Where is a "6000 year old earth" found in scripture?

[miamited]

There not bracketed as morning and evening. They are evening and morning.

When The Spirit was hovering over the waters it was darkness, God called forth the light and separated the darkness from the light and called the darkness night and the light day.
God used these words "night and day to set an order". Consider day 1, according to young earth believers, is that all God did in a 24 hour period is separate the darkness from the light? Consider the second day, is that all God did was separate the waters from the waters? and then end the 2end day?

Is that all God was able to do in a 24 hour period, did he just hang around for the remainder of the day before moving on to the next? Now of course we know God could have just spoke these things, as He did, which would happen instantly, so, say it took 1 sec for these things to happen each day, what did God do for the remaining 23.99 hours of the day? He didn't rest, that wasn't until the 7th day.


Really? Show me where? I don't see it.

Hi foghorn,

So, let me see if I understand your thesis correctly. Your claim is that because God 'may' have been able to do so, so much more in a day period that it just isn't possible that God is speaking of literal days.

Now, I agree that God can likely do much more in a day period than anything He has described to us, but that doesn't make Him beholden to me to do so. No one, not one single living human soul was alive during the creation week until the day that Adam was created. By the time of his creation it was all over. So, the only testimony that we have of 'how' and 'what' things happened during that period is God's testimony.

Of course, we have now the scientific method which is trying to work backwards and figure everything out, but that's all 'ifs' and 'maybes' based on the natural properties of things of which Paul warned believers not to be deceived by.

Scripture clearly warns us not to lean on our own understanding. That's exactly what you're doing. Denying the veracity of the Scriptures based on your own understanding of what God should or could be doing in a day period.

Me, I'm more of a mind to read God's word. Accept that it is the truth. Then not go beyond what is written in the Scriptures. I don't care that I might understand that God could have done more. I merely trust that God has told me the truth. I don't really have to, nor do I find it particularly faithful to God, to try and second guess or undermine or deny what He has told me is the truth. I also believe that the Scriptures were given to us by God through His Holy Spirit's guidance over the actions of men and that they were given to simple mankind with His understanding of how our brains work and how we communicate; that God wrote to us expecting us to understand what is revealed to us in those writings.

I just don't find it to be a defensible position that we can deny the plain and simple truth of what God has revealed to us concerning how and when He created all things merely because we think to imagine that such a claim would leave God sitting around being lazy most of the day. That's merely a supposition based on not the slightest little shred of factual data, but just, well... that's what I think.

We honestly don't know how 'long' it took God to actually create the earth, although I'm of a mind that it was near instantly created, but I don't know that from any evidence that God has given us. All I can say about the length of time it took to create the earth is that it was less than a day.

God is more powerful and able to do things that we cannot even begin to think to imagine. Don't sell Him short.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Foghorn]

Hi foghorn,

So, let me see if I understand your thesis correctly. Your claim is that because God 'may' have been able to do so, so much more in a day period that it just isn't possible that God is speaking of literal days.

No, that's not my claim at all. God can do whatever He decides to do in a day, whether it be a 24 hour period or a thousand years. I am just trying to see how, by replies, that it has to be a liter 24 hour day.

Now, I agree that God can likely do much more in a day period than anything He has described to us, but that doesn't make Him beholden to me to do so. No one, not one single living human soul was alive during the creation week until the day that Adam was created. By the time of his creation it was all over. So, the only testimony that we have of 'how' and 'what' things happened during that period is God's testimony.

Sure.
But, I think you may agree Genesis is not so concerned with time.
We can read about God's creation in Genesis, and we can see His creation with our eyes. Since science can see the earth is older then 6000 years and Genesis does not give an accurate time frame to each day, then why is it so important to have to believe in 6 literal 24 hour time periods?

Of course, we have now the scientific method which is trying to work backwards and figure everything out, but that's all 'ifs' and 'maybes' based on the natural properties of things of which Paul warned believers not to be deceived by.

You think science is deceptive? Read Romans 1. Secular science is deceptive, because they are deceived and under an illusion and this is where the "ifs" and maybes" are.

