Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Bro.T]

So I am ASKING. If there is such scriptures, I want to know about them. But please don't be "pulling my leg" here.

Lets review Daniel 9:24-27.(Verse 24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Verse 25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times: (Verse 26). "And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah
be cut off, but for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Verse 27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This scripture have nothing to do with the anti Christ or great tribulation, this is talking about the first coming of Jesus. Jesus had to die for the sin of the people, he had a half a week to do this. Lets go into Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

I like to mention that Jesus kept the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), but these are all the things Jesus had to do upon his first coming, because his ministry had to be cut off in the midst of the week. The cut off week didn't start until Jesus reach thirty years old, because of the law. But lets go into Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice in Luke Jesus stop after To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. But in Isaiah he told the rest of the prophecy, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; The vengeance is the second part of Jesus coming. Daniel say that the Messiah be cut off, and the Messiah was not cut off, Jesus would of did the last part of Isaiah. Now the day Jesus was cut off was on a Wednesday night, before we going into that I need know if you understand thus far, if not, tell me part you don't understand? Keep in mind...this has nothing to do with the great tribulation or anti Christ.

 

[Bro.T]

The pre-trib rapturists have changed the true meaning of the word Salvation. For them Salvation mean "being raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation". That is the only thing that they want to hear ...that is the only thing who can recomfort them, period !Now that the lie is solidly implented in their mind /like an Hindu Mantra/or a neuronnal programmation -which give them a good feeling - don't even try to explain to them that they have been fooled...they will repeat their mantra endlessly...just to get their feeling good sensation.

I am done with this topic...i give up !

Note: English is not my native language it is possible that the text contain syntax and grammar imperfection!

Lol...yeah you are so right, but something to truth leaks to those who are just watching and not responding. I understand the feeling but please don't give up, because those that are out there really need to hear the truth, who minds are not Hindu or program as you say...lol. Its written in Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. We are voices crying to the people and maybe some will listen.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said: Ever heard of Jacob and his sons?

Despite myself, BaBerean and many others posting scriptures proving that there is but one people of God, spiritual Israelites, pre-trib rapture believers must grip onto a separate Israel and Church, or their theory collapses.
Really, Lamad and all pre-trib rapture believers, if its impossible to let go of this belief; OK you take the consequences, but don't promote it or teach others at the risk of a more severe judgement. James 3:1

So answer the question that n2 would not answer: If those living in Israel mean nothing to God, WHY will He intervene as seen in the Ezekiel 38 battle?

 

[iamlamad]

The Christian nations of today are the lost tribes,they(Israel)went into captivity 200 years before their brother Judah...Do you not understand this,and that's why one cannot seperate Israel from the Church,which pretribbers and others do in error...

Who was commisioned to spread the gospel to the world?Christ said go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,the Jew's were never lost....

The problem is Israel even to this day don't know who they are

Here is word for word what Jesus said: “Don’t take the road leading to other nations, and don’t enter any Samaritan town. 6 Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So WHERE did they go? Of course they went throughout ISRAEL to the JEWS that were VERY lost spiritually. Of course it was the 12 that was sent out then. OF COURSE we can separate: we live in the US, and THEY live in Israel. WE accept Jesus as their Messiah, while they DON'T.

 

[iamlamad]

Lets review Daniel 9:24-27.(Verse 24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Verse 25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times: (Verse 26). "And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah
be cut off, but for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Verse 27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Just as I suspected, you were pulling my leg and wasting time. The "he" in verse 27 refers back to the prince that would come and destroy the city. The "he" that was the Roman Emperor of the day, TITUS. The next "he" is still future so cannot refer to Titus, but NEW "Roman" leader. Did you notice, "unto the END." We have not yet gotten "to the end."


This scripture have nothing to do with the anti Christ or great tribulation, this is talking about the first coming of Jesus. Jesus had to die for the sin of the people, he had a half a week to do this. Lets go into Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

There is simply NO PROOF written that Jesus' ministry was 3.5 years. You are pulling my leg. You think you know, when in fact you don't.

