Muslims and God

[Kristos]

This was reported by no less a man than St. John of Damascus. And other accounts suggest that Mohammed did meet with a Nestorian monk. It eould be fairly easy to degenerate from Nestorianism into non-Trinitarianism for the uninitiated given the week coupling of the two qname of the Lord in Nestorian Christology, particularly if the monk was not particularly competent in theological exposition.



Islam is actually as close to Orthodoxy, closer even, than some of the more extreme Gnostic heresies, which rejected the OT and had alternative NTs. Islamic accounts of the passion of our Lord, or rather, in their view, the lack thereof, resemble to a degree thr account found, if memory serves, in the Gospel of Philip.

The view that Islam is a heretical, degenerate form of Christianity is not recent; St. John of Damascus classified it as such.

Regardless, this story has little credence because even a Nestorian monk would believe in repentance and redemption - they would believe this is necessary due to the fall. These very basic ideas are absent from Islam. There is no fall, therefore there is no redemption - God predestines all and this is our fate. Heaven is not a place of eternal communion with God, it is a place of carnal pleasure. It's really not very important either way I suppose to the Christian side - but it is important to the Islamic side because it established some legitimacy for Mohamed as a prophet.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

\
The view that Islam is a heretical, degenerate form of Christianity is not recent; St. John of Damascus classified it as such.

A number of others throughout history have as well, as dialogue has been crucial in realizing that and seeing how even in Islam there were ALWAYS camps claiming that Jesus was God...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You are aware by the way that the specific position of the Oriental Orthodox church, doctrinally speaking, and indeed of the Eastern Orthodox, is that Nestorius was a vile heretic?

We already have it where historically Nestorius agreed that the concept associated with him was something to be condemned even though he disagreed with it - as seen when he said in the Bazaar that “The goal of my earnest wish, then, is that God may be blessed on earth as in heaven. But as for Nestorius, let him be anathema… And would to God that all men by anathematizing me might attain to a reconciliation with God; for to me there is nothing greater or more precious than this” ....but of course, Nestorius was very clear that he agreed with others even in misunderstanding what He said when they went against a concept he did not stand for.

And this gets complicated the more one investigates how much stances were made that don't represent who someone was really. We see how the Assyrian Church of the East has been called "Nestorian" and condemned for somehow supporting Nestorianism when that's not true (and thank heavens for others from that world involved in Orthodoxy who can help to bridge the gap, such as East Meets East: Chalcedon in the Assyrian Church). For in regards to what has often been said by both the EO and the OO when speaking against others, the Assyrian Church of the East is not Nestorian, rather that Nestorius was a follower of the Theodore and Diodorus (although the "two sons" theory proposed by Diodore is rejected by both Theodore of Mopsuestia and Nestorius). In the 5th century, the Church of the East gravitated towards the radical Antiochene form of Christology that had been articulated by Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was much, much more adept than Nestorius (who tended to over-react to things) and who is the best known representative of the middle School of Antioch of hermeneutics (more shared in his Commentary on the Nicene Creed). There are excellent books on the issue that really bring the issue home - as seen in the book entitled Christianity in Iraq: Its Origins and Development to the Present Day by Suha Rassam...a well known scholar in the Orthodox world (as well as Catholic).

​

Although the politics behind the reject of Theodore of Mopsuestia were particularly bad. Recent discussions with the Oriental Orthodox reflect a better attitude.

In regards to Theodore and Dicourus, of course, incidently, they are rejected by the Eastern Orthodox - their writings are condemned by the 5th ecumenical council, even though others have noted how interesting it was that Theodore of Mopsuestia was condemned posthumously to appease the Cyrillians, a highly controversial act. Other EO have gone back in dialogues and brought to light the fact that both of those individuals were saints in their era and that is not a small issue - and when it comes to linkage, it is highly odd whenever others try to reference Saints such as St.Isaac of Nineveh and yet ignore both Issac and Isaac's Church's devotion to Theodore of Mopsuestia (more here).

But if following Theodore of Mopsuestia you end up theologically agreeing with Nestorius (even while not being as outlandish as Nestorius) - as Nestorius largely repeats Theodore's theology with regards to the Incarnation. Moreover, the Coptic Christology has its origins in Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria, and the Eastern Orthodox Christology bases itself primarily on those same two saints, as well as on the "middle road" outlined by St. Leo the Great and upheld at Chalcedon (even though Nestorius actually agreed with the Tome of St. Leo and noted it). Ultimately, as all of those theologians and hierarchs sought to hold their theology consistent with the Gospel as it was recieved, no appeal to antiquity on the particular language of the formula for the Incarnation will work for either side. Rather, as another noted best, it is only in the implications of our specific language that any possible persuasion can take place.

Others who have done an excellent job covering the issue come to mind such as the Greek priest, Fr. John Romanides (and to be clear, a sampling of Fr. John Romanides’ works can be found here at the Romanity.org website). It is not a new revelation that Nestorius is documented to have believed the Tome of Leo - and Fr. Romanides stated that St. Leo the Great of Rome and Dioscorus of Alexandria are Orthodox - as seen here when he says the followng:

“What we are here concerned with is the evidence already presented by this writer as far back as 1959-60 and especially 1964 that both Leo and Dioscoros are Orthodox because they agree with St. Cyril Of Alexandria, especially with his Twelve Chapters, even though both had been considered heretical by the other side here represented.”​

For reference:

• Discussion about Father John Romanides' Paper “One
  Physis or Hypostasis of God the Logos Incarnate” - Orthodox Unity/Orthodox Joint Comission
• highlights in the debate over theodore of mopsuestia's ...
• 
  ...
• 
  Coptic Interpretations of the Fourth Ecumenical Council
• st. cyril's "one physis or hypostasis of god the ... - Romanity
• The Basis of the Acceptance of the Tome of Leo - Mystagogy

Sergius Bulgakov (well known Orthodox scholar) pointed out how it's not surprising that Nestorius declared himself to be in full agreement with the Tome of Leo the Great, just as he would have declared full agreement with the Council of Chalcedon if he had lived to see it
Although Nestorius was invited to the council of Chalcedon, he died before he could attend. and there are many modern scholars believing that he was to be rehabilitated at Chalcedon, as the Leonine/Theodorean Christology was to become the official Christology and unity would be restored to the Church as it returned to its pre-Ephesine state (as goes the previous goal). But the Tome of Leo shifted a lot of things..

