Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

As you've been told many times - you understanding of Calvinist doctrine is deficient.

Total depravity simply means that there is not a facet of fallen man's being that is not effected in some way by sin.

Ask - rather than - state what Calvinism teaches. You are much more likely to not misrepresent them with your errors concerning what their doctrines are.

Any chance you'll repent of your constant misrepresentation of what your brothers and sisters teach?

It's important that you do. You will answer for it you know?

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."
James 3:1

I am not mirepresenting anything. You can check out a former critique on Total Inability from a former Calvinist here:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Inability

Which lines up with what I have said so far. So no. I am not misrepresenting the beliefs of Calvinists. For your belief on Calvinism is not the only one.


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[FreeGrace2]

For you maybe. With my doctrine there's no luck to it - just the truth and nothing but the truth..

No, I said "some people". Not me. No such thing as luck. But a lot of people sure wish there was.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
" Paul clearly indicated it in Romans 7, a chapter that it seems you're totally unwilling to face."

Then please show HOW. Just making such a statement doesn't prove anything. Prove your claim.

Please take note that the word "law" in Romans 7 is not the same reference of the word "law" in Romans 8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made Paul free from what? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? No. The Law of sin and death (Which is the Law of Moses). This is the context of the word "law" in Romans 7. Hence, why he was speaking from his perspective as a Law abiding Jew in Romans 7 before he became a Christian.

You really aren't following what others are saying, are you? I NEVER said "always have sin in our life". My point has been clear and consistent: when the believer spiritually grows in grace, they will sin less. That's not "sin always in our life".

Yes, you are saying that a believer will always have sin over the rest of their life because you deny that a believer can stop sinning in this life (Which is Sinless Perfectionism). Sinning less does not equate with one "not sinning the rest of one's life" unless they actually stop sinning.

Unbelievers are separated from God spiritually. Believers are separated from God in fellowship.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

Thos who have actually read the Bible and understand it know better.

Insults are not becoming of the saints.

Hebrews says that Christ's sacrifice was for sin once for all.

Heb 7:27 - who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered upHimself.

But if you were to keep reading, it says in Hebrews 10:26, if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you were to keep reading it then says punishment for wrong doing is going to have the same consequences in the New as it does in the Old.

Rom 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

The key point is that the person must live unto God. For in Romans 6, Paul forbids a believer to continue in sin so that grace may abound. Paul says yield yourselves to whom you want to obey. Paul essentially says you can either obey sin that leads unto death (Which is of the devil's kingdom) or you can obey righteousness which leads unto eternal life.

Heb 10:10 - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

See Hebrews 10:26 and Hebrews 10:38.

1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

The key word is we are made alive by the spirit. How does that work? Lets go back to Romans. Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh (sin) but who WALK after the Spirit.

Sorry I couldn't come up with some parable for you, but the Scripture is clear enough for me and many others.

Nobody who believes in OSAS will ever be able to show the goodness of OSAS by way of a parable. That is the only reason why you are unable to do it, my friend.

Correct. Because Christ already died for sins once for all. He is the ultimate and final sacrifice. The verse is a repeat of v.18 - Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

1 John 2:1 talks about if we sin we have an advocate that we can go to. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is a condition. Confess sin = forgiveness of sin. Which is in context to forsaking sin (See 1 John 1:7) and also see Proverbs 28:13.

Consider this: if Christ didn't die for all sins, past, present and future, then we have to ultimately save ourselves since He didn't complete the work of providing salvation.

No. It does not mean that all. Christ (God) works in the believer. For without Him we can do nothing.

What is the theme of ch 1? Fellowship, not relationship. The chapter is to believers, who are already saved.

1 John 2:4 is not talking exclusively about fellowship (with no salvation). It says if someone says they know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire and a person cannot be saved without the Truth (Who is Jesus Christ who is the only way unto the Father). 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother we are likened to being like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

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[FreeGrace2]

So you can't stop sinning for like 5 minutes?

Silly question. One does not keep a stopwatch nearby to measure such things.

Is it arrogance to claim that one cannot stop sinning for that amount of time?

As long as one is filled with the Spirit and walking with the Spirit, they AREN'T sinning.

As long as one is grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit, one IS sinning.

Do you know the difference?

But I suppose Jesus assuming that the woman caught in the act of adultery and the man he healed would be arrogant if they actually heeded his words so as to: "sin no more"? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

I've already pointed out that the passage was NOT in the original.