I like to mention that Jesus kept the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), but these are all the things Jesus had to do upon his first coming, because his ministry had to be cut off in the midst of the week. The cut off week didn't start until Jesus reach thirty years old, because of the law. But lets go into Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice in Luke Jesus stop after To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. But in Isaiah he told the rest of the prophecy, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; The vengeance is the second part of Jesus coming. Daniel say that the Messiah be cut off, and the Messiah was not cut off, Jesus would of did the last part of Isaiah. Now the day Jesus was cut off was on a Wednesday night, before we going into that I need know if you understand thus far, if not, tell me part you don't understand? Keep in mind...this has nothing to do with the great tribulation or anti Christ.

No need to go on. It is all theory with no proof. I believe there is ample proof that the 70th week of Daniel is FUTURE. When it comes, perhaps, just maybe, you will recognize it. When a nuke hits and all the grass is burned up and 1/3 of trees, and when 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, you will know the FIRST HALF of the 70th week has come. When you see the abomination, know that the first half is over.

 

[keras]

So answer the question that n2 would not answer: If those living in Israel mean nothing to God, WHY will He intervene as seen in the Ezekiel 38 battle?

You again show that you fail to read scriptures properly.
Is the people in the holy Land, the same as those there now? Are they living undefended now? Ezekiel 38:11
And there are plenty of prophesies saying how Judah, the current State of Israel, will be judged and punished for their apostasy, atheism, etc, and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-17
THEN, all the Lord's true believers, who stood firm in their faith during the Day of testing, 1 Peter 4:12, will NOT go to heaven, but will inhabit the holy Land. That is the truth of God's plan and anything else is false teaching.

So WHERE did they go? Of course they went throughout ISRAEL to the JEWS that were VERY lost spiritually. Of course it was the 12 that was sent out then. OF COURSE we can separate: we live in the US, and THEY live in Israel. WE accept Jesus as their Messiah, while they DON'T.

Where did the Apostles go to spread the Gospel? To Galatia, to Macedonia, to Spain, to India and even as many traditions attest: to England.

 

[BABerean2]

Here is word for word what Jesus said: “Don’t take the road leading to other nations, and don’t enter any Samaritan town. 6 Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So WHERE did they go? Of course they went throughout ISRAEL to the JEWS that were VERY lost spiritually. Of course it was the 12 that was sent out then. OF COURSE we can separate: we live in the US, and THEY live in Israel. WE accept Jesus as their Messiah, while they DON'T.

Your statement above is filled with error. Sam Nadler is a Jewish Christian who lives in Charlotte and runs Word of Messiah Ministries, which is now taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

There are both Jewish Christians and Arab Christians now living in the modern nation of Israel, along with Christians from other bloodlines as well.

There are also atheist and agnostic Gentiles and descendants of Jacob living in the United States and Israel.
Tel Aviv is now known as one of the "Gay Capitals" of the world.
Many of those now considered "religious Jews" have adopted "Talmudic Judaism", which is a perversion of God's Word.
The Talmud says some very nasty things about Jesus Christ.

Your attempts to force John Darby's doctrine onto the world do not match up with reality or God's Word.


Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.



Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

.

 

[iamlamad]

You again show that you fail to read scriptures properly.
Is the people in the holy Land, the same as those there now? Are they living undefended now? Ezekiel 38:11
And there are plenty of prophesies saying how Judah, the current State of Israel, will be judged and punished for their apostasy, atheism, etc, and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-17
THEN, all the Lord's true believers, who stood firm in their faith during the Day of testing, 1 Peter 4:12, will NOT go to heaven, but will inhabit the holy Land. That is the truth of God's plan and anything else is false teaching.

Where did the Apostles go to spread the Gospel? To Galatia, to Macedonia, to Spain, to India and even as many traditions attest: to England.