And to be clear, there are several scholars/theologians with the OO who have already noted work with the Assyrian Church of the East and do not revile Nestorius. They condemn Nestorianism but it has been long discussed where what Nestorius actually taught was NOT Nestorianism (condemned later in regards to doctrinal concept and rightly so). That is not a new reality when keeping up with either the OO or EO world. Disagreeing is of no consequence to the discussions occurring - just as it has been the case with others in the EO world not being aware of where several Bishops have NOT condemned Islam even though others seek to say differently - and this has been said to you before in no uncertain terms (as noted HERE and here in Sep 29, 2015#72 and elsewhere in Dec 5, 2015#25 and Dec 3, 2015#19 with the Ecunemical work done).

But that is a discussion for another time. As it concerns the main subject, the work of others from the Assyrian Church of the East and those understanding what Nestorius actually taught was influential in witnessing to Muslims within the Islamic world is highly extensive....especially as it concerns the Mongols. And this has been noted before by both EO and OO scholars as well as others who understand the world of the Near East - as stated more in-depth here:

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The monk from Parthia in China during the 2nd century who spread Christian elements in Pure Land Buddhism (since Nestorian Christianity was already present)but it is but one fact among many others

And For further reference, as said best in
Assyrian Christian Influences on Early Japanese Buddhism:

Turns out that in 782 an Indian Buddhist monk named Prajna came to the Chinese imperial capital Chang'an. He carried with him a collection of Sanskrit Buddhist texts. He found an unlikely collaborator in doing his translations in the person of a Nestorian bishop, Adam. The two embarked on a twenty year long project. The results of their efforts was a seven volume collection of the Buddhas' teachings.

Near the end of their project Saicho and Kukai, two Japanese Buddhist monks arrived in quest of Buddhist texts. And they returned to Japan with the seven volume anthology. Kukai would become the founder of the Shingon school while Saicho would establish the Tendai school, from which both the Japanese Shin or Pure Land and the Zen schools would emerge.

Several scholars have speculated on the degree to which Bishop Adam's syncretic Nestorian Christianity seeped into those Chinese texts, and from there to consider to what degree Christian spirituality, if an eccentric version, could have influenced the formation of four different schools of Japanese Buddhism.

Editor's note: see the following books on the Assyrian Church of the East missionary activity in Mongolia, China, Korea, Japan and the Phillipines:


​

• 
  
  
  • • By Foot To China: Mission of The Church of the East, to 1400
    • The Monks of Kublai Khan
    • History of Christianity in Asia: Volume One, Beginnings to 1500; Samuel Moffet; Harper Collins; 1994.

​

A restoration of the original silk painting of a missionary bishop of the Church of the East, now in the British Museum, London, discovered by Sir Aurel Stein at Tun-huang, western China, in 1908. It had been found, along with many manuscripts including some Christian ones, in a cave sealed in 1036. This restoration was painted by Robert MacGregor.​

And as said before, besides that, on Christian influence on Early Buddhism, there are several other scholars speaking on the historical background of where Christianity influenced Pure Land Buddhism in its development:

• 
  
  
  • "Part 1, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 1 "

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  • Part 2, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 2 "

• 
  
  
  • "

The other presentation I found to be highly excellent was entitled Object No. 14: The 'Nestorian Stone' or Church of the East Stele

It was presented by Martin Palmer, who wrote a book entitled "The Jesus Sutras" - more discussed in #17 as well as elsewhere in The Jesus Sutras (Part 1): Introduction | The Jesus Question and Sutras | Search Results | The Jesus Question​

But on the video presentation by Palmer, for a brief description:

With our penultimate object, Martin Palmer takes us back many centuries to consider what is normally seen as a very modern phenomenon: Christianity in China. The object is the Church of the East stele - also known as the Nestorian Stone. Dated 781 AD it tells the story of the arrival and spread of Christianity in China in beautiful Chinese poetry and includes a fascinating version of the Gospel working with Christian, Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian imagery and terminology. In terms of Christian history, the Stele is deeply significant. It conveys a form of Christianity that taught Original Goodness not Original Sin. It was a non-power based form of early Christianity unlike the Roman Empire and Christianity and as such offered a completely different way of being Christian; it had women ministers, was largely vegetarian and refused to own slaves - unlike, for example, Buddhist monasteries in China. The Stele also has the best preserved texts from the Church of the East, which from the 5th century to the 13th century was two to three times bigger in terms of numbers than the Church of the West and spread at its height from present day Iraq through Iran, the Arabian Peninsula, East Africa, Iran, the Central Steppes, Afghanistan, India, China, Mongolia to Japan and Korea. Yet, its history is almost unknown in the West. Martin Palmer will explore the Stele's history, its theology and the radical challenge it presents to how we think about Christianity. Martin discovered the only remaining building from the Church of the East, built in 650 AD, and this is now to be the centre-piece of a new Chinese-Government funded 'Museum of Christianity in China' to open in three years at a cost of roughly £110 million. Martin will explore why the Stele, and this building, are of such significance to contemporary China.​

Object No. 14: The 'Nestorian Stone' or Church of the East Stele - presented by Martin Palmer - YouTube​

And of course, if wanting to know more, one can go to Nestorian - Adventism in China or Four Historical Stages of the Indigenization of Chinese Christian Art : OMHKSEA

Some of the things she noted are echoed by Dr. Martin Palmer in what he has noted on Nestorian Steele (as mentioned earlier):