Good passage. So yes, sin separates a person from God. I am glad we can agree on Conditional Salvation in the Scriptures.

Not in a million years would I ever disagree with Scripture on eternal security.

1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. To be forgiven of sin means you are being saved.

Spriitual growth results in spiritual discernment. You've shown how little discernment you have for Scripture. The forgiveness in 1 Jn 1 is about fellowship, not relationship.

The moment somebody sins as a part of their conscious decision that they will forever sin the rest of their life on occasion is making an allowance for letting sin reign in their mortal body.

This is just so naive. No one makes a conscious decision that they will "forever sin the rest of their life on occasion". Why do you keep posting such nonsense?

I sure wish you'd read Rom 7 and understand what Paul's struggle was about. But it takes discernment.

For God cannot agree with a believer's future decision to do evil.

Of course He doesn't. And that does not in any way support your theory.

Yes, and no. It depends on their attitude towards sin. A believer who says they will never stop sinning in this life is making excuses for sin even if they sin less and less over their life.

What you fail to grasp is that no one makes such a conscious decision that they will never stop sinning in this life. The spiritually mature believer KNOWS that they won't achieve sinless perfection in this life.

btw, you keep ignoring my question about your own salvation. Since you brought it up by your "sin and STILL be saved doctrine" phrase. From your own post #2344 where you admitted that you hadn't achieved the state of sinless perfection, that would mean that you're not saved yourself. Well? How about it? Are you saved, or are you unsaved now?

I can say the same for you if you do not understand Conditional Salvation or if you do not understand that a believer is capable of ceasing from sin by God's power.

Once again, you have failed to discern Scripture. Of course a believer is capable of ceasing from sin by God's power. But even Paul himself, the best theologian in history, admitted that he continued to struggle with his own sin nature.

The whole issue boils down to this: whether the believer is filled/walking with the Spirit, or grieving/quenching the Spirit. It's an on-going struggle, which you've indicated that you know nothing about.

Actually, Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would be Jesus having the victory over sin in a believer's life.

Let me put it this way: He won the war. We still ahve battles to fight. In His power.

No. Occasional sin from a conscious decision that one will always sin the rest of their life (even if they believe they will sin less and less) is still making an excuse for sin.

Please STOP making this ridiculous straw men. No one has made "a conscious decision" to sin the rest of their life.

Even you you've made a conscious decision to NOT SIN the rest of your life, by your own post you've admitted that you ain't there yet.

So, why do you preach what you yourself haven't even accomplished yet?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, parables are a part of Scripture. Our Lord used them and our Lord is our example. This means we can use parables or analogies, too.

No it doesn't. No one believes you. Your claims are ludicrous. Jesus alone used them. NONE of the writers of Scripture did. Doesn't that give you a hint? It should have.

Jesus never commanded the Canaanite woman to speak in a parable or analogy back towards him but she did so anyways. In fact, as a result she was commended for her great faith by doing so and her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour.

Metaphor: (Definition):
": a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor

I'm finished dealing with your obsession with parables. I've proven that they were for those who weren't listening.

Again, I do not believe it is irrelevant because you are denying the use of a believer making a parable or a metaphor so as to illustrate spiritual truth.

What you believe about it is only your opinion about it. Scripture refutes you.

But then again, you just recently agreed with another's posters parable (Which to me is confusing because you were so dead set on ignoring the use of parables before).

Oh yeah? What post? I challenge you to cite the post #.

My defense against your wrong interpretation of Scripture can be backed up by looking at cross references, the context, and by showing parables or analogies.

No they can't. Your opinion is only that.

I disagree. I believe God has revealed the truth to me in regards to this matter because because:

I strongly disagree because Scripture refutes your ideas competely.

[QUTOE]1. Scripture backs me up in many places.[/QUOTE]
Never.

2. We know false prophets if they bring forth bad fruit or if their belief is not consistent with God's goodness or morality.

How doe this support your theories?

3. Analogies, parables, ect. confirm the truth of it.

Where in the world did you get that notion? Jesus never taught that.

Yes, they do, dear sir. The Bible has many warnings given to the believer. These warnings would be meaningless if there was ultimately no real consequence for a believer's actions in this life.

