The snare of devotion to Mary.

[prodromos]

One source:

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3013

Fr Mangan is not a Church Father, nor does he quote any Scripture or Church Father to support his view.

 

[Arsenios]

One source:

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3013

Well, that certainly does show that Monsignor Charles M. Mangan of Catholic Online believes it...
But you see, Catholics, like the Orthodox, can believe a lot of things, and citing one person who is a Communicant within that Communion and concluding that the Church teaches what someone within it teaches is not always efficacious... We, for instance, will receive a Conciliar statement, but not necessarily another person's interpretation of it, and you, in order to receive a teaching, must have a Papal Stamp upon it of some kind, I should think, and then you would be the ones to interpret it...

Since the teaching is offered on a somewhat official website and is written by a "Monsignor", I do have to assume that it is a common enough teaching in the Latin Confession to warrant common acceptance, and so I thank you for providing it. I must say, that it is somewhat dismaying, and I have to say that I do not think you can find any such teaching in the undivided Latin and Orthodox Communions of the first thousand years of this Faith...

It is one thing to extol Her in prayers, and it is another to theologize those prayers into Church Doctrines...

So thank-you for the link - I was hoping that this marriage to the Holy Spirit was idiosyncratic here, and not a greatly larger teaching of the Church...

Not all my hopes to heaven go...

And God-willing, a Way will open that will resolve the matter...

This much I can say - I have found NO SUCH TEACHING in the entire 2000 year history of the Holy Orthodox Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ anywhere... Nor in any other of the Apostolic Churches... The Latin Papal Church is the ONLY Church that teaches such a thing...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

What better way to love Jesus than to love his Blessed Mother? She is above all creatures in Heaven and on Earth. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are directly above her.

She mediates for us to her Son. She intercedes for us her children.

I am reading a great book at present called "True Devotion to Mary" By Louis - Marie De Montfort

In there is a fabulous explanation for those that dont understand Our deep love of Mary etc.

Nobody 'worships' Mary. I dont know of anyone that does!

She is the Queen of Heaven!

True Devotion to Mary--the book you are reading--is considered by some to be the best book on the Blessed Virgin ever written. It is a constant companion for me. I practice St. Louis DeMontfort's spirituality, having made the 33 day conscecration to Jesus through Mary according to his teachings. It has changed my life. It's one of the best secrets in the Church, and is strongly recommended by the Papacy.

 

[patricius79]

Can you provide a link to the Papal source for this claim?

Thank-you...

Arsenios

I'm not the best one to ask, but I know the idea of Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit is a belief of the Catholic Church, expressed by canonized saints and doctors of the Church like St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Alphonsus Liguori.

If you want to ask JustinAngel when he comes back, I'm sure he could provide many papal texts testifying to the spiritual marriage between Mary and the Holy Spirit, which is very clear in Scripture as well. "The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the most high will overshadow you". In the Hebrew language, that is marital language regarding sexual relations. Of course, this is to be understood spiritually, however, not carnally.

[Edit: here's an explicit source from the Pope of the Catholic Church, John Paul II:

n a sense her journey of faith is longer. The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation, welcoming the Word of the true God, offering "the full submission of intellect and will...
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p.../hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

Here is one papal source, from Paul VI, the Vicar of Christ:

Reflecting on the Gospel texts—"The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will cover you with his shadow" (Lk. 1:35) and "[Mary] was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.... She has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit" (Mt. 1:18, 20)—they saw in the Spirit's intervention an action that consecrated and made fruitful Mary's virginity[75].... Examining more deeply still the mystery of the Incarnation, they saw in the mysterious relationship between the Spirit and Mary an aspect redolent of marriage, poetically portrayed by Prudentius: "The unwed Virgin espoused the Spirit,"[79] and they called her the "Temple of the Holy Spirit,"[80] an expression that emphasizes the sacred character of the Virgin, now the permanent dwelling of the Spirit of God. https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6MARIAL.HTM


As his mystical spouse, Mary implores his coming upon the Church born from the pierced side of Christ on the cross, and now about to be revealed to the world. (p.44). ...
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/h-spirit

 

[Panevino]

Yes, that is a very silly notion...

