to great controversy.[1]

Brigham Young's opposition[edit]

After its publication, Brigham Young declared the book to be a "tissue of lies" and wanted corrections made.[2] In the Millennial Star in 1855, he said,

There are many mistakes in the work… I have had a written copy of those sketches in my possession for several years, and it contains much of the history of the Prophet Joseph. Should it ever be deemed best to publish these sketches, it will not be done until after they are carefully corrected.[3]

In 1865, Young ordered the church members to have their copies destroyed. There was no "corrected" version until the church published a 1901 serialization and 1902 book, which were done under the direction of Joseph F. Smith, Lucy’s grandson.[1]

Later historians theorized that Young opposed the book because of his own conflicts with its publisher, Orson Pratt,[4] as well as the book's favorable references to William Smith, Young's opponent and Lucy's son.[2] Lucy Smith portrayed the Smith family as the legitimate leaders of the church, which Young may also have seen as a challenge to his leadership.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Joseph_Smith_by_His_Mother