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Can we reach a compromise regarding abortion?

When should abortion be permitted?

  • Abortion should never be permitted

    Votes: 12 19.7%
  • Permitted, but only to protect the life or health of the pregnant woman

    Votes: 10 16.4%
  • Permitted, but only in cases of life or health of the pregnant woman or rape or incest

    Votes: 6 9.8%
  • Permitted at the descretion of the pregnant woman but only during the first trimester

    Votes: 11 18.0%
  • Permitted at the descretion of the pregnant woman at any tiime during the pregnancy

    Votes: 22 36.1%

  • Total voters
    61
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Albion

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Doing illegal drugs has never been considered a medical treatment.
Doesn't matter. Someone will say it is--and you know that's true.

Then your theory of 'let them do whatever they want' applies.

It's a bad idea, that's for sure, but I'm just going with your own proposal in order to show how shallow it is and how inconsistent you have to be when trying to keep it afloat.
 
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Vicomte13

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Begat means "fathered", but the idea that fathering means a person is a person from the point of conception is all your opinion. What you're doing is called "projection", i.e. you're assuming what you believe is true, is actually true.

No, Armoured, that is not correct. For the count of years of each man's life in the Scriptures begins at his begetting. God inspired the writers to count the years from begetting, not some other time.

The same God told men he knew them from the womb.

Life begins at conception in the Bible, and in Catholic doctrine, and in biology, and in logic.

You're trying to find a way to ignore that, so that you can allow babies to be murdered. You should stop doing that, because in so doing you walk away from God and fact.
 
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Archivist

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You're trying to find a way to ignore that, so that you can allow babies to be murdered.

And, again, no one in this thread is talking about murdering babies.
 
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KCfromNC

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And being dragged to the clinic by their supposedly pro-life parents who would rather ask God for forgiveness for having their grandchild killed than bear the social shame of having an unwed mother in the house.

Zoroaster works in mysterious ways - who are we to question his plan?
 
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ecco

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I realize you directed your post to Archivist, but since you mentioned my name, I'll respond to a few things.
It never ceases to amaze me how anti-life pro-abortion advocates ...
I am pro-abortion but I am not anti-life. I would ban general gun ownership which causes the deaths by murder of over ten thousand Americans yearly.

...like to use the past belief of religious groups when it comes to this issue but any other issue they claim science alone can justify one's position. The quote from wikipedia that Ecco cites, which comes from Catholic scholars, leaves out the very important fact that even with such a belief in ensoulment, that same church considered it immoral to interfere with that life from the moment of conception.

If the church changed its mind about the time of "ensoulment", that is the church's problem. At one time it was quickening, at another it was first breath, at another it was conception. One would think there would be some object biblical truth, but, obviously, there isn't.

Others here state flat out what begins at fertilization is no more human than say a cow! This kind of thinking completely overlooks the fact that both sperm and egg are from human beings and therefore cannot become a cow or any other kind of animal. The life that begins at the moment of conception must either be human or it is never human. It cannot be potentially human as the sperm or egg are precisely because all the genetic material from that moment on is the same right on through till natural death. There is no clear line between fertilization and death of this new life that can be considered a starting point.

A fertilized egg is a single cell called a zygote. A single cell is not a human being.

Of those billions of skin cells, between 30,000 and 40,000 of them fall off every hour. Over a 24-hour period, you lose almost a million skin cells.
By your logic, you are guilty of murdering a million "humans" daily.

With this in mind I will also add that for any act to be moral a three-fold criteria must be met, namely the means, end and intent of the person doing the act must be moral. Combine this with the fact that all human life has an inviolable dignity that comes from God, as the Declaration/Constitution of the United States assume when it speaks of inalienable rights, and you must conclude any good law must protect all human life... from fertilization till natural death. Any law that ignores these facts is immoral and therefore unethical.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

"Inalienable Rights" given to all men, not to a cell.

Now to clarify there is only one kind of abortion that does not violate this criteria. It is called an ectopic pregnancey where, because the newly formed embryonic person attempts to implant on the uteran wall and not the mother's womb, it endangers the mother's life AND therefore it's own life! In this case it is not desirable, if there were another way, but it is morally permissable to interrupt the pregnancy, and thus, most likely, end the life of the newly formed child.

