Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hoghead1]

Actually, the term "Protestant" probably first got started in 1529, when Luther's followers issued a letter of protest against the Diet of Spyer, which reinforced the ban on Luther's teachings.
You seemed puzzled about my background, so let me explain a bit where I am from. I am PCUSA. I have an earned doctorate in theology from the conjoint program between a major university and a solid PCUSA seminary. I am somewhat of a Calvin scholar, as I translated and published two volumes of his un- translated sermons on Micah and Jeremiah. However, my AOS is process theology. Maybe that is what is puzzling you. Process is a major movement in contemporary Christian theology, Protestant and otherwise. In fact, The Center for Process Studies is at the Claremont School of Theology, which is a prestigious Methodist seminary. Because process is a very academic field, many laity are not too familiar with it. I would identify myself as a very liberal Christian. I believe in a healthy skepticism about traditions and dogmas, creativity, the authority of personal experience over doctrine, and the validity of other religions. Of course, that is more to it than that. I don't know how far you want me to go into this, but it is important to recognize that process provides a radically different model of God than that presented by classical theism or the classical Christian picture of God as he is in his own nature. I have been working from that. if you want, I can spell this out in more detail. Let me know. Also, if you don't min my asking, just what part of the country do you live in? Either you like to stay up until the wee hours of the morning or live l way in the West. like me. I'm a sourdough myself.

 

[Hoghead1]

In our thinking anyway. However, I do think there is a monarchic dimension to God, just as there is to any leader of a democracy. You have to remember that Scripture was written by an ancient culture which was anything but democratic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So if God decrees a man to salvation, and that man rejects - will that man be saved? If so, how?

It is an assumption on your part that "free will" given to man was not a part of God's plan.

...

 

[sdowney717]

John 5 tells us Jesus does what the Father does and gives life to whom He wills.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

The dead will hear and those who hear will live. So then Christ regenerates the dead, making them alive in the Spirit.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

If you have not been made alive, regenerated, born again, born of God you will not believe, you will refuse to come to Christ since you do not have the Father's word abiding inside you, you're dead.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

So we read that the Father raises the dead and gives life to them as does also the Son. The dead know nothing, only the living, those alive in the Spirit, can know the truth about the Father and the Son and be saved.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't know of anyone who would reject salvation. I think that is a nonsensical concept. The evil of evil is that the past fades. We achieve a satisfaction, only to lose it. We are all on the quest for meaningfulness and significance, and that is very difficult in an ever-changing world. What's the point of doing anything if it is all going to go up in smoke soon enough anyway? Now, I submit that God is the guarantor of the meaningfulness of our lives. God enjoys a direct, immediate empathic reaction to all creaturely feeling. All that we think, feel, experience, all is preserved in God's eternal imagination, where it is enjoyed forever. And since you cannot sever the experiencing ego from the his or her experiences, we. too, are saved in God forever.

 

[Hoghead1]

I think that in a previous post, I explained that free will is essential, as God's goal is to maximize beauty. It's not exactly something given to us; it is inevitable that it is there, as beauty necessitates it.

 

[EmSw]

Does that mean yes or no, you read the article? And if so, do you agree or disagree? Regeneration is a theological term not in the bible, just like trinitarian, and even Bible.

What does it mean to you; what's in your heart? No, I did not read the article, I desire to hear from your heart. Many of the words Calvinist use are not in the Bible, foreordination is an adequate example.

There's a difference between predestination and foreordination. And I really wish people would refer to "free will" as autonomous or libertarian will. Calvinist are not arguing "choice". Having a choice is not free will or autonomy, where one is 1) able to rule over one's self, as god apart from God, and 2) exists as many gods and be sovereign. This extends back to the age old hiss from the garden of Eden, Genesis 3:5.

The dictionary gives the definition of foreordination as predestine. However, as I said before, Calvinists make up their own meanings.

Merriam-Webster gives these synonyms for foreordain - doom, fate, foredoom, destine, ordain, predestine, predetermine, preordain.


Do you agree with these definitions, or, do you have your own definitions?