When the 12 were sent out, which was the scripture passage in question, they went ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

MOST of the cities and towns in Israel do not have walls around them.

There is no question, MUCH sorrow will still come to Israel, for the 10 nations that side with the Beast for "one hour" will hate Israel and will burn the Holy City, but before that some will be carried away to be made slaves. But the fact remains, the Ezekiel 38 battle will come, and God will DEFEND Israel. I personally think this battle is the very same battle as Armageddon. And God certainly will defend Israel.

 

[iamlamad]

Your statement above is filled with error. Sam Nadler is a Jewish Christian who lives in Charlotte and runs Word of Messiah Ministries, which is now taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

There are both Jewish Christians and Arab Christians now living in the modern nation of Israel, along with Christians from other bloodlines as well.

There are also atheist and agnostic Gentiles and descendants of Jacob living in the United States and Israel.
Tel Aviv is now known as one of the "Gay Capitals" of the world.
Many of those now considered "religious Jews" have adopted "Talmudic Judaism", which is a perversion of God's Word.
The Talmud says some very nasty things about Jesus Christ.

Your attempts to force John Darby's doctrine onto the world do not match up with reality or God's Word.


Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.



Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

.

How could what I wrote be "filled with error" when I copied and pasted SCRIPTURE? The passage you quoted go only to "the lost sheep of Israel," was for THAT TIME when Jesus sent out the 12. Will you pull it out of context and try to make it say something to fit a theory? Is that your kind of bible study? At that time, they went ONLY to villages in ISRAEL.

Try for once just believing what is written without a spin and without taking verses out of context?

Did you notice that at the great battle of Armageddon Jesus will come and defend Israel, even with all you said above concerning Israel? It seems Jesus has plans you know nothing of.

That remnant you speak of will be a remnant of ISRAEL.

 

[keras]

When the 12 were sent out, which was the scripture passage in question, they went ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Yes, the Gospel was rejected by the Jews, so it was preached to the lost sheep of Israel, who remain today scattered among the nations, and who accepted the message, becoming Christians. Matthew 21:43...yielding the proper fruit, as we see from the missionary activity of Christians, so believers can now can be grafted into Israel...... from every nation and language.

Your determination to maintain a separation between true Israelites and the Church, is seriously wrong and violates much scripture.

MOST of the cities and towns in Israel do not have walls around them.

The current State of Israel does have Iron Dome, it does have the best quality military force in the world, they do have nuke weapons..... in no way does that match the people in all of the holy Land at the time of the G/M attack.

 

[Bro.T]

No need to go on. It is all theory with no proof. I believe there is ample proof that the 70th week of Daniel is FUTURE. When it comes, perhaps, just maybe, you will recognize it. When a nuke hits and all the grass is burned up and 1/3 of trees, and when 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, you will know the FIRST HALF of the 70th week has come. When you see the abomination, know that the first half is over.

Its definitely reason why you couldn't see that...spiritual perhaps.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, the Gospel was rejected by the Jews, so it was preached to the lost sheep of Israel, who remain today scattered among the nations, and who accepted the message, becoming Christians. Matthew 21:43...yielding the proper fruit, as we see from the missionary activity of Christians, so believers can now can be grafted into Israel...... from every nation and language.

Your determination to maintain a separation between true Israelites and the Church, is seriously wrong and violates much scripture.

The current State of Israel does have Iron Dome, it does have the best quality military force in the world, they do have nuke weapons..... in no way does that match the people in all of the holy Land at the time of the G/M attack.

I am only teaching the TRUTH of scripture. Your preconceptions cause you to be blind to the truth. I am not creating any separation: they ARE separated from the church, for most of them do not believe that Jesus was their Messiah! That is TRUTH. Another truth: Jesus will come to DEFEND Israel before they turn to Him.
That too is the TRUTH of scripture. Those Jews who have become a part of the body of Christ are also a part of the church. I am not speaking of them. I am speaking of those living in ISRAEL that have not yet learned that JESUS is their Messiah.