Moreover, as it concerns Prince Shōtoku Taishi (the First Great Patron of Buddhism in Japan and Imperial Regent of Japan in Early 7th Century) and
his Contribution to Buddhism in Japan, I appreciate what another noted in their review entitled Prince Shotoku and Ancient Christianity (by Arimasa Kubo ):

A history book records that in 578 AD Mar Celghis , a Nestorian, and his family came from a “western land” to China and settled at Lintao, a about 500 km west of Changan. That is to say that Nestorians already came to China more before 600 AD. Professor Sakae Ikeda of Kyoto University, who is a Nestorian scholar and also a Hata family scholar writes a Nestorian named Mar Toma served Prince Shotoku at his side around 600 AD. Mar Toma means “Master Thomas” in Aramaic, and is the same name as Apostle Thomas. He was believed to be a leader of the Nestorians who came to Japan at the time of Prince Shotoku. So, Christianity was already in Japan at the time of Prince Shotoku. I believe it came to Japan earlier than this. There is a proof that leads us to believe it came no later than the fourth century. ....There are many myth associated with who Prince Shotuku really like. However, after several hundred years after Prince Shotoku passed away, adoration for Prince Shotoku swelled to bear many legends regarding him. And strangely enough, we see evidences of the stories of Nestorian amd the Anciient Christianity believed by the Hatas might have been appropriated into the legends of Prince Shotoku. Prince Shotoku is said to be the “Savior Bodhisattva” who was born in a stable. That is to say that he was a kind of savior. Prince Shotoku was called “Prince Umayado (Stable),” Umayado means a stable....It is normally considered derogatory to use a word such as “stable” in calling a person of noble birth and it should be avoided. However, the “Prince Umayado (Stable) was used as an honorific title. Dr. Kunitake Kume speculates that the Christian story that “Mary born Christ in a stable” was incorporated into Prince Shotoku’s legends. There are no one but two: Jesus and Prince Shotoku who were born in a stable among the saints in the world. That is not all. In fact the story of the birth of Prince Shotoku and that of the birth of Jesus Christ are in reality are very similar to the details of sequence of the stories. The author of “Buddhism and Nestorianism in the Japanese History,” Akinori Tomiyama, states as follows: “In mid .Heian era, at the time Michizane Sugahara was watching the moon in exile, there are evidences that intellectuals in Kyoto were reading the ‘Book of Luke’ (the Gospel according to Luke). It can be proven indirectly by ‘Legends and the Record of Prince Shotoku’ (917) which was believed to be written by Kanesuke Fujiwara. That is to say that there the birth story of Jesus, the ‘Book of Luke’ 1:26~2:21 is written exactly in the same sequence as the birth story of Prince Shotoku.” So, he describes it in details. Also, when you look at the legends concerning Prince Shotoku, we notice there are many other stories that remind us of the Biblical story. According to a legend, the “Savior Bodhisattva” appeared in the dream of Empress Kanjin, mother of Prince Shotoku, and prophesied the birth of Prince Shotoku. Similarly in the Bible, an archiangel Gabriel appeared in front of Mary and foretold the birth of Jesus. The other legend says that Saint Nichira, a Paekche, worshipped Prince Shotoku calling him the “Savior Bodhisattva.” But as it turned out, he was later assassinated. This indeed remind us of a story in the Bible that John the Baptist worshipped Jesus calling him the “Savior” but later he was assassinated.....

Masanori Tomiyama also writes as follows: In the “Book of Daigo ‘Legends and the Record of Prince Shotoku’ (13th Century) not only contains the resurrection story of Prince Shotoku, but the composition of the whole book appears to have copied after the “Book of John.” This gives a credence to the fact that an entire translation not an abridged version of the Bible might have been available in Japan.” That is to say that the story of resurrection of Christ in the “Gospel According to John” might had been incorporated into the legend of Prince Shotoku. Regarding the other legends of Prince Shotoku, he writes as follows: “For example, as something to remind us of the ‘Book of Matthew’ 25:34 and thereafter, there is a story of Prince giving the clothing and food to a starved at Mount Kataoka. Subsequent to the event, the starved man died and buried, but he resurrected several days later and only his clothing was said to be left on his coffin. This story from the ‘Chronicles of the Japan’ reminds us of the same vein of thought as the ‘Book of John’ 20:1~10.” Jesus taught us that if anyone gives food and clothing to a starved, he will be included in salvation; it is same as giving them to Christ himself. Also, the Bible says that when Christ died, buried, and after he resurrected only his clothing was left at his tomb. Prince Shotoku is also respected as the “founder of carpentry” and treated as the “protector of carpenters.” Among the carpenter there is even a “Guild of Prince.” Similarly, Jesus’ profession was carpenter. Shinran and Nestorian Philosophy As you can see legends about Prince Shotoku in later periods include many of those that were Christian origins. This is due to the fact that there were people who spread the story of Christ from the ancient times in Japan. Christianity came to Japan in early days of Japan. Its thinking was incorporated, or in protest to it, there were people who tried to make Prince Shotoku the Messiah. Perhaps, this was a reason behind the legend of Prince Shotoku among the people. Later, the founder of the True Pure Land sect of Buddhism, Shinran, made 115 hymns of Japanese translation of praise entitled, ‘Praise of the Great King Asan Prince Shotoku.’ Prince Shotoku who is recited there is the exact Japanese translation of ‘Legends and the Record of Prince Shotoku’ by Kanesuke Sugawara. “Christ”, who was hidden there, must have given great influence upon the faith formation of Shinran......

