When did the interbreeding between the created species (of man) and the evolved species?

Neogaia777

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Was Cain the first to interbreed with another pocket of evolved humanity, when it says he ran away to a far country, Did Cain take his wife from one of the evolved pockets of humanity, and was he the first to begin interbreeding between a created species, with an evolved species, and other sons and daughters of Adam & Eve, interbred later on? (when they encountered other pockets of growing evolved humans)...

Comments?

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Papias

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Was Cain the first to interbreed with another pocket of evolved humanity, when it says he ran away to a far country, Did Cain take his wife from one of the evolved pockets of humanity, and was he the first to begin interbreeding between a created species, with an evolved species, and other sons and daughters of Adam & Eve, interbred later on? (when they encountered other pockets of growing evolved humans)...

Comments?

God Bless!

It depends on what version of Theistic Evolution the person thinks is most likely to be correct. For most, the question is wrong.

Most theistic evolution supporters don't see separate categories of "created" vs. "evolved" species. Instead, all species were created through the use of evolution. It's like asking which cars "were made using steel" and which "have wheels". When for cars, both are true.

Many theistic evolution supporters don't see a literal, historical Cain as real. All (non-celibate) humans interbred with evolved creatures (other humans), and all are both evolved and created (they were created using evolution).

Theistic evolution supporters generally don't see a real alternative to being evolved, since they generally don't think any species of animals were "poofed" into existence.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Hoghead1

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I would probably qualify as a theistic evolutionary thinker, though I would prefer other terms. Anyhow, Anyhow, I am not sure what you mean when you say the Bible is God's word. If you mean inerrant, then I have to disagree with you. For example, I find Genesis provides not one, but two contradictory accounts of creation. Also, I find numerous contradictions in Scripture. That doesn't mean throw the Bible out, just that divinely inspired as it may be, it carries the stamp of definite human fingerprints as well.
 
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Neogaia777

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I would probably qualify as a theistic evolutionary thinker, though I would prefer other terms. Anyhow, Anyhow, I am not sure what you mean when you say the Bible is God's word. If you mean inerrant, then I have to disagree with you. For example, I find Genesis provides not one, but two contradictory accounts of creation. Also, I find numerous contradictions in Scripture. That doesn't mean throw the Bible out, just that divinely inspired as it may be, it carries the stamp of definite human fingerprints as well.
Could you maybe please name or show the two contradictions, and we can maybe get this sorted out...?
 
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Hoghead1

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Sure, no problem, Neogaia. There are around 100 well-documented contradictions in Scripture. I can't list them all out here. I'll jus give some examples. 2 Sam. 21:19 says that Elhanan killed Goliath. Now, some Bibles have "brother of" inserted in here, to gloss over the contradiction. But the original Hebrew simply says Elhanan killed Goliath. So, who did kill Goliath ? David? Elhanan? Another concerns Paul's pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Acts gives five such pilgrimages. Paul lists only three. It has proved impossible to harmonize these two conflicting accounts. Another example is the Genesis account of creation. Below is my take on this key topic.



When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Papias

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Theistic Evolution to me means:

1. The Bible is God's word

2. God does not lie

3. The theory of evolution is a fact


On these three premises, I operated, and concluded these things...

God Bless!

Yes, I think that's a simple, clear, and correct description.

Incidentally, the same can be done for other similar positions - all for someone who is a reasonable Christian. To do so, just change #3 to say, for instance:


3. The theory of germs is a fact
or...

3. The theory of gravity is a fact

3. The theory of a spherical earth is a fact

3. The theory of heliocentrism is a fact

3. The theory of DNA is a fact

All of these, just like evolution, are supported by huge amounts of evidence, and are facts. And just like evolution, one can use a literal interpretation of one's Bible which would contradict these facts. Or, for all of them, one can use a less literal interpretation and the "problem" goes away.

The details on the contradictions that Hogshead just went over are interesting, but they seem a little bit of a tangent. Yes, I do think there are plenty of contradictions, if one reads their Bible literally only. For instance the two genealogies given in 1 Chronicles and Mt 1 for the same people contradict each other, as do the Gospel accounts of the resurrection. But there don't have to be contradictions, when other (non literal) interpretations are used.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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-57

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It depends on what version of Theistic Evolution the person thinks is most likely to be correct. For most, the question is wrong.

Most theistic evolution supporters don't see separate categories of "created" vs. "evolved" species. Instead, all species were created through the use of evolution. It's like asking which cars "were made using steel" and which "have wheels". When for cars, both are true.

Many theistic evolution supporters don't see a literal, historical Cain as real. All (non-celibate) humans interbred with evolved creatures (other humans), and all are both evolved and created (they were created using evolution).

Theistic evolution supporters generally don't see a real alternative to being evolved, since they generally don't think any species of animals were "poofed" into existence.