 

[BABerean2]

I am only teaching the TRUTH of scripture. Your preconceptions cause you to be blind to the truth. I am not creating any separation: they ARE separated from the church, for most of them do not believe that Jesus was their Messiah! That is TRUTH. Another truth: Jesus will come to DEFEND Israel before they turn to Him.
That too is the TRUTH of scripture. Those Jews who have become a part of the body of Christ are also a part of the church. I am not speaking of them. I am speaking of those living in ISRAEL that have not yet learned that JESUS is their Messiah.

Your claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace of the Church cannot be found in God's Word.

Their salvation can only come by being grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, which is a symbol of the Church. This is the "Gk.-houto", manner of their salvation in Romans 11:26.

The covenant in Romans 11:27, is the New Covenant of Grace.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

.

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 6448:

But the fact remains, the Ezekiel 38 battle will come, and God will DEFEND Israel. I personally think this battle is the very same battle as Armageddon.

Actually, Revelation 19:19-21 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:7-9 and Ezekiel chapters 38-39 on the other, are 2 different sets of events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the 1st set of events, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the 2nd set of events, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

iamlamad said in post 6448:

God certainly will defend Israel.

He might not defend it 4 or 5 years from now.

For the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[iamlamad]

Your claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace of the Church cannot be found in God's Word.

Their salvation can only come by being grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, which is a symbol of the Church. This is the "Gk.-houto", manner of their salvation in Romans 11:26.

The covenant in Romans 11:27, is the New Covenant of Grace.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

.

You don't listen very well: JESUS IS THE ONLY NAME WHEREBY ANYONE CAN BE SAVED.
I thought you knew this!

Next, it is THEIR tree, not ours, for WE are the wild branches, grafted into their three. In case you forgot, Jesus said that "salvation is of the JEWS." Jesus was a Jew.

You are SO INTENT on proving someone wrong here, you just want to argue.

The difference is, you don't think this church age will end, but you are wrong. It DOES end. But that does not mean that Jesus goes back into the ground, then returns pre-cross! No, He died for the sins of all, and that truth will REMAIN FOREVER. And the Jews will be saved THROUGH HIM, for there is no other way.

Did you not notice the difference between Peter's way of salvation and Paul's gospel?

Peter: For Jews:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Phillip for the Samaritans
Acts 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ [the Messiah] unto them.

Paul: For Gentiles:
1 Cor. 15
5 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

WE are to be judged by Paul's Gospel.

Romans 2:16
“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

This scripture was written to Gentiles. The Jews were saved by just believing Jesus was their Messiah. Gentiles are saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

Now if we look at the everlasting gospel during the time of Jacob's trouble and Daniel's 70th week (a time for HEBREWS, not Gentiles: it is not "Paul's 70th week") we don't see Paul's gospel any longer: It is a gospel for all alive at that time:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

At this time the Everlasting Gospel will be to:
1. FEAR GOD
2. Give Glory to God
3. Worship Him (the Creator)

This is all that God will require at that time.

So whether one is "saved" by believing Jesus is their Messiah, or one is saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or saved by just worshiping God the creator, ALL are saved THROUGH Jesus Christ, for there IS NO OTHER NAME whereby anyone can be "saved."

NO ONE is or ever will be "saved" outside the grace of our Lord and because He by His shed blood took away the sins OF THE WORLD.
(does that not include all?)

 

[BABerean2]

You don't listen very well: JESUS IS THE ONLY NAME WHEREBY ANYONE CAN BE SAVED.
I thought you knew this!

Next, it is THEIR tree, not ours, for WE are the wild branches, grafted into their three. In case you forgot, Jesus said that "salvation is of the JEWS." Jesus was a Jew.

You are SO INTENT on proving someone wrong here, you just want to argue.