Scripture clearly warns us not to lean on our own understanding.That's exactly what you're doing. Denying the veracity of the Scriptures based on your own understanding of what God should or could be doing in a day period.

No, I'm not. Read above again.

Me, I'm more of a mind to read God's word. Accept that it is the truth.

Amen, God's word is truth.

Then not go beyond what is written in the Scriptures. I don't care that I might understand that God could have done more. I merely trust that God has told me the truth. I don't really have to, nor do I find it particularly faithful to God, to try and second guess or undermine or deny what He has told me is the truth. I also believe that the Scriptures were given to us by God through His Holy Spirit's guidance over the actions of men and that they were given to simple mankind with His understanding of how our brains work and how we communicate; that God wrote to us expecting us to understand what is revealed to us in those writings.

I'm glad.

I just don't find it to be a defensible position that we can deny the plain and simple truth of what God has revealed to us concerning how and when He created all things merely because we think to imagine that such a claim would leave God sitting around being lazy most of the day. That's merely a supposition based on not the slightest little shred of factual data, but just, well... that's what I think.

I am just curious about what young earth believer though about these things. That's all. Just some thoughts.

We honestly don't know how 'long' it took God to actually create the earth,

I agree.

although I'm of a mind that it was near instantly created, but I don't know that from any evidence that God has given us. All I can say about the length of time it took to create the earth is that it was less than a day.

Ok, I have no issue with that.

God is more powerful and able to do things that we cannot even begin to think to imagine. Don't sell Him short.

I wont.

 

[miamited]

Hi foghorn,

You wrote:

But, I think you may agree Genesis is not so concerned with time.

No, I'm not so much in agreement with that statement. Genesis mentions days and years throughout. It tells us how old Abraham was when his children were born. How old Noah was when the flood came and how old each father was when having a particular child. It speaks of how long Abraham's descendants would be in captivity. How anyone can read the entire book and not see that it speaks quite a lot about 'time' is quite beyond me.

A day is a measure of time. If I tell a friend that I will visit him in 5 days, my friend understands that I am announcing to him a time frame for when I will be visiting. If I then tell him I expect to stay for 3 days, then my friend understands how long, in time, I expect to visit him. Days and years are measures of time. Yes, we expect certain things to happen within the span of time that a day or year might include, but the actual giving of days and years has always been a measure of time.

When God says that Adam was so many years old when he had his son or when he died, then we know that these events took the time that it takes the earth to make so many orbits around the sun. We have a definite understanding of how long a year is in time. If I say that I'm going to pay my car off in a year, then my expectation is that before we reach, in time, the same point, in time, the next year from when I make that statement, to have my car paid off.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can read the book of Genesis and make any believable claim that it doesn't really have much to do with time. It's all about time.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Foghorn]

Hi foghorn,

You wrote:


No, I'm not so much in agreement with that statement. Genesis mentions days and years throughout. It tells us how old Abraham was when his children were born. How old Noah was when the flood came and how old each father was when having a particular child. It speaks of how long Abraham's descendants would be in captivity. How anyone can read the entire book and not see that it speaks quite a lot about 'time' is quite beyond me.

A day is a measure of time. If I tell a friend that I will visit him in 5 days, my friend understands that I am announcing to him a time frame for when I will be visiting. If I then tell him I expect to stay for 3 days, then my friend understands how long, in time, I expect to visit him. Days and years are measures of time. Yes, we expect certain things to happen within the span of time that a day or year might include, but the actual giving of days and years has always been a measure of time.

When God says that Adam was so many years old when he had his son or when he died, then we know that these events took the time that it takes the earth to make so many orbits around the sun. We have a definite understanding of how long a year is in time. If I say that I'm going to pay my car off in a year, then my expectation is that before we reach, in time, the same point, in time, the next year from when I make that statement, to have my car paid off.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can read the book of Genesis and make any believable claim that it doesn't really have much to do with time. It's all about time.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Thanks for sharing.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There not bracketed as morning and evening. They are evening and morning.