....Prince Shotoku built the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji (Four Devas) temple in Osaka. There was the welfare facility called “Shiko-in” attached to it. They are four institutions: “Seyaku-in” (pharmacy where free dispensation of medicine is available), “Ryobyo-in” (free hospital, clinic), “Hiden-in” (Sanctuary for those with no relatives), and “Keiden-in” (Sanctuary of religious, arts, and music studies). Prince Shotoku was the first one to begin the large scale social works, philanthropic, welfare works in Japan. Japanese Buddhist scholars praise Prince Shotoku for starting these philanthropic welfare works first in Japan that were heretofore not practiced by Buddhists in China nor in the Korean Peninsula in those days. However, these did not come from the Buddhist philosophy. Observing China and the Korean Peninsula of those days, their Buddhism was a guardian Buddhism for the state; it was far apart from salvation of individuals. You may think Mahayana Buddhism has the philosophy of “mercy.” But Buddhist scholars state that the philosophy of mercy was not implemented as a pragmatic work in ancient China nor in the Korean Peninsula. As it turned out that these facilities such as “Keiden-in,” “Seyaku-in,” “Ryobyo-in,” and “Hiden-in” are identical to those built by Nestorians all over the Silk Road. Nestorians built many facilities like these in Mongol and China. They worked unselfishly by building free schools, pharmacies, sanatoriums, orphanages, and hospitals ...They did not only preach the Gospel, but they also stressed philanthropic and welfare works. Due to their work, their Nestorianism penetrated into people early on.

....Why did Prince Shotoku carry on the works of the Nestorians in Japan? It is because there were Nestorians by the side of Prince Shotoku. And their advice influenced greatly Prince Shotoku. Professor Sakae Ikeda of Kyoto University writes that the first person who built an orphanage in Japan was a Nestorian named Raka. A Legend of Prince Shotoku: Borrowing from the story of Aaron’s staff [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji, to which Prince Shotoku built “Keiden-in,” “Seyaku-in,” “Ryobyo-in,” and “Hiden-in” nearby, is now a Buddhist temple. However, this temple has a remarkable feature that cannot be seen at a normal temple. The entrance to this temple is no other than the great torii (gateway) of a Shinto shrine. Moreover, the torii was there since the time of Prince Shotoku. Though, it was made of wood at the time of Prince Shotoku not a present stone built. When I asked a Buddhist priest about the temple, he replied: “Once upon a time, since Prince Shotoku prayed to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno before battles this temple was built.” But, there is “Tamatsukuri Inari (god of harvest) Shrine” immediately nearby. According to the shrine history, Prince Shotoku prayed not to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno but to a god of the shrine. Here, too, we see an evidence of the Buddhist fabricating the history. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji temple used to be a Shinto shrine. Also, according to the shrine history of Tamatsukuri Inari Shrine, Prince Shotoku made a pilgrimage to the shrine before battles and prayed as follows: “If we are to win this battle, let a bud grow on this branch.” And he inserted a chestnut branch. Then, it is said that it sprouted a bud. That was a sign that a god was with him. This story, too, is very similar to the story of “a bud sprouted on the High Priest Aaron’s staff” of the Old Testament isn’t it? It was a sign that God was with Aaron. (Numbers 17: 5~8)Why did Prince Shotoku carry on the works of the Nestorians in Japan? It is because there were Nestorians by the side of Prince Shotoku. And their advice influenced greatly Prince Shotoku. Professor Sakae Ikeda of Kyoto University writes that the first person who built an orphanage in Japan was a Nestorian named Raka. A Legend of Prince Shotoku: Borrowing from the story of Aaron’s staff [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji, to which Prince Shotoku built “Keiden-in,” “Seyaku-in,” “Ryobyo-in,” and “Hiden-in” nearby, is now a Buddhist temple. However, this temple has a remarkable feature that cannot be seen at a normal temple. The entrance to this temple is no other than the great torii (gateway) of a Shinto shrine. Moreover, the torii was there since the time of Prince Shotoku. Though, it was made of wood at the time of Prince Shotoku not a present stone built. When I asked a Buddhist priest about the temple, he replied: “Once upon a time, since Prince Shotoku prayed to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno before battles this temple was built.” But, there is “Tamatsukuri Inari (god of harvest) Shrine” immediately nearby. According to the shrine history, Prince Shotoku prayed not to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno but to a god of the shrine. Here, too, we see an evidence of the Buddhist fabricating the history. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji temple used to be a Shinto shrine. Also, according to the shrine history of Tamatsukuri Inari Shrine, Prince Shotoku made a pilgrimage to the shrine before battles and prayed as follows: “If we are to win this battle, let a bud grow on this branch.” And he inserted a chestnut branch. Then, it is said that it sprouted a bud. That was a sign that a god was with him. This story, too, is very similar to the story of “a bud sprouted on the High Priest Aaron’s staff” of the Old Testament isn’t it? It was a sign that God was with Aaron. (Numbers 17: 5~8)...

....I stated that there were many Christians such as Nestorians, the Hatas (ancient Christians who came from the Central Aaia) around Prince Shotoku, and under their influence he started the philanthropic and welfare work. In the world, Prince Shotoku is generally considered as the “central figure of the Japanese Buddhism” and is responsible for spreading Buddhism in Japan. In conclusion, I believe it is mistaken. Prince Shotoku, in fact, had the same philosophy and religion (Christian Shintoism) as the Hatas. But Buddhism later became a kind of Japanese “national religion” and began to rule Japan autocratically. At that time, Prince Shotoku was given a new identity as the “central figure of Japanese Buddhism” and the “great contributor to Buddhism.” Firstly, the whole family and relatives of Prince Shotoku were murdered by Buddhists. Had Prince Shotoku been the central figure of Buddhism, why did Buddhists murder his whole family and relatives? Also, Prince Shotoku himself appears to be assassinated. Since Prince Shotoku, in those days, held the position next to the emperor, it was natural to spend several months of “mogari,” a ceremony for the repose of the soul. However, the record shows little or no period of “mogari” for Prince Shotoku. It appears that he was buried immediately. It was same in the case of Emperor Sushun who was murdered by Buddhists. He, too, was buried immediately without having a period of “mogari.” In order to appease a vengiful spirit, set himself up as a great person In those days, there was a belief system among the people that when an innocent was murdered he would become a “vengeful spirit.” So, it was necessary to quickly put the lid on the coffin and seal it. Also, in those days, there was a thought that the best way to appease the vengeful spirit was to set himself up as a great person. They thought if a person was thanked and adored as a great individual even a vengeful spirit would be appeased. So, for those who murdered Prince Shotoku, the quickest and easies way to protect themselves from the vengeful spirit was to set himself as a great person. That is to set Prince Shotoku as the “central figure of Japanese Buddhism” and the “great contributor to Buddhism” and have people venerate him. They thought that by doing so the vengeful spirit would be appeased and Buddhism would spread. For them it was two birds with one stone solution. I do not have enough space here to write about this in detail. I recommend for those who are interested to read the “Sealed Ancient History of Japanese and Jewish 2, Volume of Buddhism and Nestorianism."...

