The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[EmSw]

Some gift. The strings that were attached REQUIRED HARD WORK on his part in order to get the car. Duh!

I'm reminded of a parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25.

The servant who received one talent was afraid and hid his Lord's talent. He did not work with the talent given. He was lethargic and apathetic and cared not for work. His Lord called him evil and slothful. His lord he should have done something with the talent. This unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

Jesus called this servant slothful, or lazy. This servant's desire was not to work, just as yours.

I don't care.


In your example, he HAD TO WORK HARD AND RAISE HIS GRADES. No grace at all. All work and NO GRACE.

I'm sorry you don't care.

Why do you think grace does not involve works? Grace is only favor. Does God not favor anyone who works? Does God favor the lazy and slothful?

Oh, he paid all right. He paid in long hours of studying, working hard to raise his grades. Don't kid yourself.

Do you have objections to working? Or, would you love to be lazy and slothful?

Because of your statement, "according to his deeds" he absolutely WORKED for getting the car. Don't kid yourself.

What if he were slothful and didn't work to raise his grades? Would that have gotten him to college, and subsequently the gift? Many people in this world are given the gift of scholarships. Are you telling me they do not have to work to keep their grades up to receive the scholarship? What kind of thinking is this?

That's NOT my position, which I've made clear. Are you not paying any attention?

If this is not your position, then why should anyone work to receive a gift? It should be given to everyone. Why is it not given to everyone? Please tell me without attaching any strings.

The whole point is that he HAD TO WORK HARD to raise his grades to get into college and get the car. He paid in "sweat equity". Ever hear of that?

You keep agreeing with me. Yes, there was work on the grandson's part to receive the gift. Could the grandson received the gift without any work on his part?

Jesus did it all on the cross. That's grace, a principle that you clearly do not understand. Why are you so comfortable with that?

Then why doesn't everyone benefit from the cross? Why doesn't an unbeliever benefit from the cross? Please explain your attached strings.

In order to show yourself NOT a deceitful and dishonest person, you need to actually describe my correct view.

Your view is contradictory. If I explain it one way, you will switch directions and go another way. You do not accept, nor believe Paul's words in Romans 2. It is difficult to describe view of those who do not agree, nor believe the word.

I said that man cannot EARN or DESERVE salvation. I NEVER said "do nothing". In fact, what did the jailer ask Paul and company?

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" What do you think Paul's answer was? Get a tutor, study real hard, get your grades up so you qualify to get into heaven? Really?

No, he said this: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Wow, now you attach strings to salvation. You are something else.

Totally different than your scenario.

But, as I already noted, we're just talking over each other's heads. Nothing of what I've said has soaked in.

I prefer not to soak in beliefs which deny Romans 2 is a truth. Once you believe Romans 2 to be the truth, we can have a decent conversation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Some gift. The strings that were attached REQUIRED HARD WORK on his part in order to get the car. Duh!"

I'm reminded of a parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25.

The servant who received one talent was afraid and hid his Lord's talent. He did not work with the talent given. He was lethargic and apathetic and cared not for work. His Lord called him evil and slothful. His lord he should have done something with the talent. This unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

Jesus called this servant slothful, or lazy.

Because he was. And don't forget, he WAS a servant.

This servant's desire was not to work, just as yours.

Your penchant for misjudging others is a sin. Rom 14:13 - Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in abrother’s way.

Your so-called judgments are bogus.

Why do you think grace does not involve works? Grace is only favor. Does God not favor anyone who works? Does God favor the lazy and slothful?

"We are saved by grace, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8,9 I cannot imagine how you've twisted the meaning out of this.

Do you have objections to working?

Nope. But I KNOW that no one can work for salvation. No one. We work for blessings and reward. Isa 1:18-20 SAYS so.

Or, would you love to be lazy and slothful?

Nope.

What if he were slothful and didn't work to raise his grades? Would that have gotten him to college, and subsequently the gift?

Quit calling the strings attached car a gift. It was no gift. It had to be earned. Grace cannot be earned. Don't you get it?

Many people in this world are given the gift of scholarships.

Irrelevant.

Are you telling me they do not have to work to keep their grades up to receive the scholarship? What kind of thinking is this?

This isn't about grace, but school work. Why don't you stay focused on God's plan for salvation, which is by grace, not of works?

If this is not your position, then why should anyone work to receive a gift?

If one has to work for something, it is NO GIFT. Period.

It should be given to everyone. Why is it not given to everyone? Please tell me without attaching any strings.

I already did. But it seems clear enough that we're just talking over each other's heads.

First; who says "it should be given to everyone"? God's Word is clear about to whom His free gift will be given.
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. no works here
John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” no works here

You've agreed that believing is non-meritorious, so believing in Christ isn't a work.

