Star Wars, Samurai & Monomyth: Cool Seeing the Origins of the Film BEFORE you go to the New Film...

[Gxg (G²)]

Just look at real life. People find it easy to glance over certain details when they want to see someone in a certain way. Not sure about the force ghosts. Maybe Kylo/Ben didn't see them. Although I know it's not 'canon' anymore, I remember a book that mentioned the longer someone was dead, the less powerful their 'force ghost' became until eventually it was gone. Who know!?

Just a thought, but what if the spirit of the Emperor survived and spoke to Kylo?

It just occurred to me since the Emperor's spirit survived in the original extended universe.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Probably not widely known and considered a lie. The only person who saw Anakin came around to the light side again was Luke. When Kylo went against Luke he probably told himself Luke was lying.

Hopefully they bring back Luke Skywalker in a way that echoes his own journey to becoming a Jedi, powerful as that journey was....

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I do hope that they feel bold enough to walk new paths.

I did not mind that the new film was a "soft reboot", drawing so strongly upon the first trilogy: they needed to show that they could do better than the prequels, and the safest way to do that was to walk familiar ground, drawing upon well-established motifs. It worked, it was great, and I enjoyed it a lot.

But as for future installments, I want to be surprised. I would not wish the final confrontation in the series to be a re-creation of the Emperor's throne room scene, nor see Kylo Ren throw Supreme Leader Snoke into the core of another Starkiller base.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I do hope that they feel bold enough to walk new paths.

I did not mind that the new film was a "soft reboot", drawing so strongly upon the first trilogy: they needed to show that they could do better than the prequels, and the safest way to do that was to walk familiar ground, drawing upon well-established motifs. It worked, it was great, and I enjoyed it a lot.

But as for future installments, I want to be surprised. I would not wish the final confrontation in the series to be a re-creation of the Emperor's throne room scene, nor see Kylo Ren throw Supreme Leader Snoke into the core of another Starkiller base.

What would be something you think the new series would need to surprise others in?

I do think, as an aside, that many are expecting it to be exactly as the older films were with what got their attention last time ....and if it does go new, then the claim to come out will be "That's not Star Wars!!!!!" because of others saying they want something like the old feeling they got in the original trilogy and yet they want differently. I think it's hard for folks to make up their minds and give credit where it's due. You now have a powerful female Jedi who is leading..

 

[Hoshiyya]

I think the Dune series, and particularly the first four books, is a superior manifestation of the monomyth. It seemed it is however not as cinematic or easily translatable to screen and mass market as SW, but that might change in the future. It is the best selling science fiction book series of all time, after all.

The reason I think it is a more essential form of the monomyth is in part because Paul/Muad'Dib not only masters the Dune equivalent of the force, but ultimately becomes the emperor and establishes a royal dynasty (which is the focus of the subsequent books). SW ends as soon as the celebration after the final battle has begun, and as the new trilogy shows us, history has only repeated itself with a new death star four times as big as the first one being built. Nothing has progressed and the galaxy is not better off than before.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I think the Dune series, and particularly the first four books, is a superior manifestation of the monomyth. It seemed it is however not as cinematic or easily translatable to screen and mass market as SW, but that might change in the future. It is the best selling science fiction book series of all time, after all.

The reason I think it is a more essential form of the monomyth is in part because Paul/Muad'Dib not only masters the Dune equivalent of the force, but ultimately becomes the emperor and establishes a royal dynasty (which is the focus of the subsequent books). SW ends as soon as the celebration after the final battle has begun, and as the new trilogy shows us, history has only repeated itself with a new death star four times as big as the first one being built. Nothing has progressed and the galaxy is not better off than before.

Have you read the same novels as I have?

Because to me, what you write above does not describe Frank Herbert's series at all.

Paul Atreides seizes upon myths that were deliberately seeded among the native population of Arrakis by the Bene Gesserit: it's not a genuine prophecy, but an act of social engineering conducted by the order to create support for their ideology. Nor do his abilities keep history from repeating: instead, he becomes caught in a deterministic loop, where his own extrapolations trap him in specific courses of action. His reign rests on feet of clay - and the "success" of his children isn't exactly that, either.
His son deliberately turns himself into a symbol of tyranny, of benign stagnation under a godlike overlord, and his sole goal is to bring about a new, indeterministic path for mankind by searching for people who operate outside of the prescient paths that he can foresee. By the end Frank Herbert's original series, that goal was nowhere near achieved.

I tried reading the sequels written by his son, but they are so awfully shallow and superficial that I quit after the first try. It's pure popcorn with none of the deep, philosophical issues that made the originals so great: all "pew-pew", but no substance.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the Dune series, and particularly the first four books, is a superior manifestation of the monomyth. It seemed it is however not as cinematic or easily translatable to screen and mass market as SW, but that might change in the future. It is the best selling science fiction book series of all time, after all.