....Prince Shotoku went after his demise to “Tenju-koku” = heaven Back in 16th century, during the Azuchi Momoyama period, Ujisato Gamau (1556~95), the lord of Aizu, became Christian as a result of missionary work of Ukon Takayama. He was a Christian lord with the baptized name of Leo, but the Buddhist world of Aizu advertised his as an ardent Buddhist. When the Buddhist influence becomes strong, all the past great men become the great contributors to Buddhism. It has been repeated many times in Japanese history. So, we believe that Prince Shotoku’s case was no exception. After the demise of Prince Shotoku, an embroidery picture that depicts the “Tenju-koku” where the Prince went still exists at the Chugu-ji temple in Nara. This was embroidered by Kuma Hata who was commissioned by Princess Taratsume Tachibana thinking of the Prince. It is the picture called the “Tenju-koku Mandara (Mandala) Shuchomei.” If you look at it, it is obvious that the concept of Paradise other than Buddhism coexists. Masanori Tomiyama, who studied this aspect, writes, “I believe that the ’Tenju-koku Mandara Shuchomei’ undoubtedly means heaven of Jesus.” “’Tenju-koku’ where Prince Shotoku died and went to is the oldest concept of Paradise in Japan. This “Tenju-koku” or “Heaven” probably influenced the Pure Land concept of later Japanese Buddhism....

....Prince Shotoku himself was a man who must have 5 had a thought of this “Tenju-koku.” Also, there is a shrine called “Kamei-doh” at the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]enno-ji temple built by Prince Shotoku. It existed since the time of Prince Shotoku. The faith that is practiced there is very similar to that of the faith of the Bethesda Pond (if you enter the pond while water is being stirred, you will be healed)....Prince Shotoku is a central figure who convinced many Japanese that “Japan is a Buddhist nation.” However, upon careful investigation, Prince Shotoku was more involved in Christianity rather than Buddhism. Later when Buddhism controlled Japan like the national religion, the real image of Prince Shotoku was buried forever. Then, he became the “central figure of Japanese Buddhism.” Nevertheless, we should find the truth in the important part of the Japanese history. Christianity is never a new religion that came recently to Japan or a western religion. It is the most precious faith that our ancestors also believed.​

Additionally, as another noted wisely from one prominent Buddhist resource:

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THE JESUS SUTRAS
Some Early Morning Thoughts on What Might Have Been and Perhaps What Could Yet Be

James Ishmael Ford

11 January 2015

First Unitarian Church
Providence, Rhode Island

Text

Compassionate Father, Radiant Son,
Pure Wind King – three in one.

Supreme King, Will of Ages,
Compassionate joyous lamb
Loving all who suffer
Fearless as you strive for us
Free us of the karma of our lives
Bring us back to our original nature
Delivered from all danger.

Great Teacher: I stand in awe of the Father
Great Teacher: I am awed by the Holy Lord
Great Teacher: I am speechless before the King of Dharma
Great Teacher: I am dazzled by the Enlightened Mind
Great Teacher: You who do everything to save us.

Praise of the Three Sacred Powers

Okay, I’m a sucker for those historical “what if” kind of things. You know, what if the Spanish Armada defeated the English, or what if the South had won the Civil War, or the Nazi’s the Second World War. Decades later, I’m still haunted from reading Philip K. Dick’s The Man in the High Castle about that last what if. People have been telling me for years I have to read Kim Stanley Robinson’s The Years of Rice and Salt, where the plague takes away ninety nine percent of Europe’s population instead of a third, leaving the world to be shaped by Muslim, Chinese, and indigenous American cultures.

Of course my favorites of such things are religious, or, at least have a religious thread. Kind of obvious, I guess. Which I’m sure is in part why people keep pointing me to that Years of Rice and Salt. And, so, of course, why one of my favorite books in recent years is Michael Chabon’s The Yiddish Policemen’s Union, which posits a world where Israel didn’t happen. There are tons of them, and I could go on about them at length.

However, today I’d like to hold up the intriguing realities of Eastern and Western religious encounter and speculate just a little on some of the “what ifs” that with just a few things going one way rather than another could have left us with a very different Christianity, or, at least, a very interesting and vibrant alternative possibility to what has become normative in the West.

I suspect most of us here are familiar with the fact that the story of the Buddha made its way West in the early centuries of the Church, and the Buddha even ended up a saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as Josaphat of Sts Barlaam and Josaphat. Their feast, admittedly not celebrated so much since the historical connections were made, is celebrated on the 27th of November for the Romans, and on the 26th of August in the Orthodox calendar. So, it doesn’t take a lot of heavy lifting intellectually to figure the favor was returned. And it was.

A lot happened on that famous Silk Road that joined East and West.

In 1625 workers digging near a temple discovered a large stone monument. Local intellectuals began to examine it and discovered it recorded the story of a long lost Christian mission to China. Written in Chinese and Syriac it recounted the early Seventh century mission of Bishop Alopen and the establishment of the “Luminous Religion,” a Chinese branch of the Church of the East, sometimes called the Nestorian Church. What’s particularly interesting is how the tablet’s Christianity doesn’t quite line up with Nestorian orthodoxy in some interesting ways. The trinity, for instance, is mentioned, as is the incarnation, but there’s no reference to a crucifixion or resurrection. It was also clear that the Luminous Religion had synthesized with both Buddhism and most of all with Taoism. All so tantalizing, but just this one large stone monument left as testimony to something long gone.