If I choose, from my free will, to define free will as my ability to choose how to act, why should I be bound by your desires? Merriam-Webster's define free will as such. But, here again, Calvinists want to define it as they wish, as you have above.

I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by Calvinist make up their own definitions. Are you comparing, for example, the differences between Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants on the definition of Justification?

I gave you examples above.

I mean I could share my observation about non-denominational members, which seemingly reject essential ecumenical creeds, and ignore 2000 years of arguments in the church. Otherwise, they would not be regressing to the heresy of Pelagianism or even worse... back to Rome.

You could share all you want about non-denominations members all you desire, but, unless you know their hearts, you are speculating at best. What 'seems' like something to you, does not make it so.

Many on here have been accused of Pelagianism before; this is nothing new. I don't believe in original sin as Calvinists define it. Does this make me inferior to those who do believe it? And I believe individuals have the perfect freedom to choose and do either right and wrong. Will one's pride rise up and tell me I am wrong?

So if you don't mind, please enlighten me.

Light is of no use, unless one freely chooses to open up and let it enter.

 

[Albion]

Gill, sdowney, and Em...What I was asking yesterday (a hundred posts ago ) was "What is the official, Calvinist, Reformed, answer to the question?"

Does the doctrine of Predestination correctly refer only to being saved or not...or, OTOH, to every last thing that will happen?

I apologize for not having been clearer about my request, but it looks like a a personal opinion about Predestination was offered in response and then the discussion went off in the direction of debating its contents. See post 3219 if you are interested at this time.

 

[True Science]

Romans 1 presupposes that man has the ability to know who the true God and his righteous requirements of him, and that this is necessary for God to justly condemn someone for failure in this. Scripture implies man's free will and ability and the necessity of it for God to be just in condemning the wrong.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yes, I am familiar with these arguments, praise God's sovereignty and people will remind us that God does not make robots. Hope you do not mind me quoting John Frame:



God bless,
Cush

The quote from Frame is completely appropriate and spot on.

Jesus Himself could only do what the Father was doing and He positively reveled in that status.

It's an interesting fact that the majority of the church hates to admit that for themselves. It's a pity really. I think it robs the church of power that is available for ministry when they fight against truth.

It is a marvelous thing that I can be an individual making choices (even as I am doing now at this keyboard) and at the same time doing exactly what God predestined that I be doing right now (or "foreordained" depending on one's choice of words).

It's good to be a part of what He is doing. Undoubtedly He will receive glory by everything He does on earth - even the paltry things that I do..

I'm happy that He chose to use me for noble purposes. I certainly didn't deserve for it to be so - sinful lump of clay that I was when He took hold of me.

 

[True Science]

Here is a paper that shows that Calvinism is nothing but Fatalism in the end. Theistic Fatalism, but Fatalism nonetheless. They cannot escape no matter how much they try to fluff up their position. It is what it is.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/Charge_Fatalism.html

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't at all agree, Cush. Calving is quite specific that absolutely nothing happens unless God decides it and wills it to happen. God is not just sitting back passively and letting things happen. Things happen the way they do because God decided them to happen that way.

Even if that is true - it doesn't change the fact that people (elect and non-elect alike) make their own choices along the way and will be held responsible for the choices they make.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if everything is in gods will that we do that's either pleasing to God or that sinful if it's all God's will why would we need a savior to forgive us from sin if us committing sin wasn't a problem.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense and conflicts with the Bible left right up-and-down

Forgot side-ways.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus says those who sin are sin's slave
Jesus says if He makes you free of sin you shall really be truly free of sin.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

God gives people free will, and so what they do is they with that is freely sin. their are evil by nature and due to that evil nature they sin. And one of those sins is not believing in Christ.

Only way out of sin is by trusting in Christ to give you the new nature and be free from the sting of death due to sin.
Since those who do not believe in Christ will most assuredly die in their sins.
And those who do believe in Christ, their sins are forgiven them for His names sake.

And the only way to believe in Christ is if Christ makes you free of your old nature by regenerating in you a new nature favorable to God and Christ. Afterwards then you can believe in Christ since you have the Father's word abiding in you.

