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Featured LDS Did Joseph Smith and the 1830 BOM plagairize the 1823 book "View of the Hebrews"?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by random person, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    I have read both and they are similar in as much as the bible and the lord of the rings are
     
  3. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Oh, wow---Never heard of this one---have to investigate---thank you.
     
  4. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    So far--very interesting.


    http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/View_of_the_Hebrews

    There are no records which indicate that Joseph Smith came into contact with the View of the Hebrews during the period of time that he was translating the Book of Mormon


    Joseph Smith quoted View of the Hebrews as supporting the Book of Mormon
    There was, however, a reference to View of the Hebrews within Joseph Smith's lifetime, but it came from the prophet himself. In an article published in the Times and Seasons on June 1, 1842, Joseph quoted View of the Hebrews in support of the Book of Mormon:

    If such may have been the fact, that a part of the Ten Tribes came over to America, in the way we have supposed, leaving the cold regions of Assareth behind them in quest of a milder climate, it would be natural to look for tokens of the presence of Jews of some sort, along countries adjacent to the Atlantic. In order to this, we shall here make an extract from an able work: written exclusively on the subject of the Ten Tribes having come from Asia by the way of Bherings Strait, by the Rev. Ethan Smith, Pultney, Vt., who relates as follows: "Joseph Merrick, Esq., a highly respectable character in the church at Pittsfield, gave the following account: That in 1815, he was leveling some ground under and near an old wood shed, standing on a place of his, situated on (Indian Hill)... [Joseph then discusses the supposed phylacteries found among Amerindians, citing View of the Hebrews p. 220, 223.][3]
    It strains credulity to claim that Joseph drew attention to the work from which he derived most of his ideas. Why would he call attention to the source of his forgery?

    “By the Gift and Power of God”


    Joseph Smith reported that on the evening of September 21, 1823, while he prayed in the upper room of his parents’ small log home in Palmyra, New York, an angel who called himself Moroni appeared and told Joseph that “God had a work for [you] to do.”2 He informed Joseph that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.” The book could be found in a hill not far from the Smith family farm. This was no ordinary history, for it contained “the fullness of the everlasting Gospel as delivered by the Savior.”
    Joseph received the plates in September 1827 and the following spring, in Harmony, Pennsylvania, began translating them in earnest, with Emma and his friend Martin Harris serving as his main scribes. The resulting English transcription, known as the Book of Lehi and referred to by Joseph Smith as written on 116 pages, was subsequently lost or stolen. As a result, Joseph Smith was rebuked by the Lord and lost the ability to translate for a short time.6

    Joseph began translating again in 1829, and almost all of the present Book of Mormon text was translated during a three-month period between April and June of that year

    Both Ethan Smith and Oliver Cowdery lived in Poultney, Vermont while Smith served as the pastor of the church that Oliver Cowdery's family attended
    Critics postulate a link between Ethan Smith and Oliver Cowdery, since both men lived in Poultney, Vermont while Smith served as the pastor of the church that Oliver Cowdery's family attended at the time that View of the Hebrews was being written. Beyond speculation based upon this circumstantial evidence, there is no indication of a connection between View of the Hebrews, Oliver Cowdery, and the Book of Mormon.



    View of the Hebrews
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    View of the Hebrews is an 1823 book written by Ethan Smith, a United States Congregationalist minister, who argued that Native Americans were descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. This was a relatively common view during the early nineteenth century, as most Europeans and Americans had a view of history as biblical.[1] Numerous commentators on Mormon history, from LDS Church general authority B. H. Roberts to Fawn M. Brodie, biographer of Joseph Smith, have noted similarities in the content of View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon, which was first published in 1830, seven years after Ethan Smith's book.

    Modern publication[edit]
    A photographic reprint of the 1823 edition of View of the Hebrews was published by Arno Press in 1977. The text was published in 1980 by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, with an introduction by the latter. In 1985, a scholarly edition of the work was published by University of Illinois Press, and a second edition was published by Signature Books in 1992.[19] Brigham Young University published an edition in 1996.[20]

     
  6. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb3.shtml#intro

    Apologist Jeff Lindsay looked at this allegation some time ago, and found that the differences between the works vastly outweigh the similarities.