It appeared that during the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution in the middle of the Ninth Century, while it knocked Buddhism back on its heels, it also wiped out several smaller religious communities, including the Luminous Religion, which apparently the authorities considered a Buddhist heresy.

So, what the Luminous Religion actually was remained a delicious hint at something, but no one was sure of what precisely. Then on the 25th of June, in 1900 a Daoist monk stumbled onto a cache of manuscripts hidden in a cave near Dunhuang, an ancient city along that Silk Road. This discovery ranks with finding the Dead Sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library, and in fact in some ways exceeds them in importance. It proved a treasure trove of documents, some fifty thousand of them, in fifteen different languages, including at least one language that has otherwise been lost to the sands of history. Some of the Daoist and Buddhist texts are priceless, deeply re-orienting a world of scholarship. The cache also included the oldest printed book in the world, an edition of the Buddhist Diamond Sutra.

And it included texts from that long gone Luminous Religion, what have come to be called the Jesus Sutras. Sutra means thread, and is used in the sense of our shared Indo-European English’s “suture,” a binding thread. In Buddhism a Sutra is a sacred text. And while Christian, the shifts from normative Christianity are such that many feel “Jesus Sutra” a more accurate characterization of these texts.

Now the best single source about the religion and its texts for us is Martin Palmer’sThe Jesus Sutras: Rediscovering the Lost Scrolls of Taoist Christianity. A scholarly study, although it is not without its critics, many of whom suggest he slants his translations in ways that are not warranted by the texts themselves, making the Buddhist and Daoist influences larger than is warranted. Me, I’m going for his version whole hog.

There are many significant features of this Luminous Religion. One that caught me quickly is the blending of Guanyin, who had already been transformed from an indigenous Chinese goddess into the Buddhist archetype of compassion, reshapes once again with Mary, becoming a heartful image that many of us who’ve experienced both Buddhism and Christianity, including me, have also found ourselves. I’m also taken with the integration of Christian and Buddhist liturgical practices, and most important of all I’m just astonished at the “new” Christian texts of the Luminous Religion, those Jesus Sutras using Buddhist and Daoist imagery and idioms, and with all that transforming Christianity into something for me now very exciting and compelling. Its worth noting how this also happened earlier in Chinese religious history when Indian Buddhism came to China and began translating its texts into Chinese using Daoist terminology, and birthing out of that, that whole new Buddhism that we call Zen.

The Luminous Religion was, as it were, innocent of Augustine’s terrible idea of original sin, instead embraced the loveliness of the world, and while celebrating the divine origins of their teacher, consistently emphasized his teachings as the truly important thing, describing a holy way of life. They embraced both reincarnation and karma. My friend the independent scholar Adrian Worsfold summarizes the Luminous Religion’s followers as “vegetarians, (who) promoted non-violence, charity, sexual equality, care for nature, and were (nearly uniquely in their world strongly) anti-slavery.” And, while it continues the Trinitarian formula for baptism, with the change of calling the spirit, “pure wind,” the Luminous Religion’s teachings otherwise appear to be pretty Unitarian, emphasizing “salvation by character.” Well Unitarian if Unitarianism emerged out of Christianity, and Buddhism, and Taoism streaming together as a new version of the ancient Watercourse Way.

So, on the one hand a Westerner can find a lot easily recognizable in the Jesus Sutras, although often with a twist. For instance the Ten Commandments, or here “covenants.”

The first covenant of God is that anything that exists and does evil will be punished, especially if they do not respect the elderly. The second covenant is to honor and care for elderly parents. Those who do this will be true followers of Heaven’s Way. The third covenant is to acknowledge we have been brought into existence through our parents. Nothing exists without parents. The fourth covenant is that anybody who understands the precepts should know to be kind and considerate to everything, and to do no evil to anything that lives. The fifth covenant is that any living being should not take the life of another living being, and should also teach others to do likewise. The sixth covenant is that nobody should commit adultery, or persuade anyone else to do so. The seventh covenant is not to steal. The eighth covenant is that nobody should covet a living man’s wife, or his lands, or his palace, or his servants. The ninth covenant is not to let your envy of somebody’s good wife, or son, or house or gold, lead you to bear false witness against them. The tenth covenant is only to offer to God that which is yours to give.
And on the other hand there are teachings that more obviously echo the ancient wisdoms of Buddhism and Daoism, like the Four Essential Laws of Christian Dharma.

The first is no wanting. If your heart is obsessed with something, it manifests in all kinds of distorted ways. Distorted thoughts are the root of negative behavior…
The second is no doing. Don’t put on a mask and pretend to be what you’re not…
The effort needed to hold a direction is abandoned, and there is simply action and reaction. So walk the Way of No Action. The third is no piousness. And what that means
is not wanting to have your good deeds broadcast to the nation. Do what’s right to bring people to the truth
but not for your own reputation’s sake. So anyone who teaches the Triumphant Law, practicing the Way of Light to bring life to the truth, will know peace and happiness in company. But don’t talk it away. This is the Way of No Virtue. The fourth is no absolute. Don’t try to control everything. Don’t take sides in arguments about right and wrong. Treat everyone equally, and live from day to day. It’s like a clear mirror that reflects everything anyway: Green or yellow or in any combination -
It shows everything, as well as the smallest of details. What does the mirror do? It reflects without judgment.

The Luminous Religion calls us to a middle path, a Buddhist, Daoist, Christian middle way. It calls us into a deep investigation of our own lives, and it calls us into a community of mutual accountability.

Martin Palmer tells us, “The Jesus Sutras offer salvation from what we have made of ourselves – salvation from karma or (if you rather) from the burden of ‘original sin’ – because beneath the layers of our inadequate actions lies an original nature that is good. These spiritual, theological, psychological, philosophical, and ethical insights are in the Jesus Sutras, often beautifully and simply portrayed in accessible images, stories, and concepts.”

So fascinating, so wonderful. And so sad they were lost.