The reason I think it is a more essential form of the monomyth is in part because Paul/Muad'Dib not only masters the Dune equivalent of the force, but ultimately becomes the emperor and establishes a royal dynasty (which is the focus of the subsequent books). SW ends as soon as the celebration after the final battle has begun, and as the new trilogy shows us, history has only repeated itself with a new death star four times as big as the first one being built. Nothing has progressed and the galaxy is not better off than before.

I have never read the Dune series, although the movies were always discussed with some of my friends growing up. Concerning monomyth, would be intrigued on how the stories progressed and I think you make a Very interesting point with how progress has not really occurred in the SW universe. I thought the same dynamic occurred with having even more death stars of grander size made - although that was also in the EXTENDED universe of the original Star Wars cannon....if ever hearing of Sun Crusher (more here).
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher

​

Ultimately, it seems like a concept of "Nothing changes." I am reminded of the following image:

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Have you read the same novels as I have?

Because to me, what you write above does not describe Frank Herbert's series at all.

Paul Atreides seizes upon myths that were deliberately seeded among the native population of Arrakis by the Bene Gesserit: it's not a genuine prophecy, but an act of social engineering conducted by the order to create support for their ideology. Nor do his abilities keep history from repeating: instead, he becomes caught in a deterministic loop, where his own extrapolations trap him in specific courses of action. His reign rests on feet of clay - and the "success" of his children isn't exactly that, either.
His son deliberately turns himself into a symbol of tyranny, of benign stagnation under a godlike overlord, and his sole goal is to bring about a new, indeterministic path for mankind by searching for people who operate outside of the prescient paths that he can foresee. By the end Frank Herbert's original series, that goal was nowhere near achieved.

I tried reading the sequels written by his son, but they are so awfully shallow and superficial that I quit after the first try. It's pure popcorn with none of the deep, philosophical issues that made the originals so great: all "pew-pew", but no substance.

Intriguing...

 

[Hoshiyya]

Have you read the same novels as I have?

Because to me, what you write above does not describe Frank Herbert's series at all.

Paul Atreides seizes upon myths that were deliberately seeded among the native population of Arrakis by the Bene Gesserit: it's not a genuine prophecy, but an act of social engineering conducted by the order to create support for their ideology. Nor do his abilities keep history from repeating: instead, he becomes caught in a deterministic loop, where his own extrapolations trap him in specific courses of action. His reign rests on feet of clay - and the "success" of his children isn't exactly that, either.
His son deliberately turns himself into a symbol of tyranny, of benign stagnation under a godlike overlord, and his sole goal is to bring about a new, indeterministic path for mankind by searching for people who operate outside of the prescient paths that he can foresee. By the end Frank Herbert's original series, that goal was nowhere near achieved.

I tried reading the sequels written by his son, but they are so awfully shallow and superficial that I quit after the first try. It's pure popcorn with none of the deep, philosophical issues that made the originals so great: all "pew-pew", but no substance.

Paul becomes recognized as Kwisatz Haderach (acknowledging his internal powers) and Emperor of the galaxy (acknowledging his external powers and his procreative power in the form of a dynasty) and his son, Leto II the God Emperor puts mankind on the "golden path", with a benevolent goal of scattering mankind in such a way that they cannot all be ruled over by a single emperor after him.

The Bene Gesserit are not the origin of every religious or supernatural phenomena in the Duniverse to my knowledge, and even they acknowledge that there are real supernatural phenomena out there, such as their magical, supernatural contact with ancestors.

No character in Dune is perfect, but it does show a progessing hero's journey and monomyth in a way that is more "complete" than SW in my humble opinion, particularly since Muad'Dib actually conquers and progesses in the story, he doesn't just bring down an empire and wait for it to rebuild.

I do like SW a lot though !

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Paul becomes recognized as Kwisatz Haderach (acknowledging his internal powers) and Emperor of the galaxy (acknowledging his external powers and his procreative power in the form of a dynasty) and his son, Leto II the God Emperor puts mankind on the "golden path", with a benevolent goal of scattering mankind in such a way that they cannot all be ruled over by a single emperor after him.

The Bene Gesserit are not the origin of every religious or supernatural phenomena in the Duniverse to my knowledge, and even they acknowledge that there are real supernatural phenomena out there, such as their magical, supernatural contact with ancestors.

No character in Dune is perfect, but it does show a progessing hero's journey and monomyth in a way that is more "complete" than SW in my humble opinion, particularly since Muad'Dib actually conquers and progesses in the story, he doesn't just bring down an empire and wait for it to rebuild.

I do like SW a lot though !

Can a monomyth work backwards or is it only forward progression? Can it go forward initially and then end in tragedy?

For interesting review:

• The Villain's Journey - Absolute Write
  
  
• The Villain's Journey » firstthecolors
  

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Paul becomes recognized as Kwisatz Haderach (acknowledging his internal powers) and Emperor of the galaxy (acknowledging his external powers and his procreative power in the form of a dynasty) and his son, Leto II the God Emperor puts mankind on the "golden path", with a benevolent goal of scattering mankind in such a way that they cannot all be ruled over by a single emperor after him.

The Bene Gesserit are not the origin of every religious or supernatural phenomena in the Duniverse to my knowledge, and even they acknowledge that there are real supernatural phenomena out there, such as their magical, supernatural contact with ancestors.

No character in Dune is perfect, but it does show a progessing hero's journey and monomyth in a way that is more "complete" than SW in my humble opinion, particularly since Muad'Dib actually conquers and progesses in the story, he doesn't just bring down an empire and wait for it to rebuild.

I do like SW a lot though !

This is making me realize all the more, based on your comments, that the SW universe would perhaps need to go the direction of having the hero become a de-facto leader of whatever is left after a final battle - and perhaps realize that all sides need to be brought together.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Can a monomyth work backwards or is it only forward progression? Can it go forward initially and then end in tragedy?

For interesting review:

• The Villain's Journey - Absolute Write
  
  
• The Villain's Journey » firstthecolors

​

To me, the classic monomyth is a progression and maturation, so it makes sense for me to have a "forward progression" as you put it.
But we have great stories, like Macbeth, that fit a "villainous" myth pattern (I had never heard of that term before, thanks for sharing that). We also have somewhat unconventional stories like Merchant of Venice (a role which I think was excellently played by Al Pacino in that one movie adaption).

I like your idea for how to end the Sequel Trilogy.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To me, the classic monomyth is a progression and maturation, so it makes sense for me to have a "forward progression" as you put it.
But we have great stories, like Macbeth, that fit a "villainous" myth pattern (I had never heard of that term before, thanks for sharing that). We also have somewhat unconventional stories like Merchant of Venice (a role which I think was excellently played by Al Pacino in that one movie adaption).

I like your idea for how to end the Sequel Trilogy.

​

Macbeth would be a great example of a myth pattern, although I have also considered stories like Oedipus Rex which seemed to go backward and end in tragedy.

• Oedipus Rex: Hero's Journey

And I am not certain if you saw it earlier, but in the original expanded universe, the way the universe ended is similar to what was suggested, as referenced here:

I am still a bit perplexed at the political climate of the movie and wondering what it is that they will do with it. In my understanding, I wonder as to whether it would ever be the case that someone simply TAKE OVER THE REMNANTS of the Empire but use them as a force for good...as the Republic vs. Empire concept does not seem to be consistent many times when seeing damage done on both sides...just as it has been with the Rise of the Sith and Sith Empires in opposition to the Jedi. And there's no "Good or Bad" with the Force anyhow, as it concerns my understanding.

At this point, I'd really not mind having a Galactic Emperor who was simply a righteous Jedi instead of this eternal battling that has always done damage to the Republic. It's not as if there are no Republics where there is an Emperor overseeing things and seeking to bring others into unison .....

​

Within the world of Star Wars, this has actually happened....although it became more so an Empire based on a Council. This occurred in the original extended universe of Star Wars before Disney took over and had the new episodes be the main cannon (more here, here , here and here / here if wanting to see the The Star Wars Expanded Universe Timeline ) - but specifically, at one point they merge the Jedi and the Galactic Empire and other factions into one force. Very impressive...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I like your idea for how to end the Sequel Trilogy.

If Rey ended up becoming Empress over the galaxy, with Luke's begrudging approval after seeing all that has happened in his lifetime, I would really say that ending would be beautiful.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Well, Rey does mean king, so...

Thanks for all the info on the EU btw, I wasn't aware of that stuff. I read from one of your links that the Galactic Federation Triumverate ends up headed by an Empress Marasia Fel, so maybe Rey could inherit that position in JJ's canon.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well, Rey does mean king, so...

I had NO idea that is what her name means. Wow....now that I think about it, I can definitely see where things may be going.

Thanks for all the info on the EU btw, I wasn't aware of that stuff. I read from one of your links that the Galactic Federation Triumverate ends up headed by an Empress Marasia Fel, so maybe Rey could inherit that position in JJ's canon.

Would not be surprised - and in all realness, that would be an arc that would fit.

 

[awitch]

I was kind of thinking that Rey would turn to the Darkside. She was learning her force powers rather quickly without a master and was fighting quite aggressively with Kylo in the forest. She also has the most tragic backstory that we know of so far.

 

[ScripturalReasoning]

Well I guess you've probably seen this about George Lucas's influence under a Buddhist master...

http://www.lionsroar.com/was-yoda-based-on-this-buddhist-master/

and with with a twist now that Yoda has given his name to new deep sea worm species...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/05/yoda-worm-star-wars

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well I guess you've probably seen this about George Lucas's influence under a Buddhist master...

http://www.lionsroar.com/was-yoda-based-on-this-buddhist-master/

and with with a twist now that Yoda has given his name to new deep sea worm species...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/05/yoda-worm-star-wars

Did not know about the connection with Yoda being influenced by a Buddhist master, but it definitely makes things more interesting when seeing how many Asian religious views were brought to bear on the film

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I was kind of thinking that Rey would turn to the Darkside. She was learning her force powers rather quickly without a master and was fighting quite aggressively with Kylo in the forest. She also has the most tragic backstory that we know of so far.

That'd be interesting, especially if Kylo came back to the light side at her expense...