Anyone else tired of the police-hate threads

[Rick Otto]

Hands-up don't shoot did, absolutely happen. We'll never know for sure if it happened in Ferguson (i'm willing to believe it probably didn't), but it did happen:

2nd more, clear video of man shot with hands up here:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...eals-details-in-fatal-shooting-of-6692051.php

Mhm.
It looks like hands up is the signal to start shooting.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you have a link for the 2400+ officers killed?
tulc(is just curious)

http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/cops-killing-and-being-killed

2445 to be exact.

 

[The Cadet]

Some cop getting paid 50k a year has to wait until someone else shoots first?

When dealing with a kid in an open space waving what may or may not be a gun around with no target in particular? They should at least wait until it's clear that there's any threat to their lives. You might as well ask, "Should some volunteer firefighter be expected to run into a burning building?" Yeah, it's kinda in the job description. We hold these people to high standards because if we don't, things like this happen.

Are the interactions negative because of the cops?

Largely, yes.

Or are the negative because of a false narrative the black community/media is portraying about cops?

There is no false narrative here. Racial bias is extremely prevalent in every level of law enforcement.

 

[tulc]

http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/cops-killing-and-being-killed

2445 to be exact.

Thanks! Been here? https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2016?ref=sidebar On here they break the deaths down into categories and also have a short blurb on the officer who died and the circumstances. They also include police K9 deaths in the statistics.
tulc(nice site, very well run!)

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thanks! Been here? https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2016?ref=sidebar On here they break the deaths down into categories and also have a short blurb on the officer who died and the circumstances. They also include police K9 deaths in the statistics.
tulc(nice site, very well run!)

Lol no...I tend to stay away from those sites...I find them to be a bit of a downer.

I'd like to state that in spite of the tone of my posts, I don't like our current criminal justice situation in the U.S. I don't like it that so many people get killed by cops (even though it's not really a large number, I'd still prefer if our statistics were closer to that of the rest of the 1st world), I don't like it that so many cops are killed by civilians, and I certainly don't like the amount of violence that the average citizen (and cop) faces due to crime.

I just don't think it's accurate to place the blame on the police force. We live in a nation where guns are so prevalent that most children can get them easier than they can get marijuana. We live in a nation where people think everyone should be able to pack heat wherever they go. As a result of these things...we live in a nation where cops are inclined to assume the worst (justifiably in my mind) of everyone they encounter and keep that mindset as the starting point for every call they answer.

There's a lot that can be done about this...from reducing income inequality, to improving public education, and putting smarter restrictions on firearms. That's what I see as real solutions to the crime situation we have in this nation.

It's not like I don't understand why the media is so caught up in this narrative of an increasingly violent and criminal police force. It sells...period. Giving a more realistic picture of the police doesn't sell. Stories about how poverty and the lack of opportunities to rise above it can create criminals doesn't sell. Stories about how widespread proliferation of guns leading to a more violent culture in general isn't even a story that anyone can get anywhere with because our government (with some prodding by the NRA) has all but made it illegal to get accurate statistics on the topic.

It's just my opinion that given the massive income inequality, the poor and outdated public education sector, and maybe the loosest gun laws in the first world....we've got about as good of a police force as we can reasonably expect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thanks! Been here? https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2016?ref=sidebar On here they break the deaths down into categories and also have a short blurb on the officer who died and the circumstances. They also include police K9 deaths in the statistics.
tulc(nice site, very well run!)

Also wanted to mention that although I've never read anything from that site I quoted when you asked for a citation...they have some pretty smart articles. There was one by the same writer (I think) that basically pointed out how our gun laws are so loose...there's really nothing a cop can do to stop a potential criminal walking around with an AR-15 until the criminal decides to open fire on a bunch of people (or at least until it appears he's about to open fire on a bunch of people).

 

[Ana the Ist]

When dealing with a kid in an open space waving what may or may not be a gun around with no target in particular? They should at least wait until it's clear that there's any threat to their lives. You might as well ask, "Should some volunteer firefighter be expected to run into a burning building?" Yeah, it's kinda in the job description. We hold these people to high standards because if we don't, things like this happen.

Can we at least agree that the cop didn't break the law? I get that you think he exercised poor judgment...but you do realize that he didn't break the law...right?

I do think that it's a tragedy that Tamir Rice was killed. Obviously, I'd prefer a world where kids don't get shot at all. I just don't see how we can get there with our current gun laws. That's the funny thing about guns...they kill people just as easily regardless of the age of the shooter. A gun in the hands of an 8 year old child isn't less deadly than a gun in the hands of a 40 year old man. They may have a difference in skill level...but that's really the only difference.

It's not as if children shooting and killing people in this nation is a extremely rare event either...it happens...multiple times a year if I'm not mistaken. I remember reading about a kid who took a gun to school and killed a classmate during class not long ago. Even more recently, I remember a thread about an 8yo who tried to rob a grocery store with a pistol. If these sorts of things didn't happen in this great nation of ours...maybe the cop in the Rice case would've given Tamir the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, maybe not...it's not exactly as if Rice was the size of a typical 12yo. His autopsy had him listed as 5'7" and 195lbs...that's a big 12yo by anyone's standards. I doubt that if I saw him in the park that day I would've guessed he was younger than 15-16. I don't know how many people could accurately assess his age in the 2 seconds of that confrontation.

There is no false narrative here. Racial bias is extremely prevalent in every level of law enforcement.

Ok...how do you know that? It's a rather large and sweeping generalization so I hope you've got something to back it up.

 

[The Cadet]

Can we at least agree that the cop didn't break the law? I get that you think he exercised poor judgment...but you do realize that he didn't break the law...right?