    In fact, BYU is so convinced that the two works have nothing to do with each other that at the time this page was written they had the work in print so that people can see it for themselves.
     
  7. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a big problem with the time line.

    1, The first edition of View of the Hebrews was printed in July of 1823

    2, Joseph was talking about his vision with Moroni in Sep of 1823, while living in Palmyra New York, he was 18 years old. He did not know of the existence of Ethan Smith nor had he ever heard of his book.

    3, He was in South Bainbridge New York in Jan of 1827 getting married. Everyone there knew he claimed to be waiting to receive the plates. In Sept of that year he was given them and again many people knew he had them.

    4, In Feb of 1828 Martin Harris began helping him translate and takes some of the characters to Charles Anthon. Martin then lost the first 116 pages or we should say they were stolen from him.

    In July 1828 The Lord took the plates away from Joseph and let him sit for a while for disobeying him. They were returned sometime before Sept 22 of that year. Emma then began helping Joseph with the translation. There is also some handwriting of 3 unidentified scribes who were helping.

    5, It’s not until April of 1829 in Harmony Pennsylvania that Joseph meets Oliver Cowdery for the first time in his life. Oliver had had a spiritual manifestation that he was to help Joseph. From the time Oliver got there it took three months to complete The Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is long enough and detailed enough that it would have taken years and years to write.

    Now Joseph didn’t quoted View of the Hebrews until June 1, 1842 twelve years after the Book of Mormon was published. Obviously sometime between 1830 when the Book of Mormon was published and 1842 someone brought the book to his attention and he thought it was interesting enough to quote from. But, if he had used it as the bases for his own book he would not have called attention to it at all.
     
  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    There were many religious "outbreaks" after 1816---all over the country. These continued for several years. Religion was a hot topic and everybody was talking about it. The book, View of Hebrews, had a theme that was not unknown at all, quite talked about. JS had been interested in religion, his father and grandfather having had visions themselves and the family dealt with a lot of "folk magic", as called back then. With the family background if intense interest in religion, it is naive, at best, to think that JS had never heard of the View of Hebrews or of the theme.

    First published in 1823, with a second edition in 1825, Ethan Smith's hugely popular book View of the Hebrews reflects the prevailing notions of the origin of the American Indians of the time. Ethan Smith, a pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont, was by no means the first to advance the idea that the Indigenous Americans were descended from the Hebrews; such an idea was first advanced as early as 1815 and before, and had been the subject of much speculation in the intervening years. Ethan Smith's work intended to bring together the latest research on the subject, consisting largely of apocryphal stories gleaned from frontier missionaries.

    As popular as the book was in it's day, scientific inquiry and archaeology eventually combined to defeat the notion of a Semitic origin for the First Americans, and the View of the Hebrews would have been consigned to the wastebasket of history, were it not for one singular event.

    In 1830, a young New England farmer published a book which he claimed to have translated from some ancient plates under divine guidance. The Book of Mormon, as it was called, purported to tell the story of the First Americans by giving them a Hebrew ancestry. The book and the man, Joseph Smith, kindled a religion that today numbers over nine million members.

    It was not long, however, before a number of people realised that the View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon had some rather startling similarities. Not only was there a familial link between the two (Poultney was but a few miles from the birthplace of Joseph Smith, and one of Smith's right-hand-men, Oliver Cowdery, attended Ethan Smith's church), but the subject matter of the two works had a number of points of contact.