When The Spirit was hovering over the waters it was darkness, God called forth the light and separated the darkness from the light and called the darkness night and the light day.
God used these words "night and day to set an order". Consider day 1, according to young earth believers, is that all God did in a 24 hour period is separate the darkness from the light? Consider the second day, is that all God did was separate the waters from the waters? and then end the 2end day?

Is that all God was able to do in a 24 hour period, did he just hang around for the remainder of the day before moving on to the next? Now of course we know God could have just spoke these things, as He did, which would happen instantly, so, say it took 1 sec for these things to happen each day, what did God do for the remaining 23.99 hours of the day? He didn't rest, that wasn't until the 7th day.


Really? Show me where? I don't see it.

None is so blind as those who "will not" see.
Paul calls it "willful ignorance".
And FYI, day two was when the Creator divided the waters of creation in two, and stretched out the Powers of His Firmament and named them "Sha Mayim"
He built stories in the heavens that are stretched out, on day 2, and Scripture tells us there are at least three heavens/stories, and Paradise, where Mount Eden of earth's stretched out heavens is located, is in the third heaven.
Blindness is given to Adamkind since at least the tower of Babel affair, and no longer can any Adam person even find the gate of entry into Paradise in the third heavens, from earth below.

Also, FYI: earth was not even named "Earth" until day three, when the waters below the heavens were commanded to be gathered together into one place [then named "Seas"], and the "dry" to appear, which was then named "Earth".

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Actually, in the Word of God the earth is fixed in place; is a globe; does not rotate, tilt, spin, revolve. The heavens circle the earth from the beginning, and when God said "Let there be light", and divivded the light from the darkness, and the evening and the morning made "ONE Day", a complete rotation of the heavens around the globe named "Earth" in creation week. That evening and morning measure one complete circle of the heavens around the earth.
Then, on day four of creation week, God made the sun and moon and put them in the circling heavens in their own peculiar paths, to govern the Light by day and by night.
The Sun is not the created Light, but gets the light of creation poured into it to refract back out, and nothing in the entire heavens is hidden from its heat, says the Word.

 

[Riberra]

Also, FYI: earth was not even named "Earth" until day three,

Genesis 1(KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The heaven was created before the earth right there in Genesis 1:1

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Genesis 1(KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The heaven was created before the earth right there in Genesis 1:1

No, you are not reading what it says. It tells us He created the heavens and the earth in the beginning, and then He tells us the order of the Beginnings. Genesis means the beginnings.
The order of the beginnings is listed and we see there was no name for the heavens or the earth until day 2, for the heavens, and day 3, for the earth.
The firmament of His powers were not stretched out until day 2, between the divided in two waters of the globe, and only then, on day two, was the firmament of His powers named "Heavens/two waters/Shamayim", after they were stretched out in stories, between the cut in two waters of the globe.

 

[Riberra]

No, you are not reading what it says. It tells us He created the heavens and the earth in the beginning, and then He tells us the order of the Beginnings. Genesis means the beginnings.

The order of the Beginnings?First time i hear about that.

The order of the beginnings is listed and we see there was no name for the heavens or the earth until day 2, for the heavens, and day 3, for the earth.

I always though that the beginning begin in Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The firmament of His powers were not stretched out until day 2, between the divided in two waters of the globe, and only then, on day two, was the firmament of His powers named "Heavens/two waters/Shamayim", after they were stretched out IN STORIES, between the cut in two waters of the globe.

Do you really believe that the heaven where the Earth ,the Sun and the stars that we see in the firmament is made of WATER ?


From another post (# 446) you seem to believe that the Earth is the center of the Universe with everything revolving around the Earth is that right ?

Actually, in the Word of God the earth is fixed in place; is a globe; does not rotate, tilt, spin, revolve. The heavens circle the earth from the beginning

Are you serious ?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The order of the beginnings?First time i hear about that.
...

Do you really believe that the heaven where the Earth ,the Sun and the stars that we see is made of WATER ?