 

[corinth77777]

One thing I learned From Dallas willard is this.....while we are not saved by works to "Earn" salvation....Salvation is not opposed to effort. And for myself the way I see God work is...when we take the steps of faith...acting upon what we believe..is when I have seen God come to my aid....so we must be doers of his word...and doing is work....so again while we do not work to "earn" salvation salvation is not opposed to effort. Noah not only built the ark but he got in....while salvation is a gift...it is through faith...and we exercise our faith in many ways not so much in what we say but what we do....and it is thereby in what we do that shows what lives inside....salvation is ongoing..for you can be also not only be saved in the future but from present circumstances...so then the question is when is salvation speaking of our regeneration as being transformed and changed daily as opposed to our future salvation which is also in Christ now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One thing I learned From Dallas willard is this.....while we are not saved by works to "Earn" salvation....Salvation is not opposed to effort. And for myself the way I see God work is...when we take the steps of faith...acting upon what we believe..is when I have seen God come to my aid....so we must be doers of his word...and doing is work....so again while we do not work to "earn" salvation salvation is not opposed to effort. Noah not only built the ark but he got in....while salvation is a gift...it is through faith...and we exercise our faith in many ways not so much in what we say but what we do....and it is thereby in what we do that shows what lives inside....salvation is ongoing..for you can be also not only be saved in the future but from present circumstances...so then the question is when is salvation speaking of our regeneration as being transformed and changed daily as opposed to our future salvation which is also in Christ now?

Yes, a person can receive a car as a free gift, but if they neglect the responsibilities in owning a car they could forfeit that gift by running red lights, drinking while driving, ignoring their notice to renew their registration on their car, and ignoring general maintenance of that car, etc. However, if a person had to work hard with the hope that they will receive a car one day, then they are striving to earn or work for a car instead of somebody giving it to them as a free gift. One is a gift with the responsibilites thereof, and the other is a working or striving to earn something one day.


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, a person can receive a car as a free gift, but if they neglect the responsibilities in owning a car they could forfeit that gift by running red lights, drinking while driving, ignoring their notice to renew their registration on their car, and ignoring general maintenance of that car, etc.

And all of this is completely irrelevant to receiving the free gift of eternal life. Those who believe in Christ are said to be "in Him" per Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The free gift of eternal life is for those who are "in Him" - Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And, the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE - Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

To believe that one's salvation can be lost, forfeited, etc, simply reject all that Scripture has to say.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Deleted

 

[-57]

Yes, a person can receive a car as a free gift, but if they neglect the responsibilities in owning a car they could forfeit that gift by running red lights, drinking while driving, ignoring their notice to renew their registration on their car, and ignoring general maintenance of that car, etc. However, if a person had to work hard with the hope that they will receive a car one day, then they are striving to earn or work for a car instead of somebody giving it to them as a free gift. One is a gift with the responsibilites thereof, and the other is a working or striving to earn something one day.


....

Salvation is a free gift. That's what the bible teaches. And yes, there is responsibility with receiving the free gift.

On the other hand, if the bible said no one could snatch the car from Jesus' hand....the car would remain yours no matter what.

Your theology seems to say....Jesus gives you a car to use. The car really belongs to Jesus and He will take it from you if you run a red light. At the end of the day...if you drive responsible...Jesus will title the car to you.

Your salvation is free with a price theology has problems.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation is a free gift. That's what the bible teaches. And yes, there is responsibility with receiving the free gift.

On the other hand, if the bible said no one could snatch the car from Jesus' hand....the car would remain yours no matter what.

Your theology seems to say....Jesus gives you a car to use. The car really belongs to Jesus and He will take it from you if you run a red light. At the end of the day...if you drive responsible...Jesus will title the car to you.

Your salvation is free with a price theology has problems.

Yes, we are not our own and we are bought and paid for with a price. There are consequences to everything you do. You seem to think God will just turn a blind eye to a believer's one or two sins as long as they generally live a holy life. It doesn't work like that. There is no difference between committing one evil and lots of evil. A man is a evil even if he commits just one sin. For example: Let's say a believer murders someone. Is it okay because he only did it one time? No.. Of course not. But if what you say is true, and a believer can get away with committing one sin, then there would have been no fall of mankind by Adam committing just one sin (i.e. the running of the red light so to speak). For you do not seem to care about the consequences of could happen if you do run a red light. Have you ever thought you could take the life a child? Let's hope you don't run red lights like a lot of people do here in Texas. For I see your belief as minimizing sin (even if it is just one or two sins). I see that this as not having the mind of Christ that Paul says he and others had (1 Corinthians 2:16).

The car analogy is a good one because it shows that a person can have their car taken away from them if they start to do stupid things with that car. This is a truth that holds to true for anything that is of value. If Bob beats and hates his wife and cheats on her, chances are she is going to leave Bob. Your belief not only does not exist in the Scriptures, it cannot be made into a real world example to show how it is good or true, either.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Why would Jesus use useless scare tactics of a person having their body cast into hell fire if they lust upon a woman? Why would Jesus threaten that we will not be forgiven if we do not forgive?