One Orthodox theologoumenon is the understanding that
just as God formed Eve from the rib of Adam,
so also did God the Holy Spirit form Christ in the womb of the Blessed Virgin...

Arsenios

PS - A theologoumenon is a pious Orthodox theological opinion
that has not been dogmatized in the Church...

A.

I've heard it said that the action of the Holy Spirit in overshadowing her has nuptial connotations like the following examples.

Ruth/ boaz
Ruth 3:9 -10
And he said to her: Who art thou? And she answered: I am Ruth thy handmaid: spread thy coverlet over thy servant, for thou art a near kinsman. And he said, Blessed be thou of the Lord, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich.
....Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Ezekiel 16:7-8
I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

 

[Arsenios]

[Edit: here's an explicit source from the Pope of the Catholic Church, John Paul II:

In a sense her journey of faith is longer.
The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her,
and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation,
welcoming the Word of the true God,
offering "the full submission of intellect and will...
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p.../hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/h-spirit

So I guess my next question is: Does this teaching carry the full dogmatic authority of the Pope,
Thereby being an infallible Papal teaching Ex-Cathedra?
Or is it just JP II expressing a personal opinion?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I've heard it said that the action of the Holy Spirit in overshadowing her has nuptial connotations like the following examples.

Ruth/ boaz
Ruth 3:9 -10
And he said to her: Who art thou? And she answered: I am Ruth thy handmaid: spread thy coverlet over thy servant, for thou art a near kinsman. And he said, Blessed be thou of the Lord, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich.
....Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Ezekiel 16:7-8
I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

The overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, while it may or may not have the meaning of "knowing" in the Biblical sense of marital conjugation, is NOT a substitute term for marriage when understood spiritually... Just as the Marriage of the Lamb is NOT a carnal marriage, and we do NOT refer to the Saints as being MARRIED to Christ... The relationship is WAY more intimate than the marriage bed and its household...

Arsenios

 

[prodromos]

I've heard it said that the action of the Holy Spirit in overshadowing her has nuptial connotations like the following examples.

Ruth/ boaz
Ruth 3:9 -10
And he said to her: Who art thou? And she answered: I am Ruth thy handmaid: spread thy coverlet over thy servant, for thou art a near kinsman. And he said, Blessed be thou of the Lord, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich.
....Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Ezekiel 16:7-8
I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

So which Church Fathers use these verses as support for calling Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

 

[patricius79]

I've heard it said that the action of the Holy Spirit in overshadowing her has nuptial connotations like the following examples.

Ruth/ boaz
Ruth 3:9 -10
And he said to her: Who art thou? And she answered: I am Ruth thy handmaid: spread thy coverlet over thy servant, for thou art a near kinsman. And he said, Blessed be thou of the Lord, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich.
....Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Ezekiel 16:7-8
I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

Great examples of the spousal language which is also used to describe the Holy Spirit's relationship with Mary. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Arsenios]

Great examples of the spousal language which is also used to describe the Holy Spirit's relationship with Mary. Thanks for posting this.

"So which Church Fathers use these verses as support for calling Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?"

Anyone at all in the first thousand years of the Christian Faith?

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

"So which Church Fathers use these verses as support for calling Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?"

Anyone at all in the first thousand years of the Christian Faith?

Arsenios

I don't know. I know that St. Louis DeMontfort and St. Maximilian Kolbe and Pope John Paul II and others see Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and that Scripture uses spousal language to describe Mary's relationship with the Holy Spirit and her conception of Jesus Christ in her womb by the Holy Spirit.

This site appears to deal with the subject, citing St. Augustine in the West and St. Germanus, Bishop of Constantinople in the East:

http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/bride2.html

 

[Panevino]

So which Church Fathers use these verses as support for calling Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

I've been busy and wanted to respond earlier but here's what I found. Not exactly what you asked for but .. I'll dig around for that to
It was hard to get the Prudentius quote with context

St. John of damacene (Damascus) 600's)
Sermon 2 on the assumption/dormition
"..It was fitting that the body of her, who preserved her virginity unsullied in her [192] motherhood, should be kept from corruption even after death. She who nursed her Creator as an infant at her breast, had a right to be in the divine tabernacles. The place of the bride whom the Father had espoused, was in the heavenly courts..." http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-komesis.asp

Ephraim of Syria (300's)
Hymns on the nativity, Hymn 6 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3703.htm

"...Bridegrooms with their brides rejoiced. Blessed Be the Babe, whose Mother was Bride of the HolyOne! Blessed the marriage feast, whereat You were present, in which when wine was suddenly wanting, in You it abounded again!..."

