Why is God so hidden? Why must we seek Him to Find Him?

[HitchSlap]

Check what? it's my opinion just like yours. I am not here to argue. If you don't want enlightenment by all means walk around in the dark. It's your issue I am content and freely will share my knowledge yet I won't always cast my pearls before swine.

Ha. Nice.

 

[Colter]

Now we're getting somewhere. I won't talk about all the things you listed, but I will point out the one that is pertinent to our conversation:



I think I may need you to clarify this in your own words. Is this your definition of faith: "...the supreme assertion of human thought..."? Does that mean the the absolute pinnacle of what we can assert as a human is faith? Does it mean that we assert that there is a supreme being because of faith? I don't want to misconstrue the meaning of this statement.

But a follow up question just to keep things moving: why is faith desirable? I may need the clarification for the previous statement in order to understand an answer to that question based on the definition of faith used, but I can think of a lot of instances where I would rather "know for certain" than "have faith" so I wonder if faith is something that is desirable at all in the first place.

Faith is like sails to a ship, it is essential to moving forward in time to eternity. God is absolute truth, God is the first truth and the last fact. All truth takes origin in him while all facts are relative to him. For those who choose survival, there is no greater motivation in life than aligning our will to the will of God, from resurrection on the mansion worlds and beyond as we make our way inward towards our meeting with the Father, then onward into an undisclosed destiny as finalitors. To that end faith is desirable.

 

[Moral Orel]

For those who choose survival, there is no greater motivation in life than aligning our will to the will of God, from resurrection on the mansion worlds and beyond as we make our way inward towards our meeting with the Father, then onward into an undisclosed destiny as finalitors. To that end faith is desirable.

So faith is desirable because faith is how we get closer to God?

 

[Colter]

So faith is desirable because faith is how we get closer to God?

Faith is how we move forward and become more like God.

 

[Moral Orel]

Faith is how we move forward and become more like God.

How? Why? God doesn't have faith in anything, he knows for certain.

 

[thebackyardpreacher]

How? Why? God doesn't have faith in anything, he knows for certain.

I like to think of faith as knowing for certain. That's when the "magic" happens. Some say faith is the evidence of what is not seen. When faith is applied it seems to effect the natural world through the supernatural. As above so below. God possesses the greatest of faith when he speaks world's form and creatures arise from the mud. He dose not doubt. If we humans could fully grasp this, how anazing. It is,a mission of mine.

 

[Paterfamilia]

How? Why? God doesn't have faith in anything, he knows for certain.

If you guys don't mind me butting in, Faith is the substance our declaration that we acknowledge God for who He is. When God says something, our response should never be "prove it please". In that context, God would never stop proving Himself and the possibility of real relationship with Him would be damaged.

Faith is an essential element of relationship with God, and hiddeness as well.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I like to think of faith as knowing for certain. That's when the "magic" happens. Some say faith is the evidence of what is not seen. When faith is applied it seems to effect the natural world through the supernatural. As above so below. God possesses the greatest of faith when he speaks world's form and creatures arise from the mud. He dose not doubt. If we humans could fully grasp this, how anazing. It is,a mission of mine.

Faith is something that brings much assurance, does it not? John's First Epistle speaks of the certainty of faith: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5.13)

 

[Moral Orel]

Some say faith is the evidence

Faith is belief. That belief can be based on evidence or not. But faith contrarily cannot be evidence. If you want to redefine faith, this is not the thread for that. This thread is about finding God because he is hidden, and changing the definition of faith to something else entirely does not have anything to do with this discussion.

God possesses the greatest of faith

Again, God cannot have faith because he is omniscient. He simply knows. Faith means that it is at least possible to be uncertain.

When God says something, our response should never be "prove it please". In that context, God would never stop proving Himself and the possibility of real relationship with Him would be damaged.

There is a difference between "trust" and "faith". You can trust that God will do what he say, and that God feels what he feels because he says it. And you can have faith that God exists based on some evidence (or no evidence at all). When we talk about having faith that God even exists because he is hidden, we are not talking about whether or not we believe God is going to keep his word, that would be a different discussion entirely.

 

[thebackyardpreacher]

Faith is belief. That belief can be based on evidence or not. But faith contrarily cannot be evidence. If you want to redefine faith, this is not the thread for that. This thread is about finding God because he is hidden, and changing the definition of faith to something else entirely does not have anything to do with this discussion.

Again, God cannot have faith because he is omniscient. He simply knows. Faith means that it is at least possible to be uncertain.


There is a difference between "trust" and "faith". You can trust that God will do what he say, and that God feels what he feels because he says it. And you can have faith that God exists based on some evidence (or no evidence at all). When we talk about having faith that God even exists because he is hidden, we are not talking about whether or not we believe God is going to keep his word, that would be a different discussion entirely.

I would argue your definition of faith.

 

[Colter]

How? Why? God doesn't have faith in anything, he knows for certain.

Faith is the price we pay for entrance into the family of God. God doesn't need to have faith, but we do.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I'm not telling God what he ought to do. I'm pointing out to you that God chose to do things this way, since you seem to be under the impression that there was no other option. God made the choice to hide, because he wants us to seek him, and that is what the OP asked. Saying, "Because God designed it that way" isn't an answer.



Again, why did God make our particular design this way. That is the question. Not, "Why do physical eyes not see spiritual things". You aren't answering the question at hand. You're stating the question is something different than it is.

The obvious answer is that it is supposed to be difficult, which I'm sure doesn't satisfy you. The truth is that there is a big part of us that will never be satisfied with any answer to this question. However, that big part of us isn't where we access our faith or determination from; it's what needs to be overcome.

