Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

[ewq1938]

Well, since there are no chapters or verses in the original text, one must see how 53 follow 52. I don't see any indication that the speaker of the beginning is supposed to be Israel. Could you show me where that clearly is?

It doesn't matter concerning chapters. The subject can change and does. 53 definitely speaks of a certain individual that does not and can not represent a whole nation of people. The things that he does and experiences do no match to an entire people. It's nonsensical to even promote that.

You probably should read the article since it is the start of this discussion.

I can't discuss with the articles author but I can with people here that agree with what the article says which is what we are currently doing.

 

[ewq1938]

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Israel will be redeemed without money. We see this mentioned in chp 53:

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This is attested through all of 53.


Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Here in 13 we have the first introduction of this singular man and the suffering he would endure. He is not representative of the kings, verse 15 makes that clear and the next chapter makes it clear he is not representative of Israel either. Verse 15 says he will "sprinkle" many nations, and the Kings will be silent and it says they will see and consider something they hear, which must originate from this same man. These nations and kings are gentiles who instead of reject Him, see and consider what he says....unable to open their mouths against him.


Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

The subject is still this man, and it is still Isaiah speaking. When he says we, he is speaking of Israel which he also calls "my people".

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

But the WE here do not see and consider him....they reject and despise him.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


As chp 52 said, Israel would be redeemed without money...obviously redeemed by sacrifice regarding this man.


Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Amen, he did.

 

[LoAmmi]

If I would put the effort into explaining the Jewish point of view, would you bother reading it and attempting to understand? I've no intention of spending time on something you will just dismiss as you dismissed even reading the article.

 

[ewq1938]

If I would put the effort into explaining the Jewish point of view, would you bother reading it and attempting to understand? I've no intention of spending time on something you will just dismiss as you dismissed even reading the article.

Go ahead but you err in thinking I am not already well aware of "the Jewish point of view". This isn't the first time I have discussed this with those of the faith of Judaism lol

 

[LoAmmi]

Go ahead but you err in thinking I am not already well aware of "the Jewish point of view". This isn't the first time I have discussed this with those of the faith of Judaism lol

If that's the case I am surprised you focus so much on the word he when even in the Torah Israel is referred to as a singular like he.

 

[ewq1938]

If that's the case I am surprised you focus so much on the word he when even in the Torah Israel is referred to as a singular like he.

Israel is not always the "he" spoken of. One must investigate every instance to know. Israel is not the "he" in chp 52-53, and that is painfully obvious

 

[LoAmmi]

Israel is not always the "he" spoken of. One must investigate every instance to know. Israel is not the "he" in chp 52-53, and that is painfully obvious

No, it isn't. You just declaring it doesn't make it so. You believe it refers to that, and that's fine don't basically say that I'm too stupid to see what it says.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Go ahead but you err in thinking I am not already well aware of "the Jewish point of view". This isn't the first time I have discussed this with those of the faith of Judaism lol

And it isn’t the first time I have seen people of other religions twist and distort our scripture lol...

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Israel is not always the "he" spoken of. One must investigate every instance to know. Israel is not the "he" in chp 52-53, and that is painfully obvious

It is also painfully obvious that chapters did not appear in Isaiah until the 1440’s.

 

[ewq1938]

No, it isn't. You just declaring it doesn't make it so. You believe it refers to that, and that's fine don't basically say that I'm too stupid to see what it says.

It's not a matter of intelligence but preconceived beliefs blinding someone from seeing what is actually being said...but as you say, you believe it refers to Israel as the he and that's fine. There are obvious issues with that belief however.

 

[ewq1938]

And it isn’t the first time I have seen people of other religions twist and distort our scripture lol...

People of other religions twist our scripture as well.

 

[ewq1938]

It is also painfully obvious that chapters did not appear in Isaiah until the 1440’s.

Again, the chapter numbers are irrelevant other than for referencing which area of the book to focus upon.

 

[LoAmmi]

It's not a matter of intelligence but preconceived beliefs blinding someone from seeing what is actually being said...but as you say, you believe it refers to Israel as the he and that's fine. There are obvious issues with that belief however.