However Palmer adds how, in fact, they only await our discovery, yours and mine. He invites us to embark out on our own Silk Road, our own journey of discovery.

Palmer concludes his book with an observation. “After a thousand years, the Jesus Sutras have returned to us to shed light on the past, speak to our present, and, possibly, help shape our future.”

Here I find myself thinking of that “what if,” and realize in fact the door isn’t closed, the door is wide open.

We find something wondrous being presented. For those who have the eyes to see it, ears to hear it.

We want something different? We want to change the world?

Well, we start with ourselves.

We need to let go of what we thought was so, what had to be so, and allow other possibilities to emerge.

And so an invitation:

Take a walk along the Silk Road for yourself.

And dig a little.

Read. Talk. And most of all, pay attention.

You never know what treasure might be revealed.

You might even find what if becomes what is.

And wouldn’t that be a miracle?

Amen.
​

As noted scholar Philip Jenkins noted best in the review:

The most stunningly successful of these eastern Christian bodies was the Church of the East, often called the Nestorian church. While the Western churches were expanding their influence within the framework of the Roman Empire, the Syriac-speaking churches colonized the vast Persian kingdom that ruled from Syria to Pakistan and the borders of China. From their bases in Mesopotamia - modern Iraq - Nestorian Christians carried out their vast missionary efforts along the Silk Route that crossed Central Asia. By the eighth century, the Church of the East had an extensive structure across most of central Asia and China, and in southern India. The church had senior clergy - metropolitans - in Samarkand and Bokhara, in Herat in Afghanistan. A bishop had his seat in Chang'an, the imperial capital of China, which was then the world's greatest superpower.

When Nestorian Christians were pressing across Central Asia during the sixth an
d seventh centuries, they met the missionaries and saints of an equally confident and expansionist religion: Mahayana Buddhism. Buddhists too wanted to take their saving message to the world, and launched great missions from India's monasteries and temples. In this diverse world, Buddhist and Christian monasteries were likely to stand side by side, as neighbors and even, sometimes, as collaborators. Some historians believe that Nestorian missionaries influenced the religious practices of the Buddhist religion then developing in Tibet. Monks spoke to monks.

In presenting their faith, Christians naturally used the cultural forms that would be familiar to Asians. They told their stories in the forms of sutras, verse patterns already made famous by Buddhist missionaries and teachers. A stunning collection of Jesus Sutras was found in caves at Dunhuang, in northwest China. Some Nestorian writings draw heavily on Buddhist ideas, as they translate prayers and Christian services in ways that would make sense to Asian readers. In some texts, the Christian phrase "angels and archangels and hosts of heaven" is translated into the language of buddhas and devas.

One story in particular suggests an almost shocking degree of collaboration between the faiths. In 782, the Indian Buddhist missionary Prajna arrived in Chang'an, bearing rich treasures of sutras and other scriptures. Unfortunately, these were written in Indian languages. He consulted the local Nestorian bishop, Adam, who had already translated parts of the Bible into Chinese. Together, Buddhist and Christian scholars worked amiably together for some years to translate seven copious volumes of Buddhist wisdom. Probably, Adam did this as much from intellectual curiosity as from ecumenical good will, and we can only guess about the conversations that would have ensued: Do you really care more about relieving suffering than atoning for sin? And your monks meditate like ours do?

These efforts bore fruit far beyond China. Other residents of Chang'an at this very time included Japanese monks, who took these very translations back with them to their homeland. In Japan, these works became the founding texts of the great Buddhist schools of the Middle Ages. All the famous movements of later Japanese history, including Zen, can be traced to one of those ancient schools and, ultimately - incredibly - to the work of a Christian bishop.

By the 12th century, flourishing churches in China and southern India were using the lotus-cross. The lotus is a superbly beautiful flower that grows out of muck and slime. No symbol could better represent the rise of the soul from the material, the victory of enlightenment over ignorance, desire, and attachment. For 2,000 years, Buddhist artists have used the lotus to convey these messages in countless paintings and sculptures. The Christian cross, meanwhile, teaches a comparable lesson, of divine victory over sin and injustice, of the defeat of the world. Somewhere in Asia, Yeshua's forgotten followers made the daring decision to integrate the two emblems, which still today forces us to think about the parallels between the kinds of liberation and redemption offered by each faith.

Christianity, for much of its history, was just as much an Asian religion as Buddhism. Asia's Christian churches survived for more than a millennium, and not until the 10th century, halfway through Christian history, did the number of Christians in Europe exceed that in Asia.

What ultimately obliterated the Asian Christians were the Mongol invasions, which spread across Central Asia and the Middle East from the 1220s onward. From the late 13th century, too, the world entered a terrifying era of climate change, of global cooling, which severely cut food supplies and contributed to mass famine. The collapse of trade and commerce crippled cities, leaving the world much poorer and more vulnerable. Intolerant nationalism wiped out Christian communities in China, while a surging militant Islam destroyed the churches of Central Asia.

But awareness of this deep Christian history contributes powerfully to understanding the future of the religion, as much as its past. For long centuries, Asian Christians kept up neighborly relations with other faiths, which they saw not as deadly rivals but as fellow travelers on the road to enlightenment. Their worldview differed enormously from the norms that developed in Europe.

​

.... the Silk Road is something which has helped MANY empires come to power and actually do well economically. Amongst the most powerful empires ever to change the world economically (and religiously as well) due to the Silk Road were the Mongols

• The Mongols and the Silk Road - The Silkroad Foundation

Last December I went to an exhibit at the Ferbank Muesuem of Natural History on Genghis Khan" (more here, here and here)....and it was wild learning on Genghis Khan being more than the stereotypical barbarian.