    It should be noted that these parallels by themseleves are not sufficient to establish that Joseph Smith knew and used the View of the Hebrews. Caution should be excercised before coming to such a conclusion. What these parallels do establish, however, is the fact that the idea of Indians-as-Hebrews was a very popular topic of discussion during Smith's era. Other writers, such as Josiah Priest and James Adair also published books in support of the theory, and the contemporary newspapers are filled with speculation on the subject. It should therefore come as no surprise that the young Smith also had his own ideas on the origin of the Indians.

    http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/voh/voh.shtml



    Main article: Early life of Joseph Smith
    Smith was born on December 23, 1805, in Vermont, and around 1816 or 1817, his family moved to a farm just outside the town of Palmyra, New York.[33] Like many other Americans living on the frontier at the beginning of the 19th century, Smith and his family believed in visions, dreams, and other mystical communications with God.[34] For example, in 1811, Smith's maternal grandfather, Solomon Mack, described a series of visions and voices from God that resulted in his conversion to Christianity at the age of seventy-six.[35]


    George Edward Anderson's photograph of the Smith Family Farm in Manchester, New York, c. 1907. (LDS Archives)
    Before Smith was born, his mother Lucy Mack Smith went to a grove near her home in Vermont and prayed about her husband Joseph Smith, Sr.'s repudiation of evangelical religion.[8] That night she said she had a dream which she interpreted as a prophecy that Joseph, Sr., would later accept the "pure and undefiled Gospel of the Son of God."[36] She also stated that Smith, Sr. had a number of dreams or visions between 1811 and 1819,[37] the first vision occurring when his mind was "much excited upon the subject of religion."[38] Joseph Sr.'s first vision confirmed to him the correctness of his refusal to join any organized religious group.[39]

    The Smith family was also exposed to the intense revivalism of this era. During the Second Great Awakening, numerous revivals occurred in many communities in the northeastern United States and were often reported in the Palmyra Register, a local paper read by the Smith family.[40] In the Palmyra area itself, large multi-denominational revivals occurred in 1816–17 and 1824–25.[41] In the intervening years, there were Methodist revivals, at least within twenty road miles of Palmyra; and more than sixty years later a newspaper editor in Lyons, New York, recalled "various religious awakenings in the neighborhood."[42]

    The Smith family also practiced a form of folk magic,[43] which, although not uncommon in this time and place, was criticized by many contemporary Protestants "as either fraudulent illusion or the workings of the Devil."[44] Both Joseph Smith, Sr. and at least two of his sons worked at "money digging," using seer stones in mostly unsuccessful attempts to locate lost items and buried treasure.[45] In a draft of her memoirs, Lucy Mack Smith referred to folk magic:

    Richard Bushman wrote that Smith "began to be concerned about religion in late 1817 or early 1818, when the aftereffects of the revival of 1816 and 1817 were still being felt."[56] Milton V. Backman wrote that religious outbreaks occurred in 1819–20 within a fifty-mile radius of Smith's home: "Church records, newspapers, religious journals, and other contemporary sources clearly reveal that great awakenings occurred in more than fifty western New York towns or villages during the revival of 1819–1820 .... Primary sources also specify that great multitudes joined the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Calvinist Baptist societies in the region of country where Joseph Smith lived."[57] Richard Lloyd Anderson has pointed out there was a Methodist Camp Meeting in Palmyra in 1818, with about 400 in attendance, that is verified by a contemporary journal. This agrees with the three-year time frame of his pondering on religion mentioned in Smith's 1832 account.[58] Backman cited evidence of a Methodist Camp Meeting in Palmayra in June 1820.[59]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision
     
  9. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    MMK; “… it is naive, at best, to think that JS had never heard of the View of Hebrews or of the theme….”

    Saying "it is naïve" is not history and it would never stand up in a court as evidence.

    It is 250 miles from Palmyra New York to Poultney Vermont, that would be a week or more of travel time. There is no indication that a copy of Ethan’s book made it from Poultney to Palmyra between July and Sept of 1823 when Joseph had his vision. There is no indication the book ever landed at his door nor would they have had the money to buy it if it had. Not one person who knew him at the time ever mentioned the book not even his enemies. When Philastus Hurlbut made his infamous collection of affidavits of Joseph’s neighbors not one person ever mentioned that book. The antis are so obsessed with trying to prove Joseph made up the Book of Mormon they have gone in to libraries hunting for list of books and maps which would have given Joseph the knowledge he needed to write it. No one has ever said ahhh see it was in that library. Ya know Joseph had no formal education, only what he learned at home. I don’t think he even had a library card.

