Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hoghead1]

According to Calvin, Gilldouglas, the doctrine of predestination applies to absolutely that happens, no matter how great or small it is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you quoting there is the regeneration. The dead will hear Him speak to them so they then become alive. Like Lazarus who was dead, Jesus speaks to Lazarus, not every single person in earshot.
'Those who hear will live', they hear because He spoke just to them alone, not all the dead.

The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.

Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards.

 

[sdowney717]

Apparently, but we're still without a firm answer, if that's the case...and I think that there must BE a definite answer.

I gave you a few posts having to do with thoughts, our thoughts originating from ourselves. And thoughts come from the mind. God does not think for us our thoughts.
So it is the mind, produces the thoughts, and the thoughts lead to performing an action.
God intervenes at the primary level of the mind regarding us who become saved. It is how the NC works.

Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

And for those not elect, they do not have the Holy Spirit anointing within them to know the truth, so they are given over to be reprobates.

 

[GillDouglas]

I may have. However, I don't think that conclusively answers the question. I agree that all things are within God's eternal purpose, etc. but I'm not finding a hard and fast answer there that tells me that the doctrine of Predestination means, for example, that I will choose brand A over brand B when in the grocery store and will put on the red shirt instead of the blue one or that I choose not to get on flight 798 when boarding in the terminal because God made me do whatever it was.

Is that the case OR is it, as I've always thought, that being among the Elect (or not) is what Predestination is about, and all the little decisions we make along the way are not predetermined except for God having some overall plan, direction, the "whole scope," etc. (which just about any Christian acknowledges)?

Anyway, I appreciate that you replied to me. It looked like the thread was sweeping past my post again.

Well if you think about that stupid Ashton Kutcher movie, The Butterfly Effect, any little decision or choice affected the bigger picture. Everything that we do, no matter how small, is governed by the fact that we're working towards something that God has put into place.

I know this is a terrible analogy, but I like to think of this life as a story that God is the Author of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 1, God revealed himself to ALL in the things He has made, tis true. If you notice, that revelation does not accomplish any salvation.

Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.

Calvinism thinks that it's regeneration that's the initiation of God towards man that enables man to come to Christ.

 

[True Science]

"Romans 1, God revealed himself to ALL in the things He has made, tis true. If you notice, that revelation does not accomplish any salvation.

This is not though the calling that springs from Him foreknowing us which leads to our glorification, asRomans 8 teaches."

But sir, what Romans 1 presupposes in its teaching about man and divine justice refutes what you presuppose Romans 8 teaches in your verse isolation and reading your theology into the text because it is contradictory to accept both. And even Romans 8 taken in context refutes you too. Example: http://1drv.ms/1PLaWrZ

 

[Albion]

The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.

Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards.

I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand. They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).

Whether or not that's true, it makes sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to Calvin, Gilldouglas, the doctrine of predestination applies to absolutely that happens, no matter how great or small it is.

Please address and answer my questions in post #3339. Thanks.

 

[True Science]

Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.

Calvinism thinks that it's regeneration that's the initiation of God towards man that enables man to come to Christ.

It also clearly implies people have the ability to know who God is and what he requires of them and to perform it from empirical evidence in his creation coupled with reason. Calvinists have no case against this text at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand.

No, He hasn't. That's just Calvinist opinion. There are no verses to support that claim.

They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).

Show me the verses.

Whether or not that's true, it makes sense.

No id doesn't. And the Bible doesn't support the claim.

 

[True Science]

Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.

Calvinism thinks that it's regeneration that's the initiation of God towards man that enables man to come to Christ.

It also clearly implies people have the ability to know who God is and what he requires of them and to perform it from empirical evidence in his creation coupled with reason. Calvinists have no case against this text at all.

 

[Albion]

Well if you think about that stupid Ashton Kutcher movie, The Butterfly Effect, any little decision or choice affected the bigger picture. Everything that we do, no matter how small, is governed by the fact that we're working towards something that God has put into place.
I know this is a terrible analogy, but I like to think of this life as a story that God is the Author of.