In your opinion. In mine there are obvious issues with yours. It isn't a slam dunk for either view.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hi Folks - remember me
Just a quick one. First, thanks to all participants so far. I'm learning stuff from what goes down here.
To ewq and Danny, Come on guys, robust focused discussion = good : spiky I'm right, you're wrong, thump thump = not so good
To Robban, I'm worried about all these late nights you're having
You'll be glad to know (or maybe not ) that I'm starting on the second part of my critique of Lo Ammi's Hebrew Café thesis. But I'm slow and don't do late nights. So ...
As the little boy said, God bless us all.
><>

 

[Robban]

Hi Folks - remember me
Just a quick one. First, thanks to all participants so far. I'm learning stuff from what goes down here.
To ewq and Danny, Come on guys, robust focused discussion = good : spiky I'm right, you're wrong, thump thump = not so good
To Robban, I'm worried about all these late nights you're having
You'll be glad to know (or maybe not ) that I'm starting on the second part of my critique of Lo Ammi's Hebrew Café thesis. But I'm slow and don't do late nights. So ...
As the little boy said, God bless us all.
><>

 

[Job8]

Isaiah was not written with chapters and verses.

Which is totally irrelevant. Isaiah 52 and 53 are about the Messiah. The ancient rabbis applied these passages to the Messiah (as well as many others). For confirmation see The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim (a Hebrew Christian who had a total grasp of rabbinic writings).

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Which is totally irrelevant. Isaiah 52 and 53 are about the Messiah. The ancient rabbis applied these passages to the Messiah (as well as many others). For confirmation see The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim (a Hebrew Christian who had a total grasp of rabbinic writings).

And I could find several books written by Jews that have even a better grasp on rabbinic writings that will say otherwise. Jews that convert to Christianity are not a big mystic draw and authority or are as impressive for Jews like they are for Christians. Just like the former Christians that convert to Judaism don’t cause a mass exodus to Judaism.

 

[LoAmmi]

Which is totally irrelevant. Isaiah 52 and 53 are about the Messiah. The ancient rabbis applied these passages to the Messiah (as well as many others). For confirmation see The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim (a Hebrew Christian who had a total grasp of rabbinic writings).

Ancient rabbis also applied it to David, to Moses, or to any righteous person who suffered when they were drawing parallels. They did not believe that the Messiah would come and be killed for the sins of the world anymore than they would have said Moses or David did.

I won't go raiding Christian writings to prove Judaism, Christians could at least do the same with Jewish writings.

 

[Job8]

And I could find several books written by Jews that have even a better grasp on rabbinic writings that will say otherwise.

Again that is irrelevant. Actual quotations from the two Talmuds, the Targumim, and the Midrashim prove that Jewish rabbis saw Messiah in these passages (and many others). So you can't dispute with these quotations, although you would probably like to dismiss them. And putting down Alfred Edersheim and hs scholarship does not do a service to anyone.

 

[ewq1938]

http://jewishroots.net/library/prophecy/isaiah/isaiah-53/what-rabbis-said-2.html


Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b): "Messiah ...what is his name? The Rabbis say,'The leprous one'; those of the house of the Rabbi (Jehuda Hanassi, the author of the Mishna, 135-200) say: 'Cholaja' (The sickly), for it says, 'Surely he has borne our sicknesses' etc. (Isa.53,4)."

Babylonian Talmud, (Sanhedrin 98), p.2 "Rabbi Yochanan said, The Messiah-what is his name?... And out Rabbis said. "the pale one"... is his name, as it is written "Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows-yet we considered him stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted."

Midrash Ruth Rabbah: 2:14 "Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): -- He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,' draw near to the throne; and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.'"

Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

Rabbi Moses Maimonides: (1135-1204) "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will hearken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived." (From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)

Rabbi Moses, 'The Preacher'(11. Century) wrote in his commentary on Genesis (page 660):
"From the beginning God has made a covenant with the Messiah and told Him,'My righteous Messiah, those who are entrusted to you, their sins will bring you into a heavy yoke'..And He answered, 'I gladly accept all these agonies in order that not one of Israel should be lost.' Immediately, the Messiah accepted all agonies with love, as it is written: 'He was oppressed and he was afflicted'."

Targum Jonathan ( 4th Century )The Aramaic translation of Isaiah 53, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel, begins with the simple and worthy words:

Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad Iocum)

Zohar: Rabbi Simeon Ben Jochai (2nd Century), "There is in the garden of Eden a palace called : 'The palace of the sons of sickness, this palace the Messiah enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel: they all come and rest upon Him. And were it not that He had thus lightened them off Israel, and taken them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisement for the transgression of the law; this is that which is written, 'Surely our sicknesses he has carried' Isa.53,4).- As they tell Him (the Messiah) of the misery of Israel in their captivity, and of those wicked ones among them who are not attentive to know their Lord, He lifts up His voice and weeps for their wickedness; and so it is written, 'He was wounded for our transgressions' (Isa.53,5), part II, page 212a and III, page 218a, Amsterdam Ed.):