The difference is, you don't think this church age will end, but you are wrong. It DOES end. But that does not mean that Jesus goes back into the ground, then returns pre-cross! No, He died for the sins of all, and that truth will REMAIN FOREVER. And the Jews will be saved THROUGH HIM, for there is no other way.

Did you not notice the difference between Peter's way of salvation and Paul's gospel?

Peter: For Jews:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Phillip for the Samaritans
Acts 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ [the Messiah] unto them.

Paul: For Gentiles:
1 Cor. 15
5 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

WE are to be judged by Paul's Gospel.

Romans 2:16
“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

This scripture was written to Gentiles. The Jews were saved by just believing Jesus was their Messiah. Gentiles are saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

Now if we look at the everlasting gospel during the time of Jacob's trouble and Daniel's 70th week (a time for HEBREWS, not Gentiles: it is not "Paul's 70th week") we don't see Paul's gospel any longer: It is a gospel for all alive at that time:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

At this time the Everlasting Gospel will be to:
1. FEAR GOD
2. Give Glory to God
3. Worship Him (the Creator)

This is all that God will require at that time.

So whether one is "saved" by believing Jesus is their Messiah, or one is saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or saved by just worshiping God the creator, ALL are saved THROUGH Jesus Christ, for there IS NO OTHER NAME whereby anyone can be "saved."

NO ONE is or ever will be "saved" outside the grace of our Lord and because He by His shed blood took away the sins OF THE WORLD.
(does that not include all?)

Your post was on the right track until you started claiming there is more than One Gospel.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

................................................................................

I sounds a little like what we find in Scofield's notes at Rev. 14:6 in the Scofield Reference Bible below.


Revelation 14:6




gospel

Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:

I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.



II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:

(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...

"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;

"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;

of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;

of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);

of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);

of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.



III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.



angel

(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).

..............................................................................

There is only One Gospel.
The Church will be here until the time of Christ's Second Coming.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

 

[iamlamad]

Your post was on the right track until you started claiming there is more than One Gospel.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

................................................................................

I sounds a little like what we find in Scofield's notes at Rev. 14:6 in the Scofield Reference Bible below.


Revelation 14:6




gospel

Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:

I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.



II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:

(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...

"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;

"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;

of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;

of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);

of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);

of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.



III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.



angel

(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).

..............................................................................

There is only One Gospel.
The Church will be here until the time of Christ's Second Coming.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

Do you imagine that I wrote Revelation 14?

 

[Jaxxi]

Lets suppose that Jesus is the tornado who will destroy the unfaithful unto His Coming and gather his children (elect) unto Him for protection in that Day.
Here is how the message is written in the Bible.

Matthew 24;29-31
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive and remain, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Its very possible. Nothing said Jesus would return as a man

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 6455:

Did you not notice the difference between Peter's way of salvation and Paul's gospel?

Peter: For Jews:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note that Paul's gospel (which is the same as Peter's gospel) also included water baptism for salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27).

That is, in order to be saved ultimately, the New Testament makes clear that believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Believers can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

--

Some people feel that baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

iamlamad said in post 6455:

The Jews were saved by just believing Jesus was their Messiah. Gentiles are saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

Actually, both Jews and Gentiles are saved by believing the exact same gospel:

Romans 1:16 ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

And this gospel of Christ includes his suffering and dying for our sins, and his resurrection. For:

Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And note that this gospel, which is the same as Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, was explained to Peter (and to the other apostles) directly by Jesus, before the time of Peter's preaching in Acts:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

So Peter's subsequent preaching during the time of Acts would have included this gospel, just as his writings did:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 3:18 ¶For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit . . .

Just because Acts doesn't record Peter preaching this at the time of Acts doesn't mean that he didn't. For Acts isn't an exhaustive record of every word that was preached by Peter (or the other apostles) during that period of time.

 

[Bible2+]

Jaxxi said in post 6458:

Nothing said Jesus would return as a man

He will. For note that he will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his 1st coming he as a man was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen as a man in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).