It is for me, because I didn't see that movie. But what I'm getting is that everything is consequential and orderly--and set in motion from all eternity--but that's not quite the same as saying that every last decision and act is predetermined and we have no actual choice in the matter. Or is it? No doubt I'm missing something.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Actually, the term "Protestant" probably first got started in 1529, when Luther's followers issued a letter of protest against the Diet of Spyer, which reinforced the ban on Luther's teachings.
You seemed puzzled about my background, so let me explain a bit where I am from. I am PCUSA. I have an earned doctorate in theology from the conjoint program between a major university and a solid PCUSA seminary. I am somewhat of a Calvin scholar, as I translated and published two volumes of his un- translated sermons on Micah and Jeremiah. However, my AOS is process theology. Maybe that is what is puzzling you. Process is a major movement in contemporary Christian theology, Protestant and otherwise. In fact, The Center for Process Studies is at the Claremont School of Theology, which is a prestigious Methodist seminary. Because process is a very academic field, many laity are not too familiar with it. I would identify myself as a very liberal Christian. I believe in a healthy skepticism about traditions and dogmas, creativity, the authority of personal experience over doctrine, and the validity of other religions. Of course, that is more to it than that. I don't know how far you want me to go into this, but it is important to recognize that process provides a radically different model of God than that presented by classical theism or the classical Christian picture of God as he is in his own nature. I have been working from that. if you want, I can spell this out in more detail. Let me know. Also, if you don't min my asking, just what part of the country do you live in? Either you like to stay up until the wee hours of the morning or live l way in the West. like me. I'm a sourdough myself.

I was a teaching elder in the PCUSA for many years. I left them because of the stress involved with correcting liberals such as yourself.

For me - as a former conservative PCUSA elder - the key in your posts that you were one of my former adversaries was your use of the term "he or she" when referring to God. The old memories from my PCUSA days came flooding back with that.

Boy am I glad I left off arguing with that brood when I did. My instincts told me that it was only going to get worse over time. Your admission to being an adherent to "process theology" doesn't surprise me at all. That's exactly the kind of liberal thinking that I knew was in store for the PCUSA when I left them.

It's nice to see that my instincts were right anyway. Your teaching about universal ism shows me that the chickens have come home to roost in many quarters of that denomination.

The Bible warns us that not many of us should teach because of the more strict judgment that awaits us at the Judgment Seat.

God will judge you rather harshly for the garbage you are putting out - when you end up meeting "him or her" face to face.

My, my - did I ever jump the PCUSA ship in the nick of time.

 

[Albion]

No, He hasn't. That's just Calvinist opinion.

Calvinist opinion is what I'm trying to determine.

 

[Hoghead1]

I did not say, Freegrace2, that the Bible teaches nonsensical concepts. Please do not put words into my mouth. I also did not say the Bible states that anyone rejects their salvation. I see no evidence of that in Scripture. And so when it comes to nonsense, I am wondering if perhaps you might not have some nonsensical ides about the Bible. I view the Book of Revelation as a symbolic account of the Roman Empire and a hope that it will collapse soon.
The Lake of Fire is interesting because fire can have a very positive meaning in Christendom. The Christian mystics, for example, often referred to God as fire and to us as iron in the fire. Throwing Death and Hades into the fire could very well signify the end of both and therefore a major purification.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No one can even hear unless they already His. John 6 comes after John 5. . .

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:63-65 ESV)

Well your verses just prove my point. That one comes to faith by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.

It is the Word of God and the good news of the gospel that brings man to faith. Faith comes by hearing. The middle verses are talking about belief and faith..

God draws us unto Himelf with the Word of God and the gospel that we share with others.

 

[True Science]

I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand. They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).

Whether or not that's true, it makes sense.

No it doesn't because as we have seen from Romans 1 God's Word presupposes that man must be able to know who he is and what he requires and to be able to perform it for God to be able to justly condemn him as guilty and punish him accordingly. Your position is diametrically opposed to this because it says God controls who believes and who does not and no one has any real choice outside of this to believe and yet God can still condemn the unbelievers to Hell. This is contrary to Romans 1, sir. What Paul says in Romans 1 is exactly what we would find of a man who also makes this anti-Calvinist statement:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[GillDouglas]

It is for me, because I didn't see that movie. But what I'm getting is that everything is consequential and orderly--and set in motion from all eternity--but that's not quite the same as saying that every last decision and act is predetermined and we have no actual choice in the matter. Or is it? No doubt I'm missing something.

It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.

 

[Albion]

No it doesn't because as we have seen from Romans 1 God's Word presupposes that man must be able to know who he is and what he requires and to be able to perform it for God to be able to justly condemn him as guilty and punish him accordingly. Your position is diametrically opposed to this because it says God controls who believes and who does not and no one has any real choice outside of this to believe and yet God can still condemn the unbelievers to Hell.

I believe that's a mistake. In the absence of God's intervention, we are all responsible for our sins and so are spiritually dead. We'll be judged on that basis. It's not as though the natural man is in neutral territory and so God would have no basis on which to condemn anyone.

 

[Hoghead1]

Look, Marvin, one of the rules in theological discussion is that we do not knock the spirituality of those with whom we disagree. That means, most especially, we do not came back at someone and say you area lost souls or doomed because you do not agree with my belief system. Check the rules for this forum. That is precisely what you are doing and it is totally out of line here. Therefore, if you want me to take you seriously and feel you have something to contribute, you are going to have to abide by the rules here.