The consequences are discipline, which can be severe, and loss of rewards in eternity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
" Paul clearly indicated it in Romans 7, a chapter that it seems you're totally unwilling to face."

Then please show HOW. Just making such a statement doesn't prove anything. Prove your claim.

Please take note that the word "law" in Romans 7 is not the same reference of the word "law" in Romans 8:2.

Why bring up Rom 8:2 when that wasn't even part of what I said. It is Romans 7 that you need to read and understand. And I wasn't even talking about the Law or the law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made Paul free from what? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? No. The Law of sin and death (Which is the Law of Moses). This is the context of the word "law" in Romans 7. Hence, why he was speaking from his perspective as a Law abiding Jew in Romans 7 before he became a Christian.

I'm getting tired of your lazy approach to the posts of others. I've already explained that ch 7 was written in the present tense. If you know anything about Greek tenses, you'd know that Paul was writing about current events. Not past events.

Yes, you are saying that a believer will always have sin over the rest of their life because you deny that a believer can stop sinning in this life (Which is Sinless Perfectionism).

The reason we have 1 Jn 1:9 is BECAUSE we continue to have a sin problem.

Sinning less does not equate with one "not sinning the rest of one's life" unless they actually stop sinning.

btw, since you yourself have admitted that you're still 'not there' regarding sinless perfection, are you now saved, or unsaved? Please answer.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

1 John 1 is all about fellowship.

Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

Actually, none of these, nor any other verses, says what you claim.

Insults are not becoming of the saints.

I was making a statement of fact. If one is convicted by facts, then so be it.

The key word is we are made alive by the spirit. How does that work? Lets go back to Romans. Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh (sin) but who WALK after the Spirit.

Here is the verse in the NASB: Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Did you note the difference from what you posted? What translation were you using? In the earliest manuscripts, there is nothing after "Christ Jesus". Therefore, it was added later by some scribe. And NOT part of the original autograph.

1 John 2:1 talks about if we sin we have an advocate that we can go to.

Because He already died for ALL sin ALREADY.

 

[Marvin Knox]

First, of all Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). So love is expressed in our obedience to our Lord.....

That is why the good servant was obedient - because he loved his Lord for first loving him. Perhaps you missed that.

Second, Jesus also said this about unprofitable and lazy servant..........................

There are no unprofitable and lazy servants in my parable. I'm sure there were some on the estate just as there are in the so called church. They didn't get to stay on the estate any longer. But that's another parable isn't it?

Did you really think that I was unfamiliar with all those verses that you cut and pasted?

Three, your parable minimizes sin and speaks nothing of how sin should be punished fairly and justly.....

The only area of sin that my parable talks about has to do with the attitude of the second servant - he's you by the way.

His "punishment" was what happened to him after the Lord reviewed his attitude at what would be the "Judgment Seat of the Master." He lost out on a lot of things that could have been his had he repented of his attitude on his own sometime before his Master confronted him.

It was only the grace of the Master that allowed that servant to stay on the estate at all. If it had been your parable the Master would, no doubt, not have been as gracious as He was in mine.

In the real world, kings or leaders do not love their servants unconditionally. If a servant betrays their king by sinning against him, he will have to throw himself at the mercy of the king and seek restitution so as to make things right. For there is no king or leader today who rewards evil done against him and his kingdom. That doesn't make any sense.

In other words, your parable or analogy does not fit the real world...........

My parable was about the church - not the kingdoms of this world.

If it doesn't fit the "real world" you live in perhaps you need to repent and start operating in God's Kingdom.

And therefore is nothing like the parables Jesus Christ had provided for us. ....

Oh - it was a lot like His. That's why you cut and pasted all of those quotes from His parables now wasn't it? Duhh!

First, Jesus parables were meant to hide the truth to only unbelievers and NOT believers. Believers were supposed to know what the parables actually meant................ So believers can KNOW the truth of what the parables were actually saying.

Bingo!

Maybe my parable was inspired by the Spirit of the Lord - and that's why you don't get it.

Maybe you need to repent - and trust in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope for salvation. Then maybe He will interpret such things for you.

You believe the alcoholic (i.e. the believer) has to die in order to overcome his alcoholic addiction (i.e. a believer's addiction to sin). For you do not believe a believer will overcome sin in this life.

You don't really read my posts to you do you? (Oh - that's right - you can't bear to finish them.)

I have said very clearly that my problem with you isn't about whether Christian men and women can totally overcome conscious sin in their lifetime.

My problem with you is that you link their salvation to whether they can do so. Pay attention after this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Silly question. One does not keep a stopwatch nearby to measure such things.

Your missing the point. If a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes, then they can stop for a day, or a week, or a month, etc.
For just as alcoholics today can overcome the sin of drunkeness and become sober. The believer today can also overcome sin.

As long as one is filled with the Spirit and walking with the Spirit, they AREN'T sinning.

But if they do walk after the flesh, the end result is death. This is spiritual death because most all people will physically die in this life.

As long as one is grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit, one IS sinning.

God will convict a person to repent and overcome sin. As for quenching the Spirit: Well, what happens to a fire that is quenched by water?

I've already pointed out that the passage was NOT in the original.

Oh, so now our Bibles are lying to us in our own language? I am sorry. God is not going to hold me accountable in learning some other language so as to understand His Word. It doesn't work like that. God clearly was able to make it so that everyone could understand each other in their own tongue just fine in Acts 2.

Not in a million years would I ever disagree with Scripture on eternal security.

And thus why you cannot see it, my friend.

This is just so naive. No one makes a conscious decision that they will "forever sin the rest of their life on occasion". Why do you keep posting such nonsense?

What is the alternative then? To stop sinning... yes? If you believe that, then you believe in Sinless Perfectionism then.

I sure wish you'd read Rom 7 and understand what Paul's struggle was about. But it takes discernment.

The word "law" appears twice in Romans 8:2. Are you asserting that both words are referring to the same "law"?

What you fail to grasp is that no one makes such a conscious decision that they will never stop sinning in this life. The spiritually mature believer KNOWS that they won't achieve sinless perfection in this life.

The Bible says be ye angry and sin not and give not place to the devil. So is one giving place to the devil if they do not stop sinning in this life? Yes, of course. Then why even say this to a person if they are always just going to be in sin then (the rest of their life)?

btw, you keep ignoring my question about your own salvation. Since you brought it up by your "sin and STILL be saved doctrine" phrase. From your own post #2344 where you admitted that you hadn't achieved the state of sinless perfection, that would mean that you're not saved yourself. Well? How about it? Are you saved, or are you unsaved now?

My life does does not change what is written in God's Word. Yes, I do believe I am saved. How so? Well, a believer who is in the Sanctification process is not living in sin day in and day out and if they do sin, they confess sin and they will in time overcome their sin with God's help. They have the hope that God will give them the victory in their life. They are saved by God's grace because they are not making excuses for sin by saying they will sin at some point in the future. They have the hope that God will give them the victory perhaps even that very day. The believe. They have faith. They trust God will make them holy and help them to win the good fight. For our God is not a God of defeat who lets us indulge in our sins. God cannot condone a believer's conscious choice to sin again at some point in the future. That would make God unrighteous if He were to do that. The believer who is trusting in God to help them to overcome sin is saved by faith in His grace and he trusts that Christ will one day give them victory. They have salvation now by His grace because they are standing up for what is good and right and preaching for others to overcome and do what is good and right.

In other words, it would be like an alcoholic who enters himself into a program so as to overcome his sin of drunkeness. He believes in the program and fights to overcome it so as to one day be sober. But if this man stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober it is not the same thing as the alcoholic who says he will forever be a slave to his sin of drunkeness in this life. That is what OSAS is saying.

Once again, you have failed to discern Scripture. Of course a believer is capable of ceasing from sin by God's power. But even Paul himself, the best theologian in history, admitted that he continued to struggle with his own sin nature.

So now you believe in Sinless Perfectionism? Why would God not want to help a believer to overcome sin in this life? Also, Romans 7 is not talking about Paul's struggle with sin as a believer but this was said from his perspective as an unbeliever. Again, examine the words "law" that appears twice in Romans 8:2. The first word "law" is in reference to walking in the Spirit under the New Covenant and the the second reference of the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses (Which is the context of Romans 7).

The whole issue boils down to this: whether the believer is filled/walking with the Spirit, or grieving/quenching the Spirit. It's an on-going struggle, which you've indicated that you know nothing about.

I do know God and I do walk with Him. But I have never quenched the Spirit. That would be bad news for any believer.

Let me put it this way: He won the war. We still ahve battles to fight. In His power.

If this was the case, then everyone would be saved. For do you not know that even believing on Jesus is a Commandment? (1 John 3:23).

Even you you've made a conscious decision to NOT SIN the rest of your life, by your own post you've admitted that you ain't there yet.

So, why do you preach what you yourself haven't even accomplished yet?

God's Word talks about how many believers are in the Sanctification process. Sinless Perfectionism is also the goal for every believer in this life. I can preach about it just as I can preach about how Noah built an Ark. My failing to build an Ark does not mean I cannot talk about the building of the Ark myself. But if you must know, I believe that the hope of Sinless Perfectionism is upon me even now. I have this hope that He could help me to conquer all sin once and for all today or tomorrow. So I am not living in any kind of attitude of defeat or anything. God's grace is there for me so as not to live in sin but to overcome it. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus is here to give us victory in this life over sin and not to remain enslaved to sin. What kind of God would allow His children to remain in defeat over sin?



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[Bible Highlighter]

That is why the good servant was obedient - because he loved his Lord for first loving him. Perhaps you missed that.

There are no unprofitable and lazy servants in my parable. I'm sure there were some on the estate just as there are in the so called church. They didn't get to stay on the estate any longer. But that's another parable isn't it?

Did you really think that I was unfamiliar with all those verses that you cut and pasted?

The only area of sin that my parable talks about has to do with the attitude of the second servant - he's you by the way.

His "punishment" was what happened to him after the Lord reviewed his attitude at what would be the "Judgment Seat of the Master." He lost out on a lot of things that could have been his had he repented of his attitude on his own sometime before his master confronted him.

It was only the grace of the Master that allowed that servant to stay on the estate at all. If it had been your parable the Master would, no doubt, not have been as gracious as He was in mine.

My parable was about the church - not the kingdoms of this world.

If it doesn't fit the "real world" you live in perhaps you need to repent and start operating in God's Kingdom.

Oh - it was a lot like His. That's why you cut and pasted all of those quotes from His parables now wasn't it? Duhh!

Bingo!

Maybe my parable was inspired by the Spirit of the Lord - and that's why you don't get it.

Maybe you need to repent - and trust in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope for salvation. Then maybe He will interpret such things for you.


You don't really read my posts to you do you. (Oh - that's right - you can't bear to finish them.)

I have said very clearly that my problem with you isn't about whether Christian men and can totally overcome conscious sin in their lifetime.

My problem with you is that you link their salvation to whether they can do so. Pay attention after this.

Well, I have to go and do other things today. So I do not have time to keep going back and forth with you.

But in the mean time, may God's love shine upon you and I pray that you will consider the verses by way of prayer so as to see where I am coming from.

...

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well, I have to go and do other things today. So I do not have time to keep going back and forth with you.

But in the mean time, may God's love shine upon you and I pray that you will consider the verses by way of prayer so as to see where I am coming from. ...

Yes, I would like a good long break myself.

Trouble is - I keep coming back in here because the idea of you preaching false doctrine to my brothers and sisters without my rebuking you is just too hard for me to bear.

The idea that you list your ministry in your profile as "anti-OSAS evangelist" is truly amazing to me.

You say that you've been spewing out this trash for several years now?

Judging by the time stamp on many of your posts - you stay up nights thinking of things to say that might undermine the trust of believers that Jesus was telling the truth when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life."

You're a real piece of work.

 

[tulipbee]

Interesting word choice (i.e. "babble"). Why do you think one of the reasons God had chosen to confound the language of men at the tower of Babel? Well, one of the reasons was because they sinned by not obeying God's Command to spread out over the Earth. In other words, sin always comes with major consequences.


...

What subject are you on now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I would like a good long break myself.

Your situation is not my situation. You are wanting to take a break because you are getting frustrated here. I am not frustrated but I am at peace with God and have only love and affection towards those here (Even when they falsely slander me or insult me).

Trouble is - I keep coming back in here because the idea of you preaching false doctrine to my brothers and sisters without my rebuking you is just too hard for me to bear.

A person who believes in a sin and still be saved doctrine cannot rebuke anyone because they are making an allowance for sin (of which God cannot condone because He is righteous and Holy).

The idea that you list your ministry in your profile as "anti-OSAS evangelist" is truly amazing to me.

People were amazed by what Jesus said and did.

You say that you've been spewing out this trash for several years now.

Many people did not like Jesus's words and they insulted him, too.

Judging by the time stamp on many of your posts - you stay up nights thinking of things to say that might undermine the trust of believers that Jesus was telling the truth when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life."

You're a real piece of work.

Your condescending attitude aside, true believers do not make excuses for sinning at some point in the future as if it was okay with God. Also, believing in Jesus for eternal life would be not only believing in Him as a person but it would also be believing everything that He said, too. For his words are spirit and they are life. Paul also essentially said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Teaching a sin and still be saved type belief is clearly a doctrine of UN-Godliness.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

one of the problems is that you feel that God needs to deal with sin fair and justly.

But God did just that by putting the sins of the world on His Son.

I am so surprised that you would have written that.

I'm not particularly surprised at the things Jason says.

He obviously has no proper conception of the work of our Lord at Calvary.

It's a crying shame.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What subject are you on now?

I am talking against one of the points of Calvinism which allows for a believer to think they can sin and still be saved. Granted, not all people who believe in Calvinism may agree with that assessment, but then again, not all Calvinists believe the same thing, though.


...

 

[nobdysfool]

I have used Scripture and talked in a respectful way in my post. If you disagree, then feel free to explain what those verses are really saying instead of insulting me. Fo insulting me in no way helps to prove your case but it only helps to weaken it.....

I am only telling the truth. You choose to be insulted by it. That's your problem, not mine. Don't start with the "I've been so good, and you're being bad" garbage, you have on many occasions posted untruths and falsehoods about Calvinism, to try and elevate yourself at their expense. You have been told by me and many others that you clearly and obviously do not understand or even correctly know Calvinist Doctrine, and your excuse is "there are so many different beliefs within Calvinism", which is not true.

You remain steadfast in your ignorance, which is never a good place to be. You refuse to be corrected on any point, but you try to hold us accountable for disagreeing with you about many things. It's time for us to hold you accountable for your ignorance of Calvinism. So, from this point on, make sure what you say about Calvinism is actually true, rather than heresay from anti-Calvinists, and others who fell away from it. they are not reliable witnesses, and you know it. As someone who purports to teach others, you have an obligation to be accurate and truthful. You have not been that way, and as has been pointed out, you will incur a stricter judgment because of that.

Since i am speaking truth, I cannot undermine my position. I don't need to defend Truth. Truth defends itself. I look to the Holy Spirit to prove the Truth of what i have written. Disagree all you want, it is YOU who will answer for it.

You can choose to be offended, or you can choose to listen and hopefully learn some lessons. The amount of resistance to your views is not evidence of the rightness of your position, it is evidence of your refusal to believe that any of us could help you to see the way of God more clearly. And you have great need of that very thing.

 

[nobdysfool]

I am talking against one of the points of Calvinism which allows for a believer to think they can sin and still be saved. Granted, not all people who believe in Calvinism may agree with that assessment, but then again, not all Calvinists believe the same thing, though....

Another example of crushing ignorance of what Calvinism teaches. This is your own made-up strawman, nothing more. No Calvinist believes as you claim. Get informed properly, or please remain silent. Every Calvinist here would tell you that you are wrong. And you are.

.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Your interpretation is way off.

The man who used God's gift was rewarded.

Oh - yes! That too.

But that's another parable isn't it?

Your interpretation of my parable is way off.

My parable was not about "stewardship" in the Kingdom of God. Both servants were good stewards of the work the master had for them as servants.

My parable was about proper and improper motives for obeying God.

All of the work that a believer supposedly does for God in this life may be for naught if his motive for doing that work is totally wrong.

 

[GillDouglas]

I am talking against one of the points of Calvinism which allows for a believer to think they can sin and still be saved. Granted, not all people who believe in Calvinism may agree with that assessment, but then again, not all Calvinists believe the same thing, though.
...

Which point of Calvinism states that a regenerated believer is permitted to freely sin and has no need to repent? Which point explicitly states that a person who continuously lives in unrepentant sin is saved? Which point suggests that a child of God will take pleasure in living in sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your missing the point.

No, you are. Terribly.

My life does does not change what is written in God's Word. Yes, I do believe I am saved. How so? Well, a believer who is in the Sanctification process is not living in sin day in and day out and if they do sin, they confess sin and they will in time overcome their sin with God's help. They have the hope that God will give them the victory in their life.

So, it seems you are saved by confession, not by faith in Christ. Well, that is contrary to Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. It wasn't repeated confession. It was to believe in Christ to be saved.

Your own testimony is that you believe you are saved because you "hope" to reach sinless perfection, and you confess your sins when you sin. No where in Scripture is that taught. No where.

What you believe will NOT save you. Nor anyone else. The sooner that is realized, the sooner you may come to the truth and actually be saved.

Not once in any of your posts have you emphazed the need to believe in Christ for salvation. It's all about becoming sinless. That whole viewpoint is unbiblical.

They are saved by God's grace because they are not making excuses for sin by saying they will sin at some point in the future.

What does God's grace have to do with your theories of becoming sinless? You've rejected the fact that Christ was the sacrifice for sin ONCE FOR ALL. And that you have to keep doing something in order to maintain or be saved. Totally unbiblical.

They have the hope that God will give them the victory perhaps even that very day. The believe. They have faith.

This is merely faith in oneself to keep endeavoring to become sinless. Again, it's all about becoming sinless when the ONLY condition of salvation is faith in Christ, which you've obviously rejected.

In other words, it would be like an alcoholic who enters himself into a program so as to overcome his sin of drunkeness. He believes in the program and fights to overcome it so as to one day be sober.

This isn't even close to Biblical salvation. It's a works program only. Exactly what satan wants everyone to believe. Those who do won't go to heaven, which is part of his goal.

But if this man stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober it is not the same thing as the alcoholic who says he will forever be a slave to his sin of drunkeness in this life. That is what OSAS is saying.

Not even close.

So now you believe in Sinless Perfectionism?

No. I know better. I know God's Word.

Why would God not want to help a believer to overcome sin in this life?

Of course He does. Which is why He puts the Holy Spirit into each believer. But this isn't the debate.

Also, Romans 7 is not talking about Paul's struggle with sin as a believer but this was said from his perspective as an unbeliever.

Continuing to repeat this false stuff doesn't make it true. The present tense throughout the chapter refutes your opinion.

I do know God and I do walk with Him. But I have never quenched the Spirit. That would be bad news for any believer.

Actually, you've admitted that you do continue to sin. Regardless of how little or how long, EVERY SIN quenches the Spirit. So you've just once again fulfilled 1 Jn 1:8 about being self deceived.

Sinless Perfectionism is also the goal for every believer in this life. I can preach about it

Since you have admitted that you haven't yet arrived, your words are hypocrisy.

just as I can preach about how Noah built an Ark. My failing to build an Ark does not mean I cannot talk about the building of the Ark myself.

There is no point if you yourself have failed.

What you fail to understand is that you still have an active sin nature, which is WHY you still sin, regardless of how much or little. Your hope to reach sinless perfection does NOT save you, nor anyone else.

But if you must know, I believe that the hope of Sinless Perfectionism is upon me even now.

It will not save you. Now, or ever.

I have this hope that He could help me to conquer all sin once and for all today or tomorrow.

Get back to me when you finally arrive, ok? Oh, and give me the phone number of your family members, and closest associates so I can check for myself whether your claim is true or not.

So I am not living in any kind of attitude of defeat or anything.

Those who know that we will continue to sin do not have an attitude of defeat. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who guides us into all truth and powers us to become more and more holy.

God's grace is there for me so as not to live in sin but to overcome it.

Why haven't you made any use of this grace then? You've admitted that you've not arrived at sinless perfection yet.

For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus is here to give us victory in this life over sin and not to remain enslaved to sin. What kind of God would allow His children to remain in defeat over sin?
....

Those who claim they have or will achieve sinless perfection in their present corrupt bodies have already been defeated by satan.

In your world (not real world) one must cease to sin to be saved. That blasphemes the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for ALL sin FOR ALL TIME.

I'm truly amazed that you've not seen it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Which point of Calvinism states that a regenerated believer is permitted to freely sin and has no need to repent? Which point explicitly states that a person who continuously lives in unrepentant sin is saved? Which point suggests that a child of God will take pleasure in living in sin?

It's just his little straw man that he likes to trot out with great fanfare to supposedly "leave Calvinists speechless". None of the 5 points say what he claims. He seems to think if he says it enough times, the falsehood will become true. That will never happen. What we need to do is make sure to refute anything he says about Calvinism. If he tells lies, we call him on them.