John 5, v38 tells us this. If you do not have the Father's word abiding in you, you will not believe in Christ when He appears on the scene of your life. God's word would be abiding in you if you had been worked on by God being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

And if your not regenerated, then Christ says, you're not willing to come to Him to live eternally.

The Bible does not teach that one is regenerated in order to come to Him. Or that one will be regenerated before they come to Him.

Regeneration and being saved occur at the same time, per Eph 2:5 and 1 Jn 5:1. No other verse says otherwise.

Re: John 5:37-40, just recall that 6:45 is still in play. "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

iow, those who have listened and learned from the Father's teaching will come to Christ. Not those who have been regenerated.

To equate listening and learning with regeneration would be in error.

 

[ToBeLoved]

John 5 tells us Jesus does what the Father does and gives life to whom He wills.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

The dead will hear and those who hear will live. So then Christ regenerates the dead, making them alive in the Spirit.

This is the KJV

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

I think you are reading the verse wrong. One of the major tenant of these verses is that the Father has given the Son all judgement over creation. That when men honor the Son they are also honoring the Father.

Then it makes sense because it is saying that the Son can give life to whom He will because He has been given that authority from the Father.

I do not believe in any way that your premise that this supports Calvinism. Jesus has told us that whomever comes to Him in faith will be saved. So Jesus has already spoken on who He will make alive in spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that. Born again is being regenerated. Those born again are those made alive in the Spirit, they then sit with Christ in heavenly places. Being regenerated comes before our faith.

Not at all what Eph 2 teaches. v.5 shows that "being made alive" occurs when one is saved. iow, they go together. Can't have one without the other. It's impossible to be born again and not be saved. Conversely, one cannot be saved and not be regenerated.

And we know from v.8 the order of faith and salvation; faith precedes salvation. We are saved THROUGH FAITH. We do NOT have faith through salvation, or being born again. No verse teaches that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I ask that you accept the choice to flap your arms like a bird and reach the heavens. Whether you are grounded due to your human nature, I won't discuss. And I surely will not attempt to compel you to try. If you reject the choice and choose to not even try, or if you choose to try, the choice is yours.

The only real issue in choice is whether one even has the ability to choose to do something.

It is ridiculous to claim that one can either choose to or refuse to do something in which they don't have the ability to do.

Such as flapping arms and reaching the heavens. iow, since man does not have the ability to fly by his own power, there is NO choice to either fly or refuse to fly.

For me to claim that I refuse to fly to the roof of my house would be ludicrous.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good share sdowney,

Regeneration occurs "when we were dead". Dead men do not cooperate with Grace.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Cush

The Jesus said otherwise.

John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

It should be clear that Jesus was speaking figuratively about being spiritually dead, not physically dead. And He says that the spiritually dead (unregenerated) will hear His voice and will live (be born again).

Calvinist theology claims one must be regenerated in order to hear the voice of Christ. They have it backward.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Bible does not teach that one is regenerated in order to come to Him. Or that one will be regenerated before they come to Him.

Regeneration and being saved occur at the same time, per Eph 2:5 and 1 Jn 5:1. No other verse says otherwise.

Re: John 5:37-40, just recall that 6:45 is still in play. "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

iow, those who have listened and learned from the Father's teaching will come to Christ. Not those who have been regenerated.

To equate listening and learning with regeneration would be in error.

Exactly.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. So we share the Bible and the gospel.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And that is why we come to Christ in faith. Because we have heard and believed. Then we are born-again (regenerated) and made righteous by Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's a difference between predestination and foreordination. And I really wish people would refer to "free will" as autonomous or libertarian will. Calvinist are not arguing "choice". Having a choice is not free will or autonomy, where one is 1) able to rule over one's self, as god apart from God, and 2) exists as many gods and be sovereign. This extends back to the age old hiss from the garden of Eden, Genesis 3:5.

Here's the problem with Calvinist thought. Free will is ONLY choice. And a free choice at that. Free will is shown whether man obeys God or rebels against Him.

Isa 1:18-20 - 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19 “If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; 20 “But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword.” Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This is free will. To either "consent and obey" or "refuse and rebel". And man is able to do either.

Calvinist ideas are in constrast to Isaiah's.