In Christ-

Papias

The Jews back in bible times took their linage very seriously. Now this linage from Lukes Gospel mentions Seth, Cains brother who you said was a myth man. Was Seth also a myth man? Obviously the beginning of the linage was literal....do tell us where the linage changed to myth.

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

Heli,Matthat, Levi, Melki, Jannai, Joseph,Mattathias, Amos, Nahum, Esli, Naggai,Maath, Mattathias, Semein, Josech, Joda,Joanan, Rhesa, Zerubbabel, Shealtiel, Neri,Melki, Addi, Cosam, Elmadam, Er,Joshua, Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi,Simeon, Judah, Joseph, Jonam, Eliakim,Melea, Menna, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Boaz, Salmon, Nahshon,Amminadab, Ram, Hezron, Perez, Judah,Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Terah, Nahor,Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber, Shelah,Cainan, Arphaxad, Shem, Noah, Lamech,Methuselah, Enoch, Jared, Mahalalel, Kenan,Enosh, Seth, Adam, God.

Luke 3:23 Mary’s linage
 
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Papias

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Now this linage from Lukes Gospel mentions Seth, Cains brother who you said was a myth man.

The information referenced in my last post already shows that the Gospel writers considered the genealogies figurative, so Seth may well have been a figurative representation.

Are you arguing against Theistic Evolution, -57?

-Papias
 
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-57

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The information referenced in my last post already shows that the Gospel writers considered the genealogies figurative, so Seth may well have been a figurative representation.

Are you arguing against Theistic Evolution, -57?

-Papias

I doubt very, very much the Gospels writers considered the genealogies as figurative.

As far as arguing against Theistic Evolution...of course I am. The bible must be twisted in all sorts of ways to make it work.
 
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-57

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Yes, I think that's a simple, clear, and correct description.

Incidentally, the same can be done for other similar positions - all for someone who is a reasonable Christian. To do so, just change #3 to say, for instance:


3. The theory of germs is a fact
or...

3. The theory of gravity is a fact

3. The theory of a spherical earth is a fact

3. The theory of heliocentrism is a fact

3. The theory of DNA is a fact

All of these, just like evolution, are supported by huge amounts of evidence, and are facts. And just like evolution, one can use a literal interpretation of one's Bible which would contradict these facts. Or, for all of them, one can use a less literal interpretation and the "problem" goes away.

The details on the contradictions that Hogshead just went over are interesting, but they seem a little bit of a tangent. Yes, I do think there are plenty of contradictions, if one reads their Bible literally only. For instance the two genealogies given in 1 Chronicles and Mt 1 for the same people contradict each other, as do the Gospel accounts of the resurrection. But there don't have to be contradictions, when other (non literal) interpretations are used.

In Christ-

Papias

To date I have never seen an alledged contradiction that can't be explained. In fact I bet you the so-called contradictory Gospel account of the resurrection has been explained over 100 years ago....and people still use these arguments.
 
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Hoghead1

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Not so fast, -57. There are one of a number of biblical c0ontradictions that have yet to be resolved. For example, 2 Sam. 21:19 says that Elhanan killed Goliath. To cover up this contradiction, some Bibles say that Elhanan killed the "brother of" Goliath, but the Hebrew simply says Elhanan killed Goliath. There is also the matter of Paul's pilgrimages to Jerusalem, an important aspect of his ministry. Acts gives 5 trips. Paul gives there. To date, no one have been about to explain away this contradiction. And this is also true of the major contradictions between Gen. 1 and 2, which I will explain below.






















  1. \





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Papias

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I doubt very, very much the Gospels writers considered the genealogies as figurative.

How much you doubt is irrelevant. The fact is that Mt gives a clear indication that he sees the genealogy as figurative. However, that's not the point of this thread, which you are distracting from. If you want to discuss the figurative genealogies, simply start a thread for it in the main origins forum.

As far as arguing against Theistic Evolution...of course I am. The bible must be twisted in all sorts of ways to make it work.

This thread is in the Theistic Evolution section, where arguing against TE is not allowed. That is for the Origins forum. This forum is here so that people can ask stuff just of TEs. It's just like the Creationism sub-forum, where arguing against creationism is not allowed. According to forum rules, you need to take your argument to the main forum.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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-57

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How much you doubt is irrelevant. The fact is that Mt gives a clear indication that he sees the genealogy as figurative. However, that's not the point of this thread, which you are distracting from. If you want to discuss the figurative genealogies, simply start a thread for it in the main origins forum.

In Christ-

Papias

"The fact is that Mt gives a clear indication that he sees the genealogy as figurative." Really? Where?

Here's how it starts....The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Are you telling me David and Abraham were "figurative"?
 
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Papias

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"The fact is that Mt gives a clear indication that he sees the genealogy as figurative." Really? Where?