Apparently, from what I was able to learn with my friends/family, Genghis established freedom of religion and cultural expression in the lands he conquered, promoted a meritocracy and created the first efficient mail system...and he even popularized pants (much better for horseback riding). From an impoverished, illiterate and isolated youth, Genghis created a nation, a language, religious and political freedoms, a post office, Pony Express, diplomatic immunity, a network of international toll roads, and a host of other innovations in what was by far the largest empire in the history of the world. ...and in many respects, his empire was previous to other ones that were successful such as the Persian Empire (very majestic/beautiful and the envy of the West) when seeing how the Persians were often being beloved by their subjects for the ways they treated others/allowed a significant deal of multiculturalism and supported a policy of multi-religious views to flourish.


With the Genghis Khan exhibit, I really enjoyed it and seeing so many of the ways that the man/Mongolian Empire impacted the world - with many of the things we have today coming directly from that, be it paper money, forks, pants, eyeglasses, passports or national parks and many other things. Was tripped out seeing the ways that the Mongol Empire facilitated cultural, political, economic, and technological transfer across Eurasia and thereby helped to revitalize civilization in China, India, the Middle East, and Europe. It was even more of a delight for me to attend the exhibit on Genghis Khan in light of the ways that Eastern Christianity/ Church of the East greatly influenced the Mongol Empire (more discussed here /here/here/here/here/here /here/ here/ here/ here/ here/here & here in #84 ) - and I was really blessed seeing the multiple artifacts they shared at the exhibit on the issue of Eastern Christians - with it being the case that the Nestorians won many members of the Keralts tribe to their faith (and in the 13th century this tribe would produce Genghis Khan, the military leader who would unify the Mongol tribes ) and there were many Nestorian Christians in the court of Genghis Khan, including the wife of the khan himself. It was very amazing seeing how there were certainly Christian sects operating within the Mongolian sphere at the time in question, as the Nestorians had been converting Mongols since the 7th century and the Keraits, Merkits, etc., had large Christian beliefs. .and these Christians then intermarried with other Mongolian tribes - with at least two sons of Genghis Khan married Nestorian women...and the influences being so great that Genghis Khan also exempted Christian priests and scholars from paying any taxes.


But so much of what Khan did would never have been possible if Khan did not choose to utilize the Silk Road and what it offered. And while there in the exhibit, I was thankful realizing how the Silk Road (which many, from missionaries to merchants, used) was something that Ghenghis used in opening up trade between East/West (more at Mongols China and the Silk Road)

​

​

 

[Kristos]

This was reported by no less a man than St. John of Damascus. And other accounts suggest that Mohammed did meet with a Nestorian monk. It eould be fairly easy to degenerate from Nestorianism into non-Trinitarianism for the uninitiated given the week coupling of the two qname of the Lord in Nestorian Christology, particularly if the monk was not particularly competent in theological exposition.



Islam is actually as close to Orthodoxy, closer even, than some of the more extreme Gnostic heresies, which rejected the OT and had alternative NTs. Islamic accounts of the passion of our Lord, or rather, in their view, the lack thereof, resemble to a degree thr account found, if memory serves, in the Gospel of Philip.

The view that Islam is a heretical, degenerate form of Christianity is not recent; St. John of Damascus classified it as such.

Hey Wgw - I double checked St John's writing - and here is the quote:

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites --- From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”
Saint John of Damascus
Translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr.
THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH: A NEW TRANSLATION (PATRISTIC SERIES), VOL. 37

This is from the section called heresies - but I really don't think St John is painting Islam as a doctrinal Christian heresy like Nestorianism or Arianism - instead he plainly calls it "superstition". He also say that it was an Arian monk, like I said originally...of course, it really doesn't matter either way.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

yes, He is the Prophet like unto Moses that Moses predicted

Indeed...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed. I think this is indeed something MANY Muslims have understood well, although that aspect of Muslim culture (as it concerns Muslims noting directly Jesus is both the Messiah and SINLESS/GOD) is not well known to the West or easy to believe with so many variations). Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere, as seen in Professor at Evangelical College suspended for saying Muslims and Christians have connection in God

I would not go so far as to say they have a connection in God. they believe similarly on certain grounds, but the important stuff they are way off on. they have more in common with Mormons than us.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I would not go so far as to say they have a connection in God. they believe similarly on certain grounds, but the important stuff they are way off on. they have more in common with Mormons than us.

Would strongly disagree, as I agree with St. John of Damascus that they are a mutated form of Christianity (herectical) whereas Mormonism is nowhere close. That St. John of Damascus witnessed Islam as it began (and ended really) is significant and it is because of his stance in painting Islam as a doctrinal Christian heresy that I have a lot of grace for Muslims. I also do not see where God ever dismissed others who were incomplete in their knowledge of Him since that occurred multiple times - from Apollos in Acts 18 (who did not know fully on the Way to Salvation even though he was of great impact in preaching on Christ even without the Holy Spirit being something he was aware of ) OR Acts 19 with the Disciples following God who only knew of John's Baptism and yet did not know fully of Jesus.

God never seemed at any point to condemn others on the basis of ignorance alone and St. Isaac was very big about the sheer love of God in meeting others where they are.

• Allah, Son, and Holy Spirit: The Apologetics of Oneness and Threeness - Orthodoxy

• Do Christians and Muslims (and Jews) Worship the Same God? - Eclectic Orthodoxy
• Worshipping Jesus At A Mosque - Journey To Orthodoxy

I like how another put it when sharing the following:

Thanks to the holidays, the internet debate about whether Christians and Muslims worship the “same” God and refer to the “same” divine reality by their use of “God” and “Allah,” respectively, has died down a bit; but the question is not likely to go away anytime soon. So far we have mainly heard from Protestant analytic philosophers and evangelical theologians. But what about Roman Catholics and the Orthodox? So far I have not found anything particularly interesting on the subject by contemporary Eastern Orthodox theologians, yet I have learned that in the first millennium Arabic-speaking Christians assumed that both Christianity and Islam believed in the one God/Allah. They commonly spoke of Allah and his Kalimah (Word) and his Ruh (Spirit). Tom Belt has shared with me his recent correspondence with Dr Najib G. Awad, author of Orthodoxy in Arabic Terms. With Awad’s permission I quote this