Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Fireinfolding]

Philip not only read from Isaiah, he interpreted it for the Eunuch. That's what Tradition is, giving context to what was written. Hebrews, for what it's worth, was an oral preaching before it was written. We don't even know who wrote it. This tells us that it doesn't so much matter who wrote it, if it speaks the Truth, it's the word of God. Words are spoke as well as written. We don't limit God to just what he inspired to be written, we listen to what he inspired to be spoken as well.

Whatever, Im unwatching the thread

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

a myth that 'Non' Catholics like to spread about because of their hatred for the true church of Christ!

The Catholic church is "the true church of Christ"?? I guess the good Lord forgot to give that news flash to all the other churches He has anointed and raised up . :/ It was the foundational RC church which initially persecuted and killed Peter and the other apostles.

Our Blessed Mother was more than 'Just a Woman!' She is the Mother of Christ!?

I understand it is your opinion to believe Mary is above "all other women", and I'm not trying offend you but my bible says we are not to pray to dead people, and Mary is dead.
Was she chosen by God to give birth to Jesus? - yes and that's wonderful. But she is no more special than anyone else. God uses people IN SPITE of themselves. No one prays to Moses even though he was chosen by God for a certain task.

Again, it's not my intent to upset and offend you, although it seems inevitable when it comes to discussion of such matters... But it's clear to me that these people are indeed placed on pedestals by their followers.

 

[Goatee]

The Catholic church is "the true church of Christ"?? I guess the good Lord forgot to give that news flash to all the other churches He has anointed and raised up . :/ It was the foundational RC church which initially persecuted and killed Peter and the other apostles.

You mean the churches that broke away when they knew that the way was 'Narrow' so started to look for an easier path?

The Catholic church Persecuted and killed Peter and the other Apostles? Where did you pluck that idea from?


I understand it is your opinion to believe Mary is above "all other women", and I'm not trying offend you but my bible says we are not to pray to dead people, and Mary is dead.
Was she chosen by God to give birth to Jesus? - yes and that's wonderful. But she is no more special than anyone else. God uses people IN SPITE of themselves. No one prays to Moses even though he was chosen by God for a certain task.

Mary is the mother of God. Jesus was both Divine and Human. She carried him and gave birth to him. Jesus gave her to us at his crucifixion. She is a million times more special than just an 'ordinary' woman! She is Blessed!

Again, it's not my intent to upset and offend you, although it seems inevitable when it comes to discussion of such matters... But it's clear to me that these people are indeed placed on pedestals by their followers.

Depends which pedestal? Our Blessed Mother deserves to be honoured. She is the mother of all followers of Jesus. Jesus honoured his mother, so should we!

 

[tulipbee]

Actually, according to the very many, if you want to go by numbers.

The elects are numbered

 

[thecolorsblend]

Philip not only read from Isaiah, he interpreted it for the Eunuch. That's what Tradition is, giving context to what was written. Hebrews, for what it's worth, was an oral preaching before it was written. We don't even know who wrote it. This tells us that it doesn't so much matter who wrote it, if it speaks the Truth, it's the word of God. Words are spoke as well as written. We don't limit God to just what he inspired to be written, we listen to what he inspired to be spoken as well.

This is something the Sola Scriptura bunch don't seem to grasp. We live in a world today where the written word carries an influence and level of authority that I daresay outweighs the spoken word. Seeing something in print gives a certain impression of Authority, of Credibility, more than the spoken word does.

But in the ancient world it was totally the opposite! People had some appreciation for the written word on some level but in terms of intellectual endeavors, the spoken word reigned supreme. Lecturers and speakers can be directly questioned, their credentials personally verified, their assertions openly challenged.

The ancients believed that to be the better avenue of intellectual engagement. Whether or not they're right isn't even the point. It's what they believed. And so it's a bit much therefore to think that they would have accepted Sola Scriptura as a doctrine when it played against every intellectual, social and psychological prejudice they had. Heck, St. Paul somewhat alluded to this when he said that he had a stronger mastery of the written word than he did the spoken word. He correctly viewed that as a negative in his ministry!

