Logical Problems with Calvinism

[True Science]

It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.

Sir, it says you are a Presbyterian but this does not sound like the traditional Calvinist position.

 

[Hoghead1]

Cush, I'm not sure I am following you on free will. Are you arguing we have free will only insofar as God has predetermined us to make the choices we do?

 

[Albion]

It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots!

That's what I thought.

Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.

Very well. It would appear, then, that there is no "scripting" of each and every, little, individual, even trivial, act or thought, but that there is a general, overall, orientation that must operate if one is indeed among the Elect. It would follow, I suppose, that those who are not among the Elect are outside that guidance system for the most part.

 

[GillDouglas]

The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.

Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards.

FreeGrace2, may I ask your opinion on two things? In regards to the condition of men since the fall and original sin: What was the full affect of the fall, in regards to the relationship between men and God? Are men born into this condition of enmity with God? Do you agree that the nature of me from birth is a sinful state? Can a dead tree bare fruit? Can a bird with a broken wing fly?

After we discuss these points, maybe you can help me understand how a man can change his nature and bring himself to be spiritually alive.

 

[True Science]

"I believe that's a mistake. In the absence of God's intervention, we are all responsible for our sins and so are spiritually dead. We'll be judged on that basis. It's not as though the natural man is in neutral territory and so God would have no basis on which to condemn anyone."

It is not a mistake. Your position teaches that all this is because of God's unchangeable decree and man can not do anything except outside of this decree. And not only this but man is actually already born condemned in your position, which again God's immutable decree foreordained and which you can do nothing outside of. And so, again, for the umteenth time, man cannot be anything but spiritually dead in your position, so according to Romans 1 he is not accountable to God. How do you not see this, sir?

 

[GillDouglas]

It would follow, I suppose, that those who are not among the Elect are outside that guidance system for the most part.

We're just about on the same page, Albion. I would only disagree with this final point; no man, even the unbelieving atheist, is outside of His 'guidance system'. All things work towards His plan.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I may have. However, I don't think that conclusively answers the question. I agree that all things are within God's eternal purpose, etc. but I'm not finding a hard and fast answer there that tells me that the doctrine of Predestination means, for example, that I will choose brand A over brand B when in the grocery store and will put on the red shirt instead of the blue one or that I choose not to get on flight 798 when boarding in the terminal because God made me do whatever it was.

Is that the case OR is it, as I've always thought, that being among the Elect (or not) is what Predestination is about, and all the little decisions we make along the way are not predetermined except for God having some overall plan, direction, the "whole scope," etc. (which just about any Christian acknowledges)?

Anyway, I appreciate that you replied to me. It looked like the thread was sweeping past my post again.

For what it's worth - I'm of the group who would answer yes, right up front, to the examples you gave. Meaning by that that "yes" God did predestine what color of shirt you would choose to put on.

But I would say that "no" God did not "make" you put on the certain color of shirt. That was you who decided that. God just predestined that your decision would be part of His exact plan.

I don't believe that predestination and free will are incompatible at all.

Again - God, the first cause, works through second causes (i.e. your preference of shirt color at this particular time) to bring about what He has predestined to happen.

This so called "compatibility" of predestination and free will is very common in Calvinist circles and I believe that it is by far the most common way to express these things.

 

[Marvin Knox]

According to Calvin, Gilldouglas, the doctrine of predestination applies to absolutely that happens, no matter how great or small it is.

Me too.

 

[GillDouglas]

Sir, it says you are a Presbyterian but this does not sound like the traditional Calvinist position.

Sir, I do currently attend an Orthodox Presbyterian Church. In my five years since knowing God, I've only attended PCA and OPC. The Presbyterian church (minus PCUSA) subscribes to many of the doctrines concerning the salvation of men and God's complete and utter sovereignty. I do consider myself a full five point Calvinist.

 

[Albion]

We're just about on the same page, Albion. I would only disagree with this final point; no man, even the unbelieving atheist, is outside of His 'guidance system'. All things work towards His plan.

Yes, I believe I am in synch with that. I meant only that he's not performing at the level of the Elect.

Gill, thanks for taking the time to go through all of this.

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, I believe I am in synch with that. I meant only that he's not performing at the level of the Elect.

Gill, thanks for taking the time to go through all of this.

Definitively, my Anglican brother, God can exercise over the Elect a particular providence and work in them through His Holy Spirit so that they will first come to Christ and then persevere in His service, without destroying or impairing the free agency. None have this will and desire except those whom God has made such; and He gives this will and desire to none but His own.

Now if you'll excuse me, there is two feet of snow I need to bury my kids in.

 

[True Science]

"In regards to the condition of men since the fall and original sin: What was the full affect of the fall, in regards to the relationship between men and God? Are men born into this condition of enmity with God?"

>>> In a collectivist tribal way with Adam as our federal head so that we inherit his legacy he has left us in this world, yes. But on the individual level of a person cannot come to God and follow him and be accepted and is born a child of Hell, no.

"Do you agree that the nature of me from birth is a sinful state?"

>>> Yes, but not in such a way that he is not able to overcome it and even reverse it through the habit of following the Lord and having God help him.

"Can a dead tree bare fruit? Can a bird with a broken wing fly?"