As I mentioned, it's not considerate to hijack someone else's thread with an off topic discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I'm happy to discuss it in the proper forum - so you are welcome to start a thread in the main forum. Or, if you don't actually want to discuss it, that's OK too.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Neogaia777

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Not so fast, -57. There are one of a number of biblical c0ontradictions that have yet to be resolved. For example, 2 Sam. 21:19 says that Elhanan killed Goliath. To cover up this contradiction, some Bibles say that Elhanan killed the "brother of" Goliath, but the Hebrew simply says Elhanan killed Goliath. There is also the matter of Paul's pilgrimages to Jerusalem, an important aspect of his ministry. Acts gives 5 trips. Paul gives there. To date, no one have been about to explain away this contradiction. And this is also true of the major contradictions between Gen. 1 and 2, which I will explain below.






















  1. \



When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
Genesis 1 through to 2:4 is a "summary" of all creation, beginning to end, then in 2:5 we get details of this summary...

"Lilith" is a medieval fairy tale, The bible does not teach that the earth is flat, in fact it was the first book to describe the earth as round (a circle) nor does it teach that everything revolves around the earth, that was medieval science that did that...

Your not going to let one possible error like someone else only "possibly" killing Goliath, keep you from denying the reality of Jesus Christ's existence, are you?

God Bless!
 
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Papias

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The bible does not teach that the earth is flat, in fact it was the first book to describe the earth as round (a circle)

This is a big topic that has been discussed many times. You mention "a circle", probably a reference to Is 40:22, which describes the earth as a circle - which is, a flat disk (like a coin). The hebrew word used means "flat disc". There is a Hebrew word for sphere, or ball, which is used elsewhere in the Bibles - but the earth is described as a flat disc, not a ball. Here are a discussion of the dozens of verses that describe the earth as flat - btw - Biblical scholars also point out that the Bibles describe the earth as flat. That's because God talks to us in terms we'll understand, and people then saw the world as flat.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ving-the-earth-is-flat.7917272/#post-68852838


Your not going to let one possible error like someone else only "possibly" killing Goliath, keep you from denying the reality of Jesus Christ's existence, are you?

God Bless!

As HH pointed out, it's not just one contradiction. Here is a clear graphic of possible contradictions:

mvq9Ax8.png

You can click on any arc (possible contradiction) and read the relevant verses, here: http://bibviz.com/
Perhaps most relevant are the historical inaccuracies and contradictions involving numbers, since those are clearly contradictions.

The point of this is that we can't take every word of scripture literally, or we will be calling our scripture "wrong". There are plenty of things in scripture which we know are not literally true - including contradictions. That's why it is important to remember the overall message from God - of being faithful to His divine purpose and love.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Hoghead1

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The existence of Christ is not the issue here, Neogaia. Your understanding of Genesis and the Bible is. The Bible was definitely not the first book to teach that the earth is round. Far from it, the biblical cosmology insists on a flat earth. That's why Rev. Samuel Robowtham, in writing "Earth Not a Globe," used at least 70 biblical references to back his argument. I am aware that some naïve persons have attempted to argue that the reference in Isaiah to the circle of the earth proves the Bible though the earth was round. However, carefully read, it does the opposite. The circle of the earth refers to the dome of the heavens, as from down here, the sky can look like a dome. The purpose of the passage is to insure the reader that God knows everything that goes on; sot it has God sitting at the top of the dome, looking down. That being the case, the prophet has to be assuming a flat earth. if it were round, then, from up above, looking down, God could not see everything. Also, I don't see in your post where you addressed any of my other points. You can writer off Liltih as a fairy tale. But that wasn't my point. My point is that the Lilith example illustrates the serious problems you have and the absurd conclusions you come to in assuming Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 are giving the same account.
 
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Neogaia777

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The existence of Christ is not the issue here, Neogaia. Your understanding of Genesis and the Bible is. The Bible was definitely not the first book to teach that the earth is round. Far from it, the biblical cosmology insists on a flat earth. That's why Rev. Samuel Robowtham, in writing "Earth Not a Globe," used at least 70 biblical references to back his argument. I am aware that some naïve persons have attempted to argue that the reference in Isaiah to the circle of the earth proves the Bible though the earth was round. However, carefully read, it does the opposite. The circle of the earth refers to the dome of the heavens, as from down here, the sky can look like a dome. The purpose of the passage is to insure the reader that God knows everything that goes on; sot it has God sitting at the top of the dome, looking down. That being the case, the prophet has to be assuming a flat earth. if it were round, then, from up above, looking down, God could not see everything. Also, I don't see in your post where you addressed any of my other points. You can writer off Liltih as a fairy tale. But that wasn't my point. My point is that the Lilith example illustrates the serious problems you have and the absurd conclusions you come to in assuming Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 are giving the same account.
The ancient peoples concepts of their world and perceptions of reality was a framework which God had to work with, that's why he "likens" things to others, which part of much of the symbology that is in the Bible...
 
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