Can we reach a compromise regarding abortion?

[Vicomte13]

Given the long list of exceptions the bible gives to this rule I'm going to guess it is a bit more nuanced then just a blanket "No killing" statement

There is no "long list of exceptions".
There are only two given:
(1) in judgment for breaking God's applicable law (and note well: God's law for the Hebrews applied to Hebrews living in Israel, not the whole world, and most of God's laws for Israel did not carry the death penalty) - the only law of God ever given to Gentiles permitting them to kill was as just punishment of the crime of murder.

(2) As a result of defense against attack. This was only given obliquely, when Jesus told the apostles to buy swords and carry them. The mere visible presence of a sword can also be a deterrent to an attacker, obviating the need for killing.

You will search the Scriptures in vain for other circumstances in which God permitted Gentiles to kill.
Israel was a special case. And God removed Israel from the world long ago.

The only law of God that EVER applied to you and me says: Do Not Kill - except you may shed the blood of those who shed men's blood (though you have to be sure they really did it - because if you're wrong, you're just a killer yourself), and you may carry and use a sword for defense.

That's it. That's all.

We're not Jews, and even if we were, God removed the Temple and the Priesthood. Israel is gone from the world, and the Law of Sinai only ever applied to Jews of the covenant (though it gives us good ideas as to how men think). We're under the Law of Jesus, and HE said to be patient, kind, accept insult, reply to evil with goodness. He did say to his disciples, at the Last Supper, that they could now carry a sword for defense, but he immediately cut them off with an "Enough!" when the zealots among them started to get excited about that. And he warned Peter after Peter actually drew a sword and attacked with it that "He who takes up the sword shall perish by it."

So no, actually, God did not give any "long list of exceptions" to killing. There are only two, and both are in response to somebody else's crime.

Human TRADITION has generated a whole bunch of other exceptions, because the inability to kill means the inability to build strong governments, and men love idols. But all of those other cases of killing are made up by men in service to idols of their own making. God only gave two exceptions - for punishment of killers, and as a result of self-defense.

 

[Vicomte13]

Chapter and verse please. My understanding is death is only prescribed in the case of the death of the mother

Or work on the wrong day.
Or sleep with someone who is betrothed
Or marrying your wifes mother
Prostitution of a priests daughter.
That narrow exception looks pretty wide to me.

Oh yeah, straight forward. Show me chapter and verse of the commandment that prohibits abortion.

Ok. When I get home and have my copy of the Torah handy, I will give you chapter, verse and words.

But the key to the whole thing is "You shall not kill."
The list you gave is a series of punishment for crimes in Israel, recalling that Israel was ruled directly by God from the time of Moses through the judges, with neither King nor Council - all law came directly from God. Prophets were sent from crises. The Israelites did not like this system and eventually clamored for a human king.

Those laws on their very terms only applied to Israel. And the reward for performing them was not eternal life and salvation - those things are never mentioned in the Torah. It was peaceful enjoyment of a farm allotment in the land of Israel, ruled over and protected by God as king.

Those laws never applied to Gentiles like us. For us, there only has ever been: DO NOT KILL, except in just judgment of killers (part of the original law), or in self-defense (implied by Jesus' authorization of the Apostles to buy and carry swords).

 

[Vicomte13]

Define Life. At best, in biology, a zygote is a continuation, not a beginning.

I do not get to define life. Neither do you. God defined "life" as "nephesh". "A living soul" is

It is your opinion that the world is ruled by the Christian God. That is not a view shared by the majority of humanity. It is certainly not a view shared by me.

No, ecco, it is a fact that the world was created, is ruled by, and will ultimately be destroyed by God. That knowledge is not understood by many, including you. You, and they, are wrong.

 

[Belk]

Interesting if it is in there. My understanding is that under Jewish law life begins with the first breath, and that up to the moment of birth priority is to be given to saving the life of the pregnant woman over that of the fetus.