Aurelius Clemes Prudentius (300's) he was apparently influenced by writings of st Ambrose who was taught by the older simplicianus
https://archive.org/stream/prudentiuswithen01pruduoft/prudentiuswithen01pruduoft_djvu.txt

Liber Apotheosis - divinity of Christ
"...We believe that He springs from no earthly
seed, takes no unclean beginning from sin-stained
man. It is the subtle fire that begets Him, not a
father's flesh nor blood nor foul passion. The di\dne
power weds a maid inviolate, breathing its pure breath
over her untainted flesh. The strange mystery of his
birth bids us beUeve that the Christ thus conceived
is God. The unwedded maid is wedded to the Spirit
and feels no taint of passion. The seal of her virgin-
ity remains unbroken ; pregnant within, she is un-
touched without, blossoming from a pure fertility, a
mother now, but still a maiden, a mother that has
not known husband..."

 

[Panevino]

The overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, while it may or may not have the meaning of "knowing" in the Biblical sense of marital conjugation, is NOT a substitute term for marriage when understood spiritually... Just as the Marriage of the Lamb is NOT a carnal marriage, and we do NOT refer to the Saints as being MARRIED to Christ... The relationship is WAY more intimate than the marriage bed and its household...

Arsenios

The idea of the cloak/skirt (ezek16:7-8, ruth3:9-10/4:13) covering as a euphemism for a spousal relationship seems to me confirmed in the following verse.

Deuteronomy 22:30(douay-Rheims)
No man shall take his father's wife, nor remove his covering.

Deuteronomy 22:30(Asv)
A man shall not take his father's wife, and shall not uncover his father's skirt.

And also
Deuteronomy 27:20
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

 

[Radrook]

For a time I was confused when Catholics named virgins after the geographic locations where they were claimed to have appeared. I thought that they were referring to different virgins. Then I found out that they all were referring to Mary.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For a time I was confused when Catholics named virgins after the geographic locations where they were claimed to have appeared. I thought that they were referring to different virgins. Then I found out that they all were referring to Mary.

It becomes even more confusing when it turns out that several of these "virgins" are identified with places of pagan worship of various goddesses, as for example the Virgin of Guadalupe. The net result in many of the native minds is an association between their beloved goddess and this new femaie virgin who, for all intents and purposes, shares many, if not most, of the same attributes as their goddess.

Another interesting development is currently happening in Vietnam where the Catholic Church is dealing with a major division which has determined that the primary deity in Christianity is Mary and that she is the Mother Goddess (the Mother of God, in every sense of the word).

 

[patricius79]

It becomes even more confusing when it turns out that several of these "virgins" are identified with places of pagan worship of various goddesses, as for example the Virgin of Guadalupe.

As I understand it, the place where the Mother of God appeared on Tepeyac hill had been associated--at some point anyway--with the goddess "Tonantzin", who was associated with fertility and the earth. Mary is the New Earth who conceived God the Savior in her womb. My understanding is that God does affirm what is good in native cultures, while at the same time--through Mary and Christ--saving the people from what is bad. This reminds me of St. Paul using the statue of an "unknown God" to proclaim that Christ is that unknown God. I know that Mary clearly identified herself not as Tonantzin, but as the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God who created all that is. Thus she is clearly affirming Monotheism.