In the book of Beginnings, "Genesis", God laid it out in the order He did it. The heavens and the earth were not formed when He created them out of nothing, and there was power, and water, by which and out of which He brought all things into their forms in six days.

Yes, the earth is the Biblical center of the creation and the heavens circle the earth once each day, and had their own beginning right here, when the earth was only a globe of vast proportions of water.
The heavens were not named until they were the stretched out firmament of His powers, on day 2 of creation week.
The name of the heavens is descriptive of how they came to be, as stretched out between the divided in two waters.
The half of the waters of this globe are above the stretched out heavens, so the Word of God states.

 

[Riberra]

The name of the heavens is descriptive of how they came to be, as stretched out between the divided in two waters.
The half of the waters of this globe are above the stretched out heavens, so the Word of God states.

I think i begin to see what you are talking about: is the image below fit the Bible description about the stretching of the heavens ?

Diagram of three heavens

Source:
http://www.kjvbible.org/firmament.html

 

[greenguzzi]

Actually, in the Word of God the earth is fixed in place; is a globe; does not rotate, tilt, spin, revolve. The heavens circle the earth from the beginning, and when God said "Let there be light", and divivded the light from the darkness, and the evening and the morning made "ONE Day", a complete rotation of the heavens around the globe named "Earth" in creation week. That evening and morning measure one complete circle of the heavens around the earth.

But that breaks the Lorentz covariance. You can't just make stuff up that isn't consistent with what we observe! Next you'll be saying that blue is red.
I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it until you start making sense; your interpretation of scripture is at odds with our observation of reality, therefore your interpretation is wrong. Scripture remains correct, but your interpretation is demonstrably wrong.

The creation story in Genesis is mythological and polemic. If one reads it as such, then it is a wonderful revelation of the nature and mind of our God; and of the struggle of His people. But when you try to force scripture into the modern-scientific mindset, you just make a mockery of God's word, and make yourself look like a fool.

 

[miamited]

Hi greenguzzi,

Well, just so we each understand each other and the authority and truth of the Scriptures...

You wrote:

I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it until you start making sense; your interpretation of scripture is at odds with our observation of reality, therefore your interpretation is wrong.

This is, of course, the battle cry of old earth creationism and evolutionary theorists. If what we see in the reality of the physical realm doesn't match with what God's word seems to be telling us, then our understanding of God's word is flawed. However, in speaking specifically of the creation, Paul warned the believers in Colossi not to be deceived by knowledge that is founded on the natural properties of things.

My best example of this, apart from the creation account, is the crossing of the sea by the Hebrews coming out of Egypt. We are told in the Scriptures that as the Hebrews passed over the dry seabed that there was a wall of water on both their right hand and on their left hand. However, our tried and true and well tested observation of reality is that water will not stand up like a wall without some aid such as a glass container or fish tank or cliff face. Our observation of reality tells us that water will always seek to level itself unless something holds it from that natural property. It's an understanding that has been tested and proven hundreds of thousands if not several million times.

So, what's your understanding of the crossing of the Hebrews over the dry seabed with a wall of water on both their left hand and their right hand?

And, of course, that's only one example where we see that when God works all our knowledge of what can and can't be done based on the natural properties of things is worthless. How do you understand the sun standing still in the sky over Israel for nearly a full day or the shadow of the sun going backwards? How do you understand that an ass (the animal kind) can speak? What is your understanding of these events that seem quite clearly laid out for us in the Scriptures. If the sun going backwards or standing still is in conflict with our observations of reality, are all those who believe that God did actually cause such things to happen, not properly interpreting the Scriptures?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi greenguzzi,

Here's another great example:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness spreads over Egypt—darkness that can be felt.” So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days. No one could see anyone else or move about for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.

Now, just a bit of a geography lesson before we begin. The Israelites lived in an area called Goshen. This was the area given to Israel and his family to live when they first came to Egypt. The area of Goshen would be much like we think of a suburb of a major city today. It lay just east of the Nile river. The Nile river is mentioned in the Scriptures as being a part of the major city of Egypt in which Pharaoh lived. So, understand that Goshen was not far from the city proper. The Israelite slaves reported every day to work to make bricks so it could certainly be assumed that it was within fairly short walking distance.