That is my understanding as well. Also the penalty in bible for killing a fetus is pretty minimal.

 

[Vicomte13]

No, it isn't. No one is talking about murdering anyone in this thread.

Yes, it is. Abortion is the premeditated murder of a human being. Everybody on this thread is talking about murder. Some merely are in denial, because they don't think they are advocates for murder. But they are. And someday everybody here - you, me, she, he - all of us will be judged by one single God, who has an opinion on the matter, and who expressed that opinion pretty clearly: by MAKING the baby in the first place, by telling everybody not to kill, and by causing all of the stress and angst that is felt on the subject.

People are willful. Some will stretch forth their hands to take and eat the forbidden fruit. ALL of us stretch forth our hands to eat SOME SORT of forbidden fruit at some point. Everybody who lives past infancy sins.

And so we all die.

The question is whether, after our physical death, as our spirit continues and is one day placed back into our body, resurrected, we find favor with God at final judgment and are permitted to enter the City of God - "Heaven" - or whether we are rejected by God and cast into the Lake of Fire.

God hasn't left it vague. To be accepted by him, you have to do what he said.

"What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not keep my commandments?" - Jesus Christ.

None of us did everything he said. So then the question is: did we ADMIT we were wrong, that we had done wrong? Did we REPENT of the sin - whatever it was - even murder? Did we beg God to forgive us? And, as the price of that forgiveness, did we forgive others their sins against us? If we did, God forgives us and we are acceptable to him, and we pass judgment. God said all of this.

But if we are arrogant in our sins, and refuse to bend our necks to his commandments. If we seek to justify ourselves in our sins, we go unrepentant and unforgiven, to stand before the Judge of all in our insolence. And then he rejects us, and we are thrown into the fire. Case closed.

How do we know? God revealed it. All of it.

So, for awhile we can pretend, if we want to, that God didn't make the baby, that God didn't command us to not kill, that he didn't warn us of the consequences. And we can shout down, outnumber and belittle anybody who tries to remind us that, after all, God DID reveal these things. The Romans certainly shouted down the Christians. The Jews shouted down Jesus.

But then we die. And if we have killed and taught others to kill, and we are unrepentant. Well, we made our choice, and we chose death. Choose life for yourself, which means that you have to leave other lives, including babies' lives, alone.

To abort a baby is to commit murder.

 

[Vicomte13]

But "killer" does not appear on either list. Murder and killing are two different things.

In an English translation they are two different things. But in the Hebrew the word is killing.

And in the Greek, the word used in the Old Testament commandment and the New Testament commandment is the same Greek word.

So in the actual SCRIPTURE (not the faulty translation), the concept being discussed is, in fact, the exact same word, and the same thing.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, it is. Abortion is the premeditated murder of a human being. Everybody on this thread is talking about murder. Some merely are in denial, because they don't think they are advocates for murder. But they are.

No, murder is the illegal killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Abortion does no meet the definition.

 

[Vicomte13]

Also the penalty in bible for killing a fetus is pretty minimal.

It is death. If you hit a woman and cause her to deliver prematurely, if the woman or the baby dies, you die. If injury, you are so injured. If no harm other than the premature delivery, you pay a fine to the husband, and HE determines.

Hitting people such that they prematurely deliver is a very serious offense.
If the baby miscarries as a result and dies, it is death.

 

[Archivist]

In an English translation they are two different things. But in the Hebrew the word is killing.

And in the Greek, the word used in the Old Testament commandment and the New Testament commandment is the same Greek word.

So in the actual SCRIPTURE (not the faulty translation), the concept being discussed is, in fact, the exact same word, and the same thing.

Murder must be illegal and requires malice aforethought. Killing does not.

 

[Vicomte13]

In common English (in legal English, "murder" is defined by statute in each separate jurisdiction, and changes its meanings as one crosses borders). In Scripture the same word is used in the Sinai commandment as in Revelation. Obviously Scripture is not governed by the Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the English language.