Have you ever heard of a rite of passage? Before going through one, I'm sure the participant has some kind of preconceived notion of its purpose. They probably question why it has to be so difficult. What they don't realize is that the real value comes in the internal transformation that happens as a result of the struggle and the newly realized insights about themselves that they never would have been aware of before.

 

[Colter]

If you guys don't mind me butting in, Faith is the substance our declaration that we acknowledge God for who He is. When God says something, our response should never be "prove it please". In that context, God would never stop proving Himself and the possibility of real relationship with Him would be damaged.

Faith is an essential element of relationship with God, and hiddeness as well.

Good point! In the case of Jesus he did some rather obvious things which still proved to be unsatisfying in the end. Some even accused him of evil!

 

[Paterfamilia]

Good point! In the case of Jesus he did some rather obvious things which still proved to be unsatisfying in the end. Some even accused him of evil!

Too true.

With regard to God's hiddeness, it seems to me that He is hidden in some measure from every one of His created intelligences. Something someone wrote prompted me to look up Charles Hodge (1797-1878) who wrote out a very detailed theodicy and purpose statement for God's creation of the universe a little less than 200 years ago.

I will paraphrase - "God created this physical universe to give Himself the best possible context for revealing Himself as the singular maximally great being to all of His created intelligent beings. That revelation is not possible in the absence of commensurate evil."

So His plan of measured revelation has an ultimate purpose. That we should at least have available everything He wants us to know about Him when we need to know and still maintain full relationship.

 

[Moral Orel]

Faith is the price we pay for entrance into the family of God. God doesn't need to have faith, but we do.

Why? What is the purpose of faith? When I asked you that before you said that it was desirable. I asked why it was desirable and now you say that it is a price you pay.

So to sum up where we are at.

I asked, "Why do we have to seek God to get close to him?"

You replied, "Because faith is a good thing."

I asked, "Why is it a good thing?"

You replied, "Because that is how we get close to God".

Do you see the circle?

 

[Moral Orel]

The obvious answer is that it is supposed to be difficult, which I'm sure doesn't satisfy you.

Well no, it doesn't satisfy, but only because "difficult" is so vague. What are we supposed to learn from believing in something without proof?

Have you ever heard of a rite of passage? Before going through one, I'm sure the participant has some kind of preconceived notion of its purpose. They probably question why it has to be so difficult. What they don't realize is that the real value comes in the internal transformation that happens as a result of the struggle and the newly realized insights about themselves that they never would have been aware of before.

Not everyone that gets into Heaven has to go through a rite of passage to get there though. I think a lot of people would agree that babies and young children get a free pass. And some folk get saved right at the end of their life, which is good enough for entry too.

I'll add to that too. What about naive and gullible people? I'm not saying every Christian is gullible, but some people are, and it is much easier for them to gain faith than someone who thinks critically. Even if it can be argued that eventually, through critical thinking, it should lead to belief in God, gullible people don't need to go through that rite of passage at all.

 

[Moral Orel]

So His plan of measured revelation has an ultimate purpose.

Okay, but what is the purpose? This isn't the purpose:

That we should at least have available everything He wants us to know about Him when we need to know and still maintain full relationship.

This is the method of being hidden. How much he chooses to reveal is not the purpose of why he is hidden.

 

[Moral Orel]

I would argue your definition of faith

A lot of Christians would. However, in the context of the OP's question, and in the context of the statement made by the person I was replying to, your definition is irrelevant.

 

[Colter]

Why? What is the purpose of faith? When I asked you that before you said that it was desirable. I asked why it was desirable and now you say that it is a price you pay.

So to sum up where we are at.

I asked, "Why do we have to seek God to get close to him?"

You replied, "Because faith is a good thing."

I asked, "Why is it a good thing?"

You replied, "Because that is how we get close to God".

Do you see the circle?

Where we are at is you asking the same questions over and over but not listening to the answers ....as if this is an inquisition.

If you are unwilling to except the answers then don't ask the questions.

 

[Colter]

Too true.

With regard to God's hiddeness, it seems to me that He is hidden in some measure from every one of His created intelligences. Something someone wrote prompted me to look up Charles Hodge (1797-1878) who wrote out a very detailed theodicy and purpose statement for God's creation of the universe a little less than 200 years ago.

I will paraphrase - "God created this physical universe to give Himself the best possible context for revealing Himself as the singular maximally great being to all of His created intelligent beings. That revelation is not possible in the absence of commensurate evil."

So His plan of measured revelation has an ultimate purpose. That we should at least have available everything He wants us to know about Him when we need to know and still maintain full relationship.

Thanks for that quote of Hodge's. I have one from the UB:


"Primitive religion had many personal gods, and they were fashioned in the image of man. Revelation affirms the validity of the personality concept of God which is merely possible in the scientific postulate of a First Cause and is only provisionally suggested in the philosophic idea of Universal Unity. Only by personality approach can any person begin to comprehend the unity of God. To deny the personality of the First Source and Center leaves one only the choice of two philosophic dilemmas: materialism or pantheism.

In the contemplation of Deity, the concept of personality must be divested of the idea of corporeality. A material body is not indispensable to personality in either man or God. The corporeality error is shown in both extremes of human philosophy. In materialism, since man loses his body at death, he ceases to exist as a personality; in pantheism, since God has no body, he is not, therefore, a person. The superhuman type of progressing personality functions in a union of mind and spirit.

Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes." UB 1955