Here you are hedging.

Procured abortion, as given us by the Roe vs. Wade decision in 1973, is especially henious the new person's life can be taken for any reason not serious. Education, job, age, lifestyle, and even because the child is "unwanted" are the usual reasons given that are all secondary to the newly formed person's right to life.
Those who claim this is about a woman's choice are also mistaken because they never link the issue of choice to prior to sexual intercourse where it ultimately belongs. The push for Roe vs. Wade was precisely because of the superfacial reason of separating pleasure from the initiation of new life.

Now we get back to the question raised in the OP - compromise. This is exactly what the secular Supreme Court in our secular nation did. The weighed the pros and cons, they took into consideration the historical concepts, religious and otherwise, of the beginning of human life and they came up with a comprise.

Look at the poll taken in this Christian forum. Less than 1 in 5 believe all abortion should be outlawed. You didn't even like any of the options and came up with one of your own - "If you had a "life of the mother only" option then I could pick that."


This is also driven by sterilization an contraception that insist "unwanted" children must be prevented... that is separated from the sexual act that should be open to new life as God intended. In other words the mindset behind sterilization and contraception drives abortion because neither method is foolproof and abortion must be used as a backup. If a man or woman don't want children then they simply refrain from sexual intercourse. Once they decide to partake of this act they must be open to the possibility of new life because that is the acts nature. New human life comes in no other way and to try to interrupt and separate the two is to move against God who gave human sexuality its nature. It is to sin in Christian terms. It is to disorder an act that has as its primary goal a two-fold meaning: love and life. This is to unite a man and woman and to create new human life according to God's will.

Your continued references to god remind me that I am fortunate that I do not live in a Theocracy.
 
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KCfromNC

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He did mention it directly: you shall not kill. He always speaks of babies in the womb as persons

Not true. The punishment for causing an unintentional miscarriage is different than causing harm to a living person. So now we're stuck interpreting how to apply that to cases where the women wants an abortion, but it seems hard to imagine that would suddenly change the fetus from property into a living person.
 
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KCfromNC

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Of course you first must understand God is the Author of life and can take it whenever he wants.

Seems like if that is true, it would be moral for parents to take any life they "authored" as well. At least if you believe in applying moral rules consistently rather than falling prey to moral relativism.
 
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Dave-W

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Archivist

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I have -several times.

We had several compromises that were supposed to have solved the issue of slavery--the 3/5 Compromise, the Missouri Compromise, the Compromise of 1850. None solved the issue--the dispute remained and worsened, resulting in succession and war. I'm not sure that Roe could be called a compromise.

I personally agree with the Roe decision which allowed abortion access during the first trimester, allowed some reasonable state regulation to protect the life and health of the pregnant woman during the second trimester and allowed the state to regulate, or even proscribe abortion as long as the life and health of the pregnant woamn was protected during the third trimester. Unfortunately, those who oppose abortion in any circumstances or only to protect the life of the pregnant woman certainly do not see Roe as a compromise.
 
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Dave-W

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Unfortunately, those who oppose abortion in any circumstances or only to protect the life of the pregnant woman certainly do not see Roe as a compromise.
True. And most supporters of "choice" today see Roe as way too restrictive.

I guess that fits the definition of a good compromise - one that leaves everyone equally unhappy.
 
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Vicomte13

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In any case, we do not live in a Christian Theocracy, so I guess your argument is pointless.

In any case, we do live in a world ruled by God, and when we die we go before God to be judged. And God already told us - in the same book that he told us life begins at conception - that killers are thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

So, you can kill babies and take your chances, or you can do the right thing and not have to worry about it.
 
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Archivist

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True. And most supporters of "choice" today see Roe as way too restrictive.

I disagree. I think most people who call themselves pro-choice agree with Roe--the current Gallop poll show that 51% of Americans think that abortion should be legal undercertain circumstances, which would be in line with the Roe decision. http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx According to the poll 29% do think that abortion should be legal under any circumstances, but that is not the majority view.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.
 
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Archivist

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In any case, we do live in a world ruled by God, and when we die we go before God to be judged. And God already told us - in the same book that he told us life begins at conception - that killers are thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

Scripture tells me that "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." I don't see anything saying that "killers" are thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment.
 
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Belk

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He did mention it directly: you shall not kill.

Given the long list of exceptions the bible gives to this rule I'm going to guess it is a bit more nuanced then just a blanket "No killing" statement

He always speaks of babies in the womb as persons - saying that he knew us when we were in the womb, telling us how John the Baptist leapt for joy in his mother's womb when brought into the presence of Jesus in his mother's womb, prescribing the death penalty for the man who, in a fight with another man, strikes a pregnant woman causing premature birth in which the baby or the mother are killed.

Chapter and verse please. My understanding is death is only prescribed in the case of the death of the mother

God set one general rule prohibiting man from killing man, and then made a narrow generic exception for the execution of those who kill other men.

Or work on the wrong day.
Or sleep with someone who is betrothed
Or marrying your wifes mother
Prostitution of a priests daughter.
That narrow exception looks pretty wide to me.


Jesus told his apostles to arm themselves with swords for their protection, but warned them against taking up the sword. Within the boundaries of his kingdom of ancient Israel, God imposed the death penalty for other crimes, but God obliterated ancient Israel.


The case of unborn babies is very straightforward: they come into being when begotten, God knows them, and men are prohibited from killing other men except those adjudicated guilty of capital crimes - which babies cannot be for they are wholly innocent.

It's clear as day, really.
Oh yeah, straight forward. Show me chapter and verse of the commandment that prohibits abortion.
 
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ecco

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...Life begins at conception in the Bible,
Vaguely. So vaguely that Christian doctrine has vacillated over the Centuries as to when life begins.
and in Catholic doctrine,
Vaguely. So vaguely that Christian doctrine has vacillated of the Centuries as to when life begins.
and in biology,
Define Life. At best, in biology, a zygote is a continuation, not a beginning.
and in logic.
See all the above.
 
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Belk

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Belk,
Reading your reply to Vicomte it would seem you have an unclear idea of the biblical passage you so loosely quote. I believe it refers to the probition of work on the Sabbath? Of course you first must understand God is the Author of life and can take it whenever he wants. So if he told the Jews of old testament times to kill those who violate one of the laws he gave there is nothing wrong with this. In fact they (and implied is God here) only take the persons bodily life. Their soul goes on into eternity where it will be reunited with their body therefore God is really not taking life in the ultimate sense. The point being God creates therefore God can destroy even if in this case he is not really destroying. The point of the law was to teach them and us that the Sabbath is holy and should be kept with proper respect.

All of which is irrelevant to my point.

Now today none of us have been commanded to kill Sabbath breakers and if we try to say we were told to do so by God, we violate public revelation which takes prescidence over private. This is what the same Church that gave us those scriptures teaches and is what you don't seem to know.

In relation to abortion again God is the Author of life and as such makes it plain in scripture and Church teaching that abortion is unjust. As such we cannot justify the law for procured abortion today. It is an evil that goes against God's will and our government which was put into place by God (he allows it) is irresponsible for the Roe vs. Wade decision back in 1973. Until that law is changed to reflect the moral reality of abortion Americans will be cursed. I suspect the unrest we experience in our society and politics today will become worse unless we outlaw abortion. This country even though founded on good principles that protect human life, liberty and property, need not continue it's existence if we continue to elect immoral politicians who play fast and loose with the most vunerable human lives.


Oh he does! Very good Chapter and verse where he prohibits abortion please.
 
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Archivist

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Oh he does! Very good Chapter and verse where he prohibits abortion please.

Interesting if it is in there. My understanding is that under Jewish law life begins with the first breath, and that up to the moment of birth priority is to be given to saving the life of the pregnant woman over that of the fetus.
 
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ecco

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True. And most supporters of "choice" today see Roe as way too restrictive.

I guess that fits the definition of a good compromise - one that leaves everyone equally unhappy.
I don't think everyone is equally unhappy. I think that many believe Roe v Wade is a good thing.

In the poll, options 2-4 with about 45%, reflect the general concepts of Roe v Wade. I voted for number 5.

On the other hand, can you define a ruling/law/view that would have been better in terms of not leaving "everyone equally unhappy"?
 
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