He was acquitted by a grand jury. I feel that he should at least have been on the hook for voluntary manslaughter. The idea that he could just roll up on the scene like that and immediately open fire just doesn't sit right. It shows a degree of paranoia that should not be acceptable.

Ok...how do you know that? It's a rather large and sweeping generalization so I hope you've got something to back it up.

Drug arrests:
https://www.aclu.org/feature/war-marijuana-black-and-white

Traffic stops:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us/racial-disparity-traffic-stops-driving-black.html?_r=0

Stop and frisk:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...he_controversial_policy_is_really_really.html

Sentencing:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.VsQp9_nhCJA

Shootings:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

I'd search for more, but my break is almost over and these statistics are not hard to find.

 

[Ana the Ist]

He was acquitted by a grand jury. I feel that he should at least have been on the hook for voluntary manslaughter. The idea that he could just roll up on the scene like that and immediately open fire just doesn't sit right. It shows a degree of paranoia that should not be acceptable.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion...but you're not really in a position to determine whether or not he should be legally culpable for involuntary manslaughter. Those who are, decided that he isn't. I agree with them.

Drug arrests:
https://www.aclu.org/feature/war-marijuana-black-and-white

Traffic stops:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us/racial-disparity-traffic-stops-driving-black.html?_r=0

Stop and frisk:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...he_controversial_policy_is_really_really.html

Sentencing:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.VsQp9_nhCJA

Shootings:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

I'd search for more, but my break is almost over and these statistics are not hard to find.

Regarding the rest of your post, did you read every article that you posted? I'm not trying to be condescending...I only ask because sometimes when someone posts multiple links, they don't fully read each one.

The short response is that these statistics don't show what you'd like them to. They don't show racism. They don't account for enough variables to reach that conclusion. Go back and read again your posting on sentencing...because that article in particular highlights the difficulties of demonstrating racism.

The conclusion from that article, was that race is a factor in sentencing...but they couldn't determine if race worked against blacks...or if it worked against whites more often. It only determined that it can be a factor.

Edit- If you'd like me to explain why these statistics don't show racism, I can, but I won't do it for each of them. Personally, I'm not interested in doing that much work on this topic lol.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

whatbogsends said: ↑
Hands-up don't shoot did, absolutely happen.
We'll never know for sure if it happened in Ferguson (i'm willing to believe it probably didn't), but it did happen:

Mhm.
It looks like hands up is the signal to start shooting.

One would think so..........

.

 

[brinny]

One would think so..........

.

Why did they shoot the men with their hands up......and then laughed about it?



(great moovie...i had forgotten that part...)

 

[Rick Otto]

Lol no...I tend to stay away from those sites...I find them to be a bit of a downer.

I'd like to state that in spite of the tone of my posts, I don't like our current criminal justice situation in the U.S. I don't like it that so many people get killed by cops (even though it's not really a large number, I'd still prefer if our statistics were closer to that of the rest of the 1st world), I don't like it that so many cops are killed by civilians, and I certainly don't like the amount of violence that the average citizen (and cop) faces due to crime.

I just don't think it's accurate to place the blame on the police force. We live in a nation where guns are so prevalent that most children can get them easier than they can get marijuana. We live in a nation where people think everyone should be able to pack heat wherever they go. As a result of these things...we live in a nation where cops are inclined to assume the worst (justifiably in my mind) of everyone they encounter and keep that mindset as the starting point for every call they answer.

There's a lot that can be done about this...from reducing income inequality, to improving public education, and putting smarter restrictions on firearms. That's what I see as real solutions to the crime situation we have in this nation.

It's not like I don't understand why the media is so caught up in this narrative of an increasingly violent and criminal police force. It sells...period. Giving a more realistic picture of the police doesn't sell. Stories about how poverty and the lack of opportunities to rise above it can create criminals doesn't sell. Stories about how widespread proliferation of guns leading to a more violent culture in general isn't even a story that anyone can get anywhere with because our government (with some prodding by the NRA) has all but made it illegal to get accurate statistics on the topic.

It's just my opinion that given the massive income inequality, the poor and outdated public education sector, and maybe the loosest gun laws in the first world....we've got about as good of a police force as we can reasonably expect.

Good post except a lot of stories are run, not based on what sells, rather on how the media owner is interested in shaping public opinion.

 

[brinny]

Mhm.
It looks like hands up is the signal to start shooting.

they shot him right after he put his hands up.....how many shots were fired?

 

[Rick Otto]

Why did they shoot the men with their hands up......and then laughed about it?



(great moovie...i had forgotten that part...)

They made a series of decisions that put themselves into a circumstance of limited choices.
They had begun the mission with no plans to take prisoners, I assume.

 

[brinny]

Good post except a lot of stories are run, not based on what sells, rather on how the media owner is interested in shaping public opinion.

that's.....

terrifying.

 

[Rick Otto]

they shot him right after he put his hands up.....how many shots were fired?

One would've been too many.

 

[brinny]

They made a series of decisions that put themselves into a circumstance of limited choices.
They had begun the mission with no plans to take prisoners, I assume.

What does that mean, "no plans to take prisoners"?

 

[Rick Otto]

that's.....

terrifying.

Yeah. Much in life is. That's why the Grimm brothers were such a success.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_Grimm

 

[Rick Otto]

What does that mean, "no plans to take prisoners"?

The mission's only purpose was to capture, dominate, and control something.
They considered enemy lives expendable. No resources were available, or offered, to accommodate prisoners.
If you don't have that planned and funded, it just represents an obstacle to the domination mission.

 

[brinny]

One would've been too many.

No wonder people run from the police.

They point blank assassinated this man, and right after he put his hands up.

God help us.

This video came on right after i watched the above video: