Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

lol Arrogance is a horrible sin. Claiming to be sinless is arrogance.

So you can't stop sinning for like 5 minutes? Is it arrogance to claim that one cannot stop sinning for that amount of time? I mean, stop and think for a moment. If you can stop sinning for 5 minutes, then logic dictates that you can stop sinning for a longer period of time, as well.

But I suppose Jesus assuming that the woman caught in the act of adultery and the man he healed would be arrogant if they actually heeded his words so as to: "sin no more"? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Of the 7 worst sins, 6 are sins of attitude. Only 1 is a horrible act; murder.

Prov 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.

Good passage. So yes, sin separates a person from God. I am glad we can agree on Conditional Salvation in the Scriptures.

To confess our sins. What does that imply? That we need a solution for the on-going problem of sin in our lives.

1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. To be forgiven of sin means you are being saved. In Matthew 6:15, it says we must forgive in order for the Father to forgive us. Can a believer go to heaven without being forgiven? Well, nowhere in Scriptures does it state that we can be saved and also not forgiven of our sins.

Do you really not understand the difference between sinning less and letting sin reign in your body? Apparently not.

The moment somebody sins as a part of their conscious decision that they will forever sin the rest of their life on occasion is making an allowance for letting sin reign in their mortal body. Sin can reign in the mortal body as long as 1 hour, or 1 day or however long it is before they confess and forsake of such sin. But if one makes a conscious choice that they will always sin the rest of their life (even a little for short brief moments) is making God to condone their sinful behavior in this life. For God cannot agree with a believer's future decision to do evil. God wants a believer to stop sinning and not to remain in their sin on any level. For God is holy and cannot agree with even one sin. This evident by the one sin that was committed in the Garden.

If a believer is only "not sinning on occasion", that means he's sinning more than not sinning. So he would be in violation. But those who are sinning less, because they are growing spiritually more and more, are NOT in violation.

Yes, and no. It depends on their attitude towards sin. A believer who says they will never stop sinning in this life is making excuses for sin even if they sin less and less over their life. But the believer who is striving to overcome their sin is not condemned because they are not trying to make excuses to remain in sin on some level in this life. They believe God and His Word that they can overcome sin and that He can indeed make them holy if they only believe.

You are clearly not understanding Scripture at any level.

I can say the same for you if you do not understand Conditional Salvation or if you do not understand that a believer is capable of ceasing from sin by God's power.

Or what it means to "reign".

Actually, Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would be Jesus having the victory over sin in a believer's life.

It means to be in charge. An occasional sin is not letting sin be in charge. Hardly. Just the opposite.

No. Occasional sin from a conscious decision that one will always sin the rest of their life (even if they believe they will sin less and less) is still making an excuse for sin. God cannot agree with such a decision for you to remain in your sin the rest of your life even if it was just one sin. For it only took one sin to separate God from man in the first place.



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[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
"I thought I had made it very clear that I don't make analogies, parables or metaphors to "illustrate spiritual truth". I just go directly to the Source, which seems to have no sway with you. I quote from the Bible when I want to show spiritual truth."

Again, parables are a part of Scripture. Our Lord used them and our Lord is our example. This means we can use parables or analogies, too.

Jesus never commanded that any of His disciples speak in parables. And I've already shown you WHY He did in the first place. And it wasn't for those who wanted the truth. It was for those who didn't want the truth. Just like what you've indicated.

Jesus never commanded the Canaanite woman to speak in a parable or analogy back towards him but she did so anyways. In fact, as a result she was commended for her great faith by doing so and her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour.

We'll dispense with all of your theories. Not worth it. And neither she nor Jesus made any analogy.

Metaphor: (Definition):

": a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor

The Bible does NOT teach conditional salvation.

No. The free gift had to be received (a condition) in order for it to go into effect. Why do you think all other conditions stop from that point?

Eternal life is a free gift of God (Rom 6:23).

By faith. And faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).

And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Get used to it.

Even though this verse can be applied to both Jews and Gentiles, this verse was said to Jews; And we know that the Jews had rejected their Messiah. God gifts and calling cannot be revoked. God sets out a plan of salvation for mankind to be saved that cannot be undone. This is not talking about how when a person receives God's gift it cannot be undone by their sin. The Scriptures are very clear in Hebrews 10:26. It says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

No. And irrelevant, as far as I can see.

Again, I do not believe it is irrelevant because you are denying the use of a believer making a parable or a metaphor so as to illustrate spiritual truth. But then again, you just recently agreed with another's posters parable (Which to me is confusing because you were so dead set on ignoring the use of parables before).

No, you've only said that you have. An opinion is not a refutation.

My defense against your wrong interpretation of Scripture can be backed up by looking at cross references, the context, and by showing parables or analogies.

The sad thing here is God has not revealed what you think is truth.

I disagree. I believe God has revealed the truth to me in regards to this matter because because:

1. Scripture backs me up in many places.
2. We know false prophets if they bring forth bad fruit or if their belief is not consistent with God's goodness or morality.
3. Analogies, parables, ect. confirm the truth of it.

And none of these verses support conditional salvation in any way. But I do understand that you think they do.

Yes, they do, dear sir. The Bible has many warnings given to the believer. These warnings would be meaningless if there was ultimately no real consequence for a believer's actions in this life.



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[Marvin Knox]

.................... parables are a part of Scripture. Our Lord used them and our Lord is our example. This means we can use parables or analogies, too....

THE PARABLE OF THE TWO CHRISTIAN SERVANTS

There were two servants who received a free gift from their master.

One servant was a meek man and knew that his master was a loving master who loved his servants unconditionally. This man saw the gift for what it was – an undeserved gift - thanked his master for the gift and served him joyfully all of his days simply because his master had been so kind to him.

The other servant was a proud man and saw his master as a hard man who loved only those who earned his love. This man saw the gift as something that had to be earned, told the master that he would try to earn the gift by serving him all of his days, and went about doing just that.

At the end of their service the master came to the two men with more gifts and asked them why it was that they had served him so faithfully.

The first man said that he served him because he loved his master simply because his master had first loved him.

The second man said that it was because he knew that his master was a hard man and that he served him in order to earn his love.

The master said to the first servant, “Well done good and faithful servant”. The master told the first servant to move up to the mansion, become his son instead of his servant, and enjoy his gifts forever.

The master said to the second man “You thought that I was a hard man did you? You thought that you had to earn my gifts did you? – You can continue to live on my estate but you shall not share in the inheritance- you wicked servant.”

Interpretation of the parable:

Blessed are the meek for theirs is the inheritance.

To be pitied are the proud for they shall suffer great loss.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

THE

The master said to the second man “You thought that I was a hard man did you? You thought that you had to earn my gifts did you? – You can continue to live on my estate but you shall not share in the inheritance- you wicked servant.”

Interpretation of the parable:

Blessed are the meek for theirs is the inheritance.

To be pitied are the proud for they shall suffer great loss.

First, of all Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
So love is expressed in our obedience to our Lord.

Second, Jesus also said this about unprofitable and lazy servant.

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: " (Matthew 25:24-26).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).​

Three, your parable minimizes sin and speaks nothing of how sin should be punished fairly and justly.

In the real world, kings or leaders do not love their servants unconditionally. If a servant betrays their king by sinning against him, he will have to throw himself at the mercy of the king and seek restitution so as to make things right. For there is no king or leader today who rewards evil done against him and his kingdom. That doesn't make any sense.

In other words, your parable or analogy does not fit the real world; And therefore is nothing like the parables Jesus Christ had provided for us.



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[sdowney717]

I have never been good at telling stories.
Speaking in parables nowhere is that being taught in the apostle's doctrine for believers to do.

Jesus's parables do not reveal truth, they hide it. For His parables to have the correct understanding even His chosen apostles went to Him to ask Him what the parable meant, they did not second guess Christ about what He said, but people will presume and then it is a presumptuous sin they commit. Those who claim 'sinless perfectionism' ought then simply not say a single word trying to tell us what Christ said by their presumptuous interpretations. Their teaching is sinful presumption, and they have not repented yet.

An old testament prophet who spoke presumptuously in the name of the LORD was to be ignored and even put to death.

Deuteronomy 18
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

Deuteronomy 13 New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

 

[nobdysfool]

First, of all Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
So love is expressed in our obedience to our Lord.

Second, Jesus also said this about unprofitable and lazy servant.

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: " (Matthew 25:24-26).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).​

Three, your parable minimizes sin and speaks nothing of how sin should be punished fairly and justly.

In the real world, kings or leaders do not love their servants unconditionally. If a servant betrays their king by sinning against him, he will have to throw himself at the mercy of the king and seek restitution so as to make things right. For there is no king or leader today who rewards evil done against him and his kingdom. That doesn't make any sense.

In other words, your parable or analogy does not fit the real world; And therefore is nothing like the parables Jesus Christ had provided for us.....

As can be clearly seen here, even if one does attempt to provide what Jason asked for, he then sits in judgment over it, and rejects it. It doesn't meet his standard, therefore he claims to still be right, even though he has been shown time and time again to be in error. He demands a level of perfection from us that he is not able to meet. why should we listen to such a person? He has nothing of value to offer the discussion...

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, of all Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
So love is expressed in our obedience to our Lord.

Second, Jesus also said this about unprofitable and lazy servant.

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: " (Matthew 25:24-26).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).​

Three, your parable minimizes sin and speaks nothing of how sin should be punished fairly and justly.

In the real world, kings or leaders do not love their servants unconditionally. If a servant betrays their king by sinning against him, he will have to throw himself at the mercy of the king and seek restitution so as to make things right. For there is no king or leader today who rewards evil done against him and his kingdom. That doesn't make any sense.

In other words, your parable or analogy does not fit the real world; And therefore is nothing like the parables Jesus Christ had provided for us.



....

one of the problems is that you feel that God needs to deal with sin fair and justly.

But God did just that by putting the sins of the world on His Son.

I am so surprised that you would have written that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

As can be clearly seen here, even if one does attempt to provide what Jason asked for, he then sits in judgment over it, and rejects it. It doesn't meet his standard, therefore he claims to still be right, even though he has been shown time and time again to be in error. He demands a level of perfection from us that he is not able to meet. why should we listen to such a person? He has nothing of value to offer the discussion...

Exactly.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, parables are a part of Scripture. Our Lord used them and our Lord is our example. This means we can use parables or analogies, too.



Jesus never commanded the Canaanite woman to speak in a parable or analogy back towards him but she did so anyways. In fact, as a result she was commended for her great faith by doing so and her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour.



Metaphor: (Definition):

": a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor



No. The free gift had to be received (a condition) in order for it to go into effect. Why do you think all other conditions stop from that point?



By faith. And faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).



Even though this verse can be applied to both Jews and Gentiles, this verse was said to Jews; And we know that the Jews had rejected their Messiah. God gifts and calling cannot be revoked. God sets out a plan of salvation for mankind to be saved that cannot be undone. This is not talking about how when a person receives God's gift it cannot be undone by their sin. The Scriptures are very clear in Hebrews 10:26. It says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.



Again, I do not believe it is irrelevant because you are denying the use of a believer making a parable or a metaphor so as to illustrate spiritual truth. But then again, you just recently agreed with another's posters parable (Which to me is confusing because you were so dead set on ignoring the use of parables before).



My defense against your wrong interpretation of Scripture can be backed up by looking at cross references, the context, and by showing parables or analogies.



I disagree. I believe God has revealed the truth to me in regards to this matter because because:

1. Scripture backs me up in many places.
2. We know false prophets if they bring forth bad fruit or if their belief is not consistent with God's goodness or morality.
3. Analogies, parables, ect. confirm the truth of it.



Yes, they do, dear sir. The Bible has many warnings given to the believer. These warnings would be meaningless if there was ultimately no real consequence for a believer's actions in this life.



...

Maybe the only way you can understand God is to give Him the same attributes as man.

Because I hear a lot of your own thinking mixed in with scripture.

What one needs to do is find out who God really is through the scripture, not try to lean on your understanding and decide who you think God is

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, of all Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
So love is expressed in our obedience to our Lord.

Second, Jesus also said this about unprofitable and lazy servant.

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: " (Matthew 25:24-26).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).​

Three, your parable minimizes sin and speaks nothing of how sin should be punished fairly and justly.

In the real world, kings or leaders do not love their servants unconditionally. If a servant betrays their king by sinning against him, he will have to throw himself at the mercy of the king and seek restitution so as to make things right. For there is no king or leader today who rewards evil done against him and his kingdom. That doesn't make any sense.

In other words, your parable or analogy does not fit the real world; And therefore is nothing like the parables Jesus Christ had provided for us.



....

Lol

 

[Thursday]

THE PARABLE OF THE TWO CHRISTIAN SERVANTS

There were two servants who received a free gift from their master.

One servant was a meek man and knew that his master was a loving master who loved his servants unconditionally. This man saw the gift for what it was – an undeserved gift - thanked his master for the gift and served him joyfully all of his days simply because his master had been so kind to him.

The other servant was a proud man and saw his master as a hard man who loved only those who earned his love. This man saw the gift as something that had to be earned, told the master that he would try to earn the gift by serving him all of his days, and went about doing just that.

At the end of their service the master came to the two men with more gifts and asked them why it was that they had served him so faithfully.

The first man said that he served him because he loved his master simply because his master had first loved him.

The second man said that it was because he knew that his master was a hard man and that he served him in order to earn his love.

The master said to the first servant, “Well done good and faithful servant”. The master told the first servant to move up to the mansion, become his son instead of his servant, and enjoy his gifts forever.

The master said to the second man “You thought that I was a hard man did you? You thought that you had to earn my gifts did you? – You can continue to live on my estate but you shall not share in the inheritance- you wicked servant.”

Interpretation of the parable:

Blessed are the meek for theirs is the inheritance.

To be pitied are the proud for they shall suffer great loss.

Your interpretation is way off.

The man who used God's gift was rewarded.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have never been good at telling stories.

Speaking in parables nowhere is that being taught in the apostle's doctrine for believers to do.

Jesus's parables do not reveal truth, they hide it. For His parables to have the correct understanding even His chosen apostles went to Him to ask Him what the parable meant, they did not second guess Christ about what He said, but people will presume and then it is a presumptuous sin they commit. Those who claim 'sinless perfectionism' ought then simply not say a single word trying to tell us what Christ said by their presumptuous interpretations. Their teaching is sinful presumption, and they have not repented yet.

An old testament prophet who spoke presumptuously in the name of the LORD was to be ignored and even put to death.

Deuteronomy 18
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

Deuteronomy 13 New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

First, Jesus parables were meant to hide the truth to only unbelievers and NOT believers. Believers were supposed to know what the parables actually meant. For it is written...

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" (Matthew 13:10-11).​

So believers can KNOW the truth of what the parables were actually saying.

Second, to say that just because there are no commands for us to speak in parables equates with us not being allowed to speak in parables is ridiculous. Jesus quoted Scripture about how David ate the showbread as an example to his situation involving the Sabbath. Jesus did not need a reference of some kind of command in God's Word. Also, the Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own. In fact, the very making of this parable is what caused Jesus to declare that her faith was very great and to heal her daughter of a devil that very hour. So unless this Canaanite woman is some kind of alien that has special rights and privileges that are different than a believer today, then we can also use parables like she did.

Four, the passage in Deuteronomy you are quoting is clearly talking to to a person claiming to be of God who provides a prophecy whereby it does not come to pass as being true. This passage has nothing to do with parables. A prophecy that does not come to pass is not the same thing as a parable. A parable is a present day truth or story described in the real world that we are familar with already that parallels or expresses a spiritual truth.

Five, you said you were not good at telling stories. Then you immediately jump into saying how believers were never told to make a parable. As I said before, there are examples in Scripture that expresses a truth for us to learn from in Scripture without God specifically making it a Command for us to do. Anyways, you cannot equate your inability to tell stories as being a plausible reason or valid point so as not to make parable. While I believe God's people all have different gifts, I believe parable making is something that all true believers will easily know how to do because they possess the truth. God can easily show them things in the real world that relates to truth in the spirit world. For Jesus made parables as a way of expressing truth amongst themselves as believers but it was unknown to those who were of the world (who were unbelievers).


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[Bible Highlighter]

As can be clearly seen here, even if one does attempt to provide what Jason asked for, he then sits in judgment over it, and rejects it. It doesn't meet his standard, therefore he claims to still be right, even though he has been shown time and time again to be in error. He demands a level of perfection from us that he is not able to meet. why should we listen to such a person? He has nothing of value to offer the discussion...

I have used Scripture and talked in a respectful way in my post. If you disagree, then feel free to explain what those verses are really saying instead of insulting me. Fo insulting me in no way helps to prove your case but it only helps to weaken it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Lol

Yes, Jesus was also laughed at when He spoke, too (Luke 8:53).


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[ToBeLoved]

Yes, Jesus was also laughed at when He spoke, too (Luke 8:53).
....

You are not Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Been there done that, babble subjectlessly away

Interesting word choice (i.e. "babble"). Why do you think one of the reasons God had chosen to confound the language of men at the tower of Babel? Well, one of the reasons was because they sinned by not obeying God's Command to spread out over the Earth. In other words, sin always comes with major consequences.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You are not Jesus.

It is written...

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." (John 15:20).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe the only way you can understand God is to give Him the same attributes as man.

Because I hear a lot of your own thinking mixed in with scripture.

What one needs to do is find out who God really is through the scripture, not try to lean on your understanding and decide who you think God is

So you are saying that Jesus did not make any parables that relates a man as talking about God?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Everything that you said fits in properly with what Job8 used in his parable.

His parable told of the many negative consequences that ensued because of the man's abuse of his new heart. It just stopped short of what you teach. You teach that, because a man abuses his new heart, the surgeon revisits him, cuts him open and takes the new heart away from him for abusing it.

Nobody has to cut a man's new heart out to punish him for horrible crimes he may do again. His new heart will stop beating by being punished for doing evil like murdering, raping, or hurting others, etc. Why on Earth would God allow an evil man into Heaven? Are you telling me a belief alone is what truly makes a person righteous? If so, then how do you explain 1 John 3:7?

In this respect my parable was much like Job8's parable in that it told of great loss to men for abusing their new found life. But, like mine, it stopped short of saying that God would (in my parable) disown him or (in Job8's parable) take his heart away.

You've asked (even demanded) parables from everyone that told what they believed and how it makes perfect sense. That's two people now who have gone to the trouble of accommodating you. You have rejected each one's view as, of course, you would.

I rejected each parable because they are ignoring basic truths in the real world. That is what a parable does. A parable illustrates a truth in the real world so as to express a truth in the spirit world. But this only works if you do not ignore the laws or truths in the real world. That is the problem with both of your parables. They ignore reality on some level. That is why you will never be able to make a parable so as to defend the goodness of OSAS.

Under your profile - you list your ministry as an "Anti-OSAS Evangelist". IMO you need to knock off your evangelical agenda of undermining the faith of others and concentrate a little more on working on your own faith.

It is not my agenda. It is God's agenda to lead people into holiness and out of sin. One cannot do that if they believe in OSAS because it makes an allowance for sin and or minimizes the punishment of sin.

(Or should I say lack of faith?) You certainly have no faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on behalf of believers.

Insults are not becoming of the saints. Please stick to Scripture to make your case.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

In your parable the alcoholic is thrown out of the class be the teacher if he slips.

Every one who enters an AA group does so with the hope and prayer that he will achieve long range and even permanent sobriety.

Everyone who enters the Kingdom of God and into a real relationship with the Holy Spirit does so with the hope and prayer that he will achieve long range and even permanent victory over sin.

And this is where you ignore the parallel. You believe the alcoholic (i.e. the believer) has to die in order to overcome his alcoholic addiction (i.e. a believer's addiction to sin). For you do not believe a believer will overcome sin in this life. They have to first die in order to overcome sin. So that means you must also believe the alcoholic has to also die in order to overcome his sin of drunkenness, too. But we both know that alcoholics can overcome their sin to drunkenness. Which means.... a believer can also overcome their sin, too.

But, much like your alcoholic illustration, an alcoholic remains an alcoholic for life and says so at every meeting.

He who will not admit to being an alcoholic every time he is introduced at an AA meeting is called on it by the teacher and the others in the group as well.

But this is a worldly man made philiosphy of helping people to overcome their sin. Nowhere does God endorse all of the methods that are used in AA meetings. Also, a person saying they are an alcoholic is negative reinforcement of their old life if they have overcome that type of sin and they no longer have a desire to drink again. Oh, and yes. There are ex alcoholics who do not have a desire to drink ever again.

He who says that he has no sin is a liar.

And your taking 1 John 1:8 out of context. 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know him and do not keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about those false sessionists who claimed that sin did not exist for them. Read the New English Translation for 1 John 1:8 at BibleGateway here and it will become clear in what it actually says.


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