I love our Lady of Guadalupe and find Christ through her and venerate her icon. What she said has been reflected in my own life since I have consecrated myself to Jesus Christ through His Mother. Before I was miserable and had too many problems. Now, I still know I have sinned very greatly. But I have much hope in God's Mercy. And I still have a cross to bear, but it is sweet. Here are our Lady of Guadalupe's words:

"Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary, Mother of the God of truth through Whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near us, the Lord of heaven and earth. I want very much to have a little house built here for me, in which I will show Him, I will exalt Him and make Him manifest. I will give Him to the people in all my personal love, in my compassion, in my help, in my protection: because I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings. And to bring about what my compassionate and merciful concern is trying to achieve, you must go to the residence of the Bishop of Mexico and tell him that I sent you here to show him how strongly I wish him to build me a temple here on the plain; you will report to him exactly all you have seen, admired and what you have heard. Know for sure I will appreciate it very much, be grateful and will reward you. And you? You will deserve very much the reward I will give you for your fatigue, the work and trouble that my mission will cause you. Now my dearest son, you have heard my breath, my word; go now and put forth your best effort."
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html

 

[bbbbbbb]

As I understand it, the place where the Mother of God appeared on Tepeyac hill had been associated--at some point anyway--with the goddess "Tonantzin", who was associated with fertility and the earth. Mary is the New Earth who conceived God the Savior in her womb. My understanding is that God does affirm what is good in native cultures, while at the same time--through Mary and Christ--saving the people from what is bad. This reminds me of St. Paul using the statue of an "unknown God" to proclaim that Christ is that unknown God. I know that Mary clearly identified herself not as Tonantzin, but as the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God who created all that is. Thus she is clearly affirming Monotheism.

I love our Lady of Guadalupe and find Christ through her and venerate her icon. What she said has been reflected in my own life since I have consecrated myself to Jesus Christ through His Mother. Before I was miserable and had too many problems. Now, I still know I have sinned very greatly. But I have much hope in God's Mercy. And I still have a cross to bear, but it is sweet. Here are our Lady of Guadalupe's words:

"Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary, Mother of the God of truth through Whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near us, the Lord of heaven and earth. I want very much to have a little house built here for me, in which I will show Him, I will exalt Him and make Him manifest. I will give Him to the people in all my personal love, in my compassion, in my help, in my protection: because I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings. And to bring about what my compassionate and merciful concern is trying to achieve, you must go to the residence of the Bishop of Mexico and tell him that I sent you here to show him how strongly I wish him to build me a temple here on the plain; you will report to him exactly all you have seen, admired and what you have heard. Know for sure I will appreciate it very much, be grateful and will reward you. And you? You will deserve very much the reward I will give you for your fatigue, the work and trouble that my mission will cause you. Now my dearest son, you have heard my breath, my word; go now and put forth your best effort."
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

I know that you probably will be unable to read it all. Of most interest is this paragraph -

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.

Thus, you see, the Mexicans conflated Mary with their Mother Goddess, Tonantzin.

 

[patricius79]

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

I know that you probably will be unable to read it all. Of most interest is this paragraph -

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.

Thus, you see, the Mexicans conflated Mary with their Mother Goddess, Tonantzin.

According to one of the sources cited in the Wikipedia article, "Tonantzin" means "Our Mother". I can't speak to the consciences of anyone, but there isn't anything wrong in itself with calling Mary "Our Mother". I think that's exactly who the Mother of God is. She--the highest of all creatures-- is Our Mother. If some were not understanding Catholic teaching well due to their recent conversion, or if they were still--like all of us--confused and sinful, I don't see how that in the least compromises the credibility of the apparition of the Mother of God to Juan Diego, nor of the beautiful, miraculous image that is still--inexplicably--still intact today. Christ came not for the righteous, but for sinners.

 

[bbbbbbb]

According to one of the sources cited in the Wikipedia article, "Tonantzin" means "Our Mother". I can't speak to the consciences of anyone, but there isn't anything wrong in itself with calling Mary "Our Mother". I think that's exactly who the Mother of God is. She--the highest of all creatures-- is Our Mother. If some were not understanding Catholic teaching well due to their recent conversion, or if they were still--like all of us--confused and sinful, I don't see how that in the least compromises the credibility of the apparition of the Mother of God to Juan Diego, nor of the beautiful, miraculous image that is still--inexplicably--still intact today. Christ came not for the righteous, but for sinners.

You can be quite certain that Tonantzin, prior to the "conversion" of the Mexicans bore as much resemblance to Mary as Itzamna did to God, the Father.

 

[prodromos]

You can be quite certain that Tonantzin, prior to the "conversion" of the Mexicans bore as much resemblance to Mary as Itzamna did to God, the Father.

You seem to be making Patricius79's argument for him. ???