 

[Archivist]

In common English (in legal English, "murder" is defined by statute in each separate jurisdiction, and changes its meanings as one crosses borders). In Scripture the same word is used in the Sinai commandment as in Revelation. Obviously Scripture is not governed by the Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the English language.

But murder was a Common Law offense that did not exist i Biblical times.

 

[Vicomte13]

Murder must be illegal and requires malice aforethought. Killing does not.

If God is governed by the English Common Law, perhaps.
But actually, the legal definitions you are using are the playthings of man.
Man is bound by the laws of God, which we cannot change, and by which we will be finally judged.
Those laws are found in Scripture, and in Scripture, God forbids killing, at the time of Noah, and in the Revelation says that killers (same word in the Greek) will be thrown into the fire.

 

[Vicomte13]

But murder was a Common Law offense that did not exist i Biblical times.

English and the Common Law did not exist in Biblical times. Killing - Ratsach - phoneis - they existed since Cain, and God forbade them, and still does.

Our Common Law often departs from the law of God. American abortion law is a good example. We allow killing on demand under Roe. This is forbidden by God's law. When we prefer our own law over God's, we practice idolatry, serving a work of our own hands while eschewing service to God.

The serpent speaks to us in terms we prefer. God said "don't kill or I'll throw you into the fire." That's what he meant.
Abortion is killing, and if you do it, you burn.
If you don't want to burn, don't commit abortion.

 

[Cearbhall]

Which, in practice, means nothing at all. Not if you're willing to shop around until you find a doc who will abort any child so long as the woman says it distresses her to be pregnant.

There are only three doctors in the country who perform late-term abortions...there's no shopping around. And no, they all are required to obtain medical evidence by law. Getting an abortion past viability is not an easy task, rest assured.

The whole thread is about murdering babies. Abortion is the murder of a baby in the womb. That is why no compromise is possible.

Murder is illegal killing. A baby is a human who has been born. Let's use terms properly.

 

[Ratjaws]

exactly , when people feel (made) to do something when they oppose it most...

Ml5363,
By "entire race of people" Loudmouth means a particular group of persons. Today a group of persons is being "terrorized and segregated" via abortion. Yes their civil right-to-life is being violated and so this issue is just as bad as that of slavery. In fact I submit it is even worse for the group of persons who live in their mother's womb because at least slaves had a voice to cry out against their enslavers. A child in the womb has no voice except those of us who are willing to go against the cultural grain that uses anti-life rhetoric as propaganda to support an immoral law protecting "doctors" who murder for a living.

And yes, I agree it is politicians who are "eroding" our "constitutional rights" but the "division" is between constitutional republicans versus liberal progressives. It is these liberals who distort the original intent of the founders stripping away our right-to-life and inherent freedoms, especially those freedoms dealing with the economy and therefore our livelihood. These progressives artificially and maleciously manipulate the value of the dollar and interest rates and allow (encourage) banks to loan money they don't possess to our eventual demise. Economic freedom in reality is one of our most fundamental and valuable freedoms because without our ability to do something useful and profit from that work people cannot stay alive without resorting to theft and murder. Notice the order the founders gave to those fundamental rights: life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (possession of property). Who cares about property if they are not free? ...and who cares about freedom if they are not alive? The point is our basic Christian freedoms are being eroded by these liberally immoral progressives who believe government is the answer to every social and moral problem. Yet the founders believed our form of government would not last without a "moral and religious" people to keep a minimal governing body in check. Forget the rhetoric about compromise and give me back the limited and divided federal branch of government counter balanced with states that retain the full right to govern their people and that supports a free market... and I will bet you we will all live better more profitable lives.

Alcohol prohibition did not work precisely because it violated our freedom to drink what we so desired. Prohibition of abortion will work because that is the correct response to those who chose to murder to solve problems. What else is law for if not to legislate immoral behavior that cannot be controlled by the average citizen. In fact the same people who repeat this rhetoric against legislating morality are the ones who propose we must use the force of government against big business.

Sure we need to "win people's hearts" but that comes through sound education in moral principle... not with this push against a classical education which formed a person's mind and toward an ammoral technical training devoid of a traditional ethical understanding. It's not either hearts or laws but both!

 

[Sammy-San]

Here's my idea-not taking the Bible into consideration that life beings at conception-abortion should only be legal in the very early stages of the first trimester before there is a heartbeat-and maybe then only in rare situations, because it deserves a chance at life. Anybody disagree with that compromise?

 

[Ratjaws]

Thanks Vicomte... I'm fascinated by what you've presented too... I did not know your point on "begat" and it is a valuable piece of info that I think I will plagiarize for future use! Thanks again and keep up the fight for life and faith.

 

[Archivist]

English and the Common Law did not exist in Biblical times.

Nor did Common Law murder.

Our Common Law often departs from the law of God. American abortion law is a good example. We allow killing on demand under Roe. This is forbidden by God's law. When we prefer our own law over God's, we practice idolatry, serving a work of our own hands while eschewing service to God.

Have you actually read the Roe decison?

The serpent speaks to us in terms we prefer. God said "don't kill or I'll throw you into the fire." That's what he meant. Abortion is killing, and if you do it, you burn.

I love the way you keep pointing out the word "killing." The Bible tells us that those whose name is not written in the Book of Life will be thrown in the Lake of Fire. That includes liars, adulters, etc. That's why Jesus died for our sins.

If you don't want to burn, don't commit abortion.

One does not "commit" abortion. One can "perform" an abortion, but not "commit" abortion.

 

[ecco]

That is debatable. Some stats I have seen show that about 25% of the world population self-identify as Christian; with about 30% self identifying as Islamic. Islam claims that the God (allah) they worship is the same as the Christian and Jewish God.

If you accept that as true, then you have about 55% of humanity worshiping the same God.

I don't and I don't think most Christians or Muslims agree on a God

Christians: Jesus is God
Muslims: Jesus is not God

 

[Vicomte13]

There are only three doctors in the country who perform late-term abortions...there's no shopping around. And no, they all are required to obtain medical evidence by law. Getting an abortion past viability is not an easy task, rest assured.

Murder is illegal killing. A baby is a human who has been born. Let's use terms properly.

I am using proper terms.
Legal terms depend entirely on the law in question.
For the purposes of this discussion I am focusing on the only law that ultimately matters: God's, as revealed in Scripture.
There, this distinction between "legal" and "illegal" killing is not made.
God simply prohibits "ratsaq" ("phoneis" in Greek). This term is used throughout the Bible for intentional or reckless killing.

He states one exception for justice: the man who sheds blood - by man must his blood be shed.
So, although the execution of a killer is a ratsaq, an intentional killing, it is permitted by God to punish killers.

Jesus states one implicit exception for self-defense when he admonishes the Apostles to buy swords after his departure.

And that's the law revealed by God for everybody who wasn't a Jew in ancient Israel has: do not kill, except in punishment of killers; and if you have to defend yourself with weapons against attackers, that is ok.

That's the full range of authority to kill that God gives us Gentiles.

So, what are we talking about on this thread? Abortion.

What is abortion? It is the intentional killing of a wholly innocent human being, not in self defense. It is ratsaq in Hebrew, phoneis in Greek.
In English: murder.

I am using the terms correctly. Abortion is murder. Abortion providers are murderers. Women who procure abortions are murderesses.

Our law currently authorizes them to commit murder at will during the first trimester, and limits these murders in the later two. That is the majority opinion in the country. It is evil and should be changed. There can be no moral compromise on infanticide. It the majority wants it, they must be frustrated.

Currently, they win, which means that evil prevails on the matter, for now.
That, in turn, means that the nation is cursed by all of the shedding of innocent blood. We should not expect to have good times going forward.