    Mmk; The book and the man, Joseph Smith, kindled a religion that today numbers over nine million members.

    Where did you get 9 million from that’s old news there are now over 15 million members world wide. We actually have more non English speaking members than English speaking.

    MMK; Smith and his family believed in visions, dreams, and other mystical communications with God.[34] For example, in 1811, Smith's maternal grandfather, Solomon Mack, described a series of visions and voices from God that resulted in his conversion to Christianity at the age of seventy-six

    Joel 2
    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
    28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I gave the links to those articles---Those are not my numbers--didn't check the dates they were written. I'm just finding out about this, so am looking at articles---each of those articles say that there is no proof that JS knew about any of this.

    The idea of the Jewish blood in the American Indian was around since 1815. By the time Ethan had written the book, it was common knowledge and in all the papers. It had made the rounds to all the churches in America long before Ethan wrote his book. His book came at the sort of apex of this thought and was why his book was so popular at the time.
     
  11. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who is 'Emma"? Is that a person, angel or ?

    Interesting enough, quite a few people that are considered false prophets also had an angel they called 'Emma'.

    Two that come to mind are William Branham and Todd Bentley to name just two.


    I hope someone with an hour or two looks into this angel Emma and other people in religious positions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2016
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would wonder and am going to look into a little further "Original language of the Indian people was Hebrew".

    That to me seems so odd because the Hebrew language is very specific..

    If... If... this were true, than why were not the gold plates and this book written in Hebrew? Seems highly unlikely.
     
  13. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here you are finding fault and you have know idea what you are talking about. Emma was his wife.
     
  14. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I also mentioned two men from Christianity. I also said I did not know - needed more investigation, so I'll just dismiss your comment as not reading what I said in context.

    It was not fault finding. Or are you yourself finding fault that you are trying to put on my shoulders? Hmmm...
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe what we should do is start a Christian thread on this and vet it out outside of the LDS forum. Then we can not get our heads chopped off for every word we say. We can let the Christians look into it and they will probably find out more.

    I think I am going to start another thread somewhere else so this can get looked into without all the hangups of saying that we are 'critics' and 'trying to find fault'

    It's getting very, very old that we are condemned for every word. We do not deserve to be verbally abused for looking for more information. We do not deserve this.

    I'll come back and update with a link.
     
  16. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    In other words, you're wanting to have your own personal echo chamber on the matter.

    Need I remind you of the Mosser-Owen Report?

    Here it is if you need to read it again: http://www.cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html .
     
  17. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This entire conversation is negative. It is taxing for anyone to dialog because there is a constant chip on the shoulder of some participants

    Maybe think about how it is to dialogue and hear constant put downs.

    Not fun. Think about that when there are no new threads because you are insulting
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In other words.

    Sick of insults. Christians are much kinder and open to actual conversation.
     
  19. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Although I have not read A View of the Hebrews, I suspect it is a lot like the Spaulding Manuscript that everyone knew JS copied and used to write the BOM. I'm sure thousands of scholars have pored over this book and have come to the conclusion that A View of the Herbrews is so different that it could not be the foundation of the BOM. Thanks for the info. I think I will find a copy and read it, sounds interesting.
     
  20. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    We talked about this a while ago.

    But in short, the Hebrew is a very wordy and lengthy kind of written language. Therefore, the prophets that wrote the history on gold plates used an Egyptian style of writing that was less wordy and to the point. Over time, in order for this Egyptian writing to be even more applicable to writing on metal, the prophets modified the language into what is called Reformed Egyptian.

    Why Egyption? Wasn't Lehi and his family Israelites? Yes they were Israelites, but they did business, trading with the Egyptians, and so they were taught the Egyptian language. Here is the 2nd verse of the entire BOM,which says:
    2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

    The reason for writing in Egyptian is for the ease of writing, especially on metal.
     
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