So, in this particular miracle of God's work in proving Himself to His people, He made it so dark that in the area that the Egyptians lived there was a darkness that was so thick that people couldn't even see one another and didn't leave their homes for three days. Yet, in Goshen there seems to have been fairly normal daylight during those same three days.

Now anyone would tell you that it's impossible for the sun to be shining and its light to be visible during three days in Harvey IL and be pitch black in Chicago, IL. Yet, this seems to be exactly what God's word claims that God did.

How would you explain such a thing or how do you understand this event to have actually happened?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[greenguzzi]

Hi greenguzzi,

Well, just so we each understand each other and the authority and truth of the Scriptures...

You wrote:


This is, of course, the battle cry of old earth creationism and evolutionary theorists. If what we see in the reality of the physical realm doesn't match with what God's word seems to be telling us, then our understanding of God's word is flawed. However, in speaking specifically of the creation, Paul warned the believers in Colossi not to be deceived by knowledge that is founded on the natural properties of things.

Thank you for a sensible and thought-provoking rebuttal. You raise a couple of good points that deserve to be addressed.

Firstly, Paul was not admonishing the Colossians for attempting to understand the natural world, but for Gnosticism. God does not lie. God does not ask us to deny our own observations, quite the opposite in fact. Science and Gnosticism might seem to be the same on a superficial level because they are both concerned with knowledge. But they are in fact opposites because Gnosticism is secret, untestable, and almost certainly wrong. Whereas science is open, testable, and the best we can know at any given time. So Paul's warning to the Colossians is irrelevant here because he's not talking about science and observations, but about a secret and false "knowledge".

Secondly, there is a huge difference between the miracles you cite and the miracle of creation. That difference is evidence. God doesn't often part seas, or retrograde the sun, or black out towns. So there is no evidence as to how He did it. Scripture says it happened, and that's good enough for me. But there is nothing to observe or examine to attempt to understand what actually happened. Did God suspend the laws of nature? Did He use the laws of nature in an unknown or unexpected way? I can offer hypotheses, but there is no evidence to test, so we can never know. It is a mystery. However the miracle of creation is completely different. We are surrounded by evidence. We can examine the rocks, we can measure the radiation, we can test our hypotheses; we can even look into the distant past. Creation is a miracle that we can observe, which makes it unique and wonderful (Romans 1:18-21). We can use our observations of the natural world to understand what scripture is saying when it talks about creation. A 6000 year old Earth is at complete odds with what we see around us. So either God is deceiving us, or we have misinterpreted scripture. I know which one I believe. Parting seas etc. is not at odds with our observations; I can think of at least three ways He could have done it, but because I have nothing to test I have no choice but to acknowledge that it's a complete mystery. Creation however is not a complete mystery, because we can examine it.

 

[miamited]

Hi greenguzzi,

You responded:

Firstly, Paul was not admonishing the Colossians for attempting to understand the natural world, but for Gnosticism.

And you base that on...

He didn't warn them of understanding the world, but of being deceived by claims based on the natural properties of things. Some translations even translate it as, 'the way the world thinks and acts'. Gnosticism, as defined by about religion claims that salvation is gained by some mystical knowledge. Gnostics, as regards the material world, believed that all matter was evil and only the spirit was good. Certainly not something that one might learn by studying the natural properties of things.

I understand that you believe that you understand what Paul is talking about, but I'm not in agreement that your understanding is correct.

Then you responded:

God does not ask us to deny our own observations, quite the opposite in fact.

It is correct that nowhere in the Scriptures does God ask us to deny our own observations, unless, of course we have observed that no one comes back from the dead and therefore understand that neither must Jesus have done so. Or, that water won't stand on its own so the account of the crossing of the sea must not have actually happened the way we're told in the Scriptures. Or, perhaps, we've observed that the sun does not stand still and even understand that if it did the whole earth would fall into some cataclysmic event. No, you're probably right. God doesn't ask us to deny our own observations of things. However, neither can I find anywhere where he encourages such. There is the little passage that says we are not to lean on our own understanding. I imagine He finds it entertaining that so many of His children deny so many, many miracles that He is claimed to have done in the Scriptures because we aren't about to deny our own observations of how things work and that pretty much denies every single miracle in the bible.