....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, we are not our own and we are bought and paid for with a price. There are consequences to everything you do.

No one has been arguing against that. But you still continue to beat that dead horse. The consequences for anyone who has believed in Christ and is a child of God falls under Heb 12:5-11
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

You seem to think God will just turn a blind eye to a believer's one or two sins as long as they generally live a holy life.

No one has been arguing that.

It doesn't work like that.

Correct. Heb 12:5-11 says so.

The car analogy is a good one because it shows that a person can have their car taken away from them if they start to do stupid things with that car.

It's a lousy analogy because the Bible NEVER teaches anywhere that one's salvation will be taken away for sin.

 

[ZacharyB]

... the Bible NEVER teaches anywhere that one's salvation will be taken away for sin.

3 NT passages of SIN LISTS (in 1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5) say people doing such sins
WILL NOT inherit/enter the kingdom of God/heaven (which is analogous to heaven itself).
IMO, these refer to people who sin habitually (sans repentance).
IMO, the believer can sincerely repent and be forgiven,
but then we have 2 troubling passages (in Heb and 2 Peter) which don't agree!

 

[FreeGrace2]

3 NT passages of SIN LISTS (in 1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5) say people doing such sins
WILL NOT inherit/enter the kingdom of God/heaven (which is analogous to heaven itself).

Stop right there. Where would get the idea that an inheritance means "entering"? Not from the Bible.

Of those 3 parallel passages, this is what Eph 5:5 says:
"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

It is IN the kingdom where one will find their inheritance, or not.

IMO, these refer to people who sin habitually (sans repentance).
IMO, the believer can sincerely repent and be forgiven,
but then we have 2 troubling passages (in Heb and 2 Peter) which don't agree!

There are no passages or verses that "don't agree". If that were true, then we can't trust the Bible as being truth. Because truth never disagrees with itself. That would mean that God is inconsistent. I will never believe that.

 

[EmSw]

Stop right there. Where would get the idea that an inheritance means "entering"? Not from the Bible.

Of those 3 parallel passages, this is what Eph 5:5 says:
"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

It is IN the kingdom where one will find their inheritance, or not.

Since it is IN the kingdom, one will find their inheritance, how does one receive the inheritance of eternal life if he doesn't enter?

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since it is IN the kingdom, one will find their inheritance, how does one receive the inheritance of eternal life if he doesn't enter?

The inheritance mentioned in the 3 parallel passages isn't eternal life. It is about rewards, or the lack thereof.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

This is about what is earned, obviously. And eternal life is a gift. Gifts are not earned by definition. So your verse doesn't apply.

 

[EmSw]

The inheritance mentioned in the 3 parallel passages isn't eternal life. It is about rewards, or the lack thereof.


This is about what is earned, obviously. And eternal life is a gift. Gifts are not earned by definition. So your verse doesn't apply.

If you don't want to believe what Jesus said, then you are on your own. You can choose and pick any verse you want. But remember this, Jesus said eternal life is inherited.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you don't want to believe what Jesus said, then you are on your own.

No, I'm with Jesus. And I assuredly believe what He said.

You can choose and pick any verse you want. But remember this, Jesus said eternal life is inherited.

And I've explained what He meant.

 

[EmSw]

No, I'm with Jesus. And I assuredly believe what He said.

And I've explained what He meant.

Eternal life is inherited! There exists no other explanation than that within your head.

 

[GillDouglas]

Eternal life is inherited! There exists no other explanation than that within your head.

Only children of God, members of His Church, parts of the Body of Christ, will inherit Eternal life.

 

[EmSw]

Only children of God, members of His Church, parts of the Body of Christ, will inherit Eternal life.

And, Jesus said those who keep His commandments will inherit eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is inherited! There exists no other explanation than that within your head.

Why does God give eternal life to those who believe in His Son? Because they become His children, and children of God are heirs of God - Rom 8:16,17a - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God

But there is another kind of inheritance; that which is a reward, which is earned, as these verses very clearly indicate:
Rom 8:17b - and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
2 Tim 2:12a - If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
Rev 22:12 - “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

And you don't have an answer to any of these verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And, Jesus said those who keep His commandments will inherit eternal life.

The keeping of commandments comes under the concept of earning something by what one does.

Paul contrasted grace and works. Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

I honestly do not understand how you don't see that v.5 totally refutes your opinion.

Then, Eph 2;8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, we are saved BY GRACE, not of ourselves, and not as a result of works. How is that not real clear?

But, Rom 11:6 totally shatters the notion that one must earn eternal life:
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

So, is salvation by grace, or by works? It's by grace as Eph 2:8 says. Therefore, it is NO LONGER ON THE BASIS OF WORKS.