Christianity was already a hard enough sell in the ancient world. But I daresay it would've been close to impossible to preach all these insane (to the ancients' viewpoint) doctrines AND sell them on accepting the written word rather than the spoken word. It's just too much to believe.

 

[patricius79]

The Catholic church is "the true church of Christ"?? I guess the good Lord forgot to give that news flash to all the other churches He has anointed and raised up . :/ It was the foundational RC church which initially persecuted and killed Peter and the other apostles.

I understand it is your opinion to believe Mary is above "all other women", and I'm not trying offend you but my bible says we are not to pray to dead people, and Mary is dead.
Was she chosen by God to give birth to Jesus? - yes and that's wonderful. But she is no more special than anyone else. .

I think it is extremely wonderful that Mary and the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus, and work together to bring us to Jesus and the Father. But this thread is about the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is not in Scripture, in which the early Church taught primarily by the oral Word.

 

[EinsteinsGirl]

I won't remark much - it's only going to draw out in a big debate about the wrong beliefs in the Catholic church which come from it's very foundation. Let me clarify that I'm not against Catholics. But I am against any spirit or leadership that keeps people bound from what the Word of God truly says. When mere humans are lifted up to a status where they lord over the laity (laity = the people of the church) and dictate to them instead of teaching them how to have a relationship with God for themselves, it is offensive to the Lord.

Our Blessed Mother deserves to be honoured. She is the mother of all followers of Jesus. Jesus honoured his mother, so should we!

It's not wrong to 'honor' God's servants. I honor certain pastors and I honor certain men and women of God who lived selfless lives and did mighty feats for Jesus in the 1940's era. But I do not pray to them.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Tim 2:5
There is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, the Christ who is God and whom died and rose from the dead for remission of all sin. There is no other name we are to pray to.

Anyway, I think we are going off topic so I will quietly remove myself from this thread.
God bless you.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It's not wrong to 'honor' God's servants. I honor certain pastors and I honor certain men and women of God who lived selfless lives and did mighty feats for Jesus in the 1940's era. But I do not pray to them.

Since Mariology interests you, I created a thread in Controversial Theology called Our Lady the Godbearer (or some such) that you might find interesting.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Catholic church is "the true church of Christ"?? I guess the good Lord forgot to give that news flash to all the other churches He has anointed and raised up . :/ It was the foundational RC church which initially persecuted and killed Peter and the other apostles.

The Good Lord only anointed one Church. Nero killed Peter. James was beheaded by the Romans. The Catholic Church recognizes the Apostles as saints, how would they persecute and then kill them?

I understand it is your opinion to believe Mary is above "all other women", and I'm not trying offend you but my bible says we are not to pray to dead people, and Mary is dead.

Mary is not dead, she's alive in heaven. According to Revelation, her body is in heaven as well as her soul.

Was she chosen by God to give birth to Jesus? - yes and that's wonderful. But she is no more special than anyone else. God uses people IN SPITE of themselves. No one prays to Moses even though he was chosen by God for a certain task.

Actually, I don't believe you know your last statement here to be true. Mary is special to God. She's His wife, His mother, and His daughter, all at the same time.

Again, it's not my intent to upset and offend you, although it seems inevitable when it comes to discussion of such matters... But it's clear to me that these people are indeed placed on pedestals by their followers.

They are honored, yes, but so do Americans honor Washington, Lincoln, and so on. They are not worshiped, and neither are 'these people'. Are you saying you don't honor the apostles?

 

[Rick Otto]

The Holy Spirit guides the Church, I'm proud of you for acknowledging that. And I agree, of course.

It was your mistake I acknowledge, but thanks anyway.

 

[Rick Otto]

Again, Mary is not worshiped by anyone in the Catholic faith. That is just a myth that 'Non' Catholics like to spread.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and historyof these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Typical Catholic confusion.

 

[Rick Otto]

That really has nothing to do with anything. The fact is, as I said, the Pope doesn't have the absolute authority Rick seems to believe nor is he worshiped by Catholics... which it sounds like Rick and you both need clarification on.

I don't seem to believe that at all. The point I made that you missed is that power perceived is power achieved.
Try and be more honest.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Catholic church Persecuted and killed Peter and the other Apostles? Where did you pluck that idea from?

Pagan Rome rolled right into papal Rome... who gave the bishop of Rome His seat? Isn't one of the names for the Pope Pontifex Maximus?

Here's a little history to show the true lineage of the Papacy...

The Pontifex Maximus was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian (reigned 375–383) who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title.

The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop. It is not included in the Pope's official titles, but appears on buildings, monuments and coins of popes of Renaissance and modern times.

 

[patricius79]

Pagan Rome rolled right into papal Rome... .

How could the Catholic Church have killed Rock when the Roman Empire wasn't Catholic until the 300s?

In any case, getting back to the topic of this thread, Paul told Timothy to pass on what he had heard from him, and that those people would in turn pass it on to others. 2 Timothy 2:2.

 

[patricius79]

I don't seem to believe that at all. The point I made that you missed is that power perceived is power achieved.
Try and be more honest.

Do you have a problem with all authority figures in the Church?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

How could the Catholic Church have killed Rock when the Roman Empire wasn't Catholic until the 300s?

Either you are being willfully ignorant or you're not reading the posts... I showed you how pagan Rome and papal Rome are two sides of the same coin... both called themselves Pontifex Maximus. Do you think that was a term given the Catholic church by the protestants like you think the term 'Roman' was given to the Catholics? It's because the Catholic church is just pagan Rome part deux... history proves it.

 

[patricius79]

Either you are being willfully ignorant or you're not reading the posts... I showed you how pagan Rome and papal Rome are two sides of the same coin... both called themselves Pontifex Maximus. Do you think that was a term given the Catholic church by the protestants like you think the term 'Roman' was given to the Catholics? It's because the Catholic church is just pagan Rome part deux... history proves it.

I don't follow your logic. How could the Catholic Church have killed Rock when Rome and the Catholic Church weren't working together until the 300s?

As to the title of Pontifex Maximus, I don't know much about that. But if the Church adopts titles or practices from paganism--such as wedding rings (do you wear a wedding ring?)--I don't see how that means that the Church is pagan, just that she accepts what is true and good in paganism.

But the Papacy was already present since Christ built the Church on Simon Rock.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

As to the title of Pontifex Maximus, I don't know much about that.

Don't let facts get in the way of reason...

But if the Church adopts titles or practices from paganism--such as wedding rings (do you wear a wedding ring?)

No I don't... our faith does not condone it because it is pagan.

--I don't see how that mean that the Church is pagan, just that she accept what is true and good in paganism.

What is true and good in paganism? Worship on the day of the sun? Veneration of statues and relics? Pagan festival symbols like the yule log, decorated tree, mistletoe, coloured eggs, rabbits, maypole etc.

Did God teach us to follow the ways of the pagans, or was that what your church told you....

Jeremiah 10:2
Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen,

2 Kings 17:11
And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the Lord carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the Lord to anger:

2 Kings 17:15
And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the Lord had charged them, that they should not do like them.

 

[patricius79]

Don't let facts get in the way of reason...



No I don't... our faith does not condone it because it is pagan.


What is true and good in paganism? Worship on the day of the sun? Veneration of statues and relics? Pagan festival symbols like the yule log, decorated tree, mistletoe, coloured eggs, rabbits, maypole etc.

Did God teach us to follow the ways of the pagans, or was that what your church told you....

Jeremiah 10:2
Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen,

2 Kings 17:11
And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the Lord carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the Lord to anger:

2 Kings 17:15
And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the Lord had charged them, that they should not do like them.

None of those verses say that everything practiced by pagans was wrong.

Paul talks in Scripture about how the pagans were groping after God. Wearing wedding rings as a symbol of love and fidelity is a good thing, and aid to a good marriage.

Do you think that marriage itself was wrong because it was practiced by the pagans?

If you say the Church is pagan, then I guess you would say that the N.T. Canon is pagan, since it is not in the Bible, but came, rather, from Catholic Tradition.

 

[Rick Otto]

Do you have a problem with all authority figures in the Church?

Yikes!
Whatever gave you THAT idea?
I have no problem with Jesus.
People that try to get between me and Him all have a problem.

That question almost sounds like a provocation. It sounded as rude as if I asked you if you were able to have a relationship with Jesus without some church authority giving you permission.