If I may ask you, what have you observed about the making of wine? How is it done and how long does it take based on your observations?

Then you responded:

Secondly, there is a huge difference between the miracles you cite and the miracle of creation. That difference is evidence.

However the miracle of creation is completely different. We are surrounded by evidence. We can examine the rocks, we can measure the radiation, we can test our hypotheses; we can even look into the distant past. Creation is a miracle that we can observe, which makes it unique and wonderful (Romans 1:18-21). We can use our observations of the natural world to understand what scripture is saying when it talks about creation. A 6000 year old Earth is at complete odds with what we see around us. So either God is deceiving us, or we have misinterpreted scripture.

Tell me, what was the radiation reading of the first rocks on the earth. All you can really do is extrapolate from current knowledge. A man rising up alive from the dead is also at complete odds with what we see around us. Guess I've been deceived or misinterpreted Scripture.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[greenguzzi]

Hi greenguzzi,
[... ...]
And you base that on...

I base it on a number of commentaries that I value. There is a possibility that Paul is talking about some other religious philosophy that doesn't put Christ in His proper place. But he certainly isn't talking about science.

I understand that you believe that you understand what Paul is talking about, but I'm not in agreement that your understanding is correct.

Likewise, so we'll just have to agree to differ. However I will discuss this scripture with an excellent theologian I know, best to be sure about things like this.

It is correct that nowhere in the Scriptures does God ask us to deny our own observations, unless, of course we have observed that no one comes back from the dead and therefore understand that neither must Jesus have done so.

I have already pointed out the vast difference between miracles and creation. You cannot draw a conclusion about creation by reasoning about miracles.

Just because I have never witnessed a resurrection, nor know any mechanism for one to occur, doesn't mean that I'm going to deny that Christ rose from the dead. However if my interpretation of 1 Kings 7:23 means that Pi is equal to 3.0 when my observation shows that it's 3.14159 then I must review my interpretation, because the alternative is just bonkers. The same goes for the Genesis creation narrative.

Another important distinction between miracles and creation is consequences. The consequence to the material world of a resurrection or of turning water into wine is insignificant. But the consequences of a 6000 year old Earth are phenomenal. So many things break if we insist on this. For example if radioactive dating is wrong, then nuclear physics is wrong, then the mechanism for the sun to shine is wrong. Many things that we observe every single day just would not be the way they are if the Earth was created only 6000 years ago. It just doesn't make any sense. If you go down this path you have to throw all of science out the window, and then you end up believing stuff like the electric universe nonsense. Which ironically is much closer to the vacuous philosophy that Paul was warning about.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Is talking about trusting the Lord. We are not to rely on our own understanding of what God is doing. It's not a command to abandon reason or ignore our own senses.

 

[miamited]

Hi greenguzzi,

You responded:

I base it on a number of commentaries that I value. There is a possibility that Paul is talking about some other religious philosophy that doesn't put Christ in His proper place. But he certainly isn't talking about science.

Oh, I absolutely agree that he isn't talking about science.

Then you responded:

I have already pointed out the vast difference between miracles and creation. You cannot draw a conclusion about creation by reasoning about miracles.

So, you don't consider God's creating this realm in which we live as a miracle?

Then you responded:

But the consequences of a 6000 year old Earth are phenomenal. So many things break if we insist on this. For example if radioactive dating is wrong, then nuclear physics is wrong, then the mechanism for the sun to shine is wrong. Many things that we observe every single day just would not be the way they are if the Earth was created only 6000 years ago.

Let me ask you a question. You see a man that is full grown and looks to be 20-30 years of age and you measure and weigh all of his physical attributes by all the known scientific and medical knowledge that we have today and they confirm that all indications are that the man is, just as you presumed, 20-30 years of age and healthy. Would you consider your findings to be correct?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[greenguzzi]

So, you don't consider God's creating this realm in which we live as a miracle?