>>> Does this imply that God requires that of man which he is unable to perform and yet holds him accountable? Because if so, again, Romans 1 teaches against this. These texts also implies the same thing:

Deu_10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Mic_6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

But Romans 1 is so devastating because it is by Paul and also because it is so laid out and covers everything so you can't get out of it.

"After we discuss these points, maybe you can help me understand how a man can change his nature and bring himself to be spiritually alive."

>>> Sir, man still retains his good nature he was created with:

Deu_32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Ecc_7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Man's nature has just been marred by the fall but not beyond recognition so that he is totally depraved and unable to obey God.

By turning to God and submitting to his commandments and trusting in his grace to take away our former disobedience we can live in his sight. And man doesn't do it by himself. It is synergistic, "workers together with God." (2Cor. 6:1, sunergeo)

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.

I think what you miss here is that even after we are saved, we still choose how we conduct our relationship
with Him.

Many different things can effect this depending on each person. We still do all the choosing. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of those who are listening. He does not force anyone to do anything. Some become very good at tuning out that voice. Others think that they get to heaven by works, some think by not sinning, some by attending church, ect

If a person chooses more of a personal relationship with God often prayer is very important and worship and God's Word.

We control most facets of the relationship with God. The more we seek, the more we find as the verses say.

 

[Hoghead1]

I can't see, Gilldouglas, how you view is really any different from predestination, from the notion that God predetermined all your decisions. If we have genuine freedom, then we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide our decisions for us. Also, you can minus out the PCUSA if you want, but you should point it is by far the largest Presbyterian denomination. I can see that if you are a TULIP, you might be unhappy in the PCUSA. However, it is also the case that the PCUSA is the church where you can agree to disagree. I find people have all sorts of differing views in the PCUSA. That's what I like about it.

 

[Albion]

I can't see, Gilldouglas, how you view is really any different from predestination, from the notion that God predetermined all your decisions. If we have genuine freedom, then we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide our decisions for us. Also, you can minus out the PCUSA if you want, but you should point it is by far the largest Presbyterian denomination. I can see that if you are a TULIP, you might be unhappy in the PCUSA. However, it is also the case that the PCUSA is the church where you can agree to disagree. I find people have all sorts of differing views in the PCUSA. That's what I like about it.

There really isn't much about the PC(USA) that remains Calvinist anymore, though, and it's Calvinism that we were addressing here.

 

[Hoghead1]

That is a very good point, True Science. According to Calvin God predestined the elect and the reprobate. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. Hence, they cannot be responsible for their actions, which were also all predetermined by God. I agree this kind of predeterminism is completely unbiblical. Calvin pushed this far enough to claim that those who do evil do so because God predestined them to do so. Hence, they really can't be responsible either. Another problem here is that this led Calvinists to disregard the full reality of evil, by assuming evil is in mere appearance only, that it is all for the good. If evil befalls you, that is but a justified punishment. Calvin says that murderers, larcenists and other evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord executes his strict judgments upon us.

 

[GillDouglas]

I think what you miss here is that even after we are saved, we still choose how we conduct our relationship
with Him.

Many different things can effect this depending on each person. We still do all the choosing. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of those who are listening. He does not force anyone to do anything. Some become very good at tuning out that voice. Others think that they get to heaven by works, some think by not sinning, some by attending church, ect

If a person chooses more of a personal relationship with God often prayer is very important and worship and God's Word.

We control most facets of the relationship with God. The more we seek, the more we find as the verses say.

Who is it that initiates, orchestrates and eternally maintains that relationship?

 

[Hoghead1]

I suppose, then, you are wholly outside the guidance system, Albion. Remember, in Calvinism, the elect are a very tiny minority of human beings. Calvin says there are so few elect that they probably never contact one another in their lifetime. Hence, chances are you, I, and the rest of us here are all hell bound, according to Calvin. That's one of the reasons I reject Calvin. It's such a hopeless faith.

 

[GillDouglas]

Also, you can minus out the PCUSA if you want, but you should point it is by far the largest Presbyterian denomination. I can see that if you are a TULIP, you might be unhappy in the PCUSA. However, it is also the case that the PCUSA is the church where you can agree to disagree. I find people have all sorts of differing views in the PCUSA. That's what I like about it.

Being the largest Presbyterian denomination doesn't make it THE whole (or the right one), in fact we are so fundamentally different that I don't consider us to be in the same denomination. Being the largest might be an indicator that being a mainstream liberal church appeals to the masses, but that is ok because God can use that. Regardless of the denomination, wherever God has placed you, you are there for HIS purpose not your own.

 

[GillDouglas]

Look, Marvin, one of the rules in theological discussion is that we do not knock the spirituality of those with whom we disagree. That means, most especially, we do not came back at someone and say you area lost souls or doomed because you do not agree with my belief system. Check the rules for this forum. That is precisely what you are doing and it is totally out of line here. Therefore, if you want me to take you seriously and feel you have something to contribute, you are going to have to abide by the rules here.

I believe you may have misunderstood @Marvin Knox. No one (on our side of this discussion) would be so bold to say that we are saved because of our theology, and we certainly wouldn't condemn anyone who didn't have the same understanding. Our hope is only to get others to understand why we view salvation the way we do.