I've already answered that in my first reply to you:

Secondly, there is a huge difference between the miracles you cite and the miracle of creation.

If you are going to reduce this to a game of semantics, then I'm not interested in playing. Judging by your first reply to me, you seem smart enough to know what I mean.

Let me ask you a question. You see a man that is full grown and looks to be 20-30 years of age and you measure and weigh all of his physical attributes by all the known scientific and medical knowledge that we have today and they confirm that all indications are that the man is, just as you presumed, 20-30 years of age and healthy. Would you consider your findings to be correct?

Of course, and I know where you are going, and I've already shown my hand on this. But let's see where this leads anyway.

 

[miamited]

Morning greenguzzi,

You replied:

I've already answered that in my first reply to you:

I must have missed it. I looked back over the posts and didn't see anywhere that you mentioned whether or not the creation was a miracle. I only found where you had said that the creation event was different because you believe that we have evidence to support your understanding. I'm merely asking if you believe that God's creating this realm in which we live to be a miracle or not?

Just for the record, here's my understanding. God created this realm. He also created the angelic realm which presently surrounds Him with angels who live with Him face to face. We don't know a whole lot about this other realm other than John's description in the Revelation of the sea of glass and brilliant colors. We also know that in this realm the angels have the ability to come before God and speak to Him face to face as described in the book of Job. We know that at some point there was a falling out between God and one particular angel who was created as one of the most beautiful of the angels and that there are a number of other angels who have sided with this rebellious angel. These rebellious angels are referred to as demons who apparently have the ability to live with us and refer to their number as 'legion'. The angelic realm is intertwined with our realm as we see God sending angels to deliver messages to us, but somehow exists pretty much unseen by us. Even as Jesus drove out many demonic angels while he was with us, humankind didn't seem to be able to actually see them. When the ass's way was blocked by an angel the man couldn't see him until his eyes were opened to see him.

It would seem that God created the angelic realm earlier than our realm, although many believe that both realms were created at the time of the Genesis account of creation, I'm of a mind that the angelic realm already existed and the Genesis account is merely an account of God's working and creating our specific realm. But, for me, the Genesis account of creation tells us that God created this realm miraculously, as are all of His works to us, and out of nothing. He merely commanded, and the earth appeared. All alone in the black inkiness of space. He then worked with the earth to form it from its void state of just a ball of solid matter covered in water to have dry land and plants and animals. Then He once again commanded and all of the other celestial bodies of the universe came to exist. He is an awesome and most powerful God. After He created all that was needed for man to exist, He created man.

God's word tells us, in at least three places, that He did all this within the span of six days. That He merely spoke the words or thought the thoughts and great and majestic heavenly bodies filled the physical realm in which we live. He then accounted for us through the genealogies of mankind by years, how long all of this realm has existed. By following through these genealogies we find that the creation has existed for about 6,000 years and the Hebrew calendar supports that. The Hebrew calendar counts this year as 5,744 and God's truth has, since the days of Abraham, come to us through the Jewish people. Even Paul allows that the greatest value of being a Jew is that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

There is coming a time when God will close out this realm as we now know it. God will judge both men and angels and a city called Jerusalem will come down out of heaven after God's day of judgment and His righteous ones will live eternally with Him in that great city. He will live among us and we will be His people and He will be our God.

That's a brief synopsis of the beginning and end of this realm as we know it, but is fully supported by the Scriptures. The creation, the physical realm in which we live, was created by miraculous command of God and, therefore, should be measured on the same scale as we measure any other of God's miracles.

What man has done is to take the created and developed ways in which we think to believe we can measure the time of its existence through the natural properties of things. It has been the work of man, since the days of Adam and Eve, to not believe God. To lean on our own understanding as paramount and supreme over God's truth. Many, many, many of mankind follows this path and it is quite broad. But, as Jesus has warned us, narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it. I am firmly convicted and convinced that the few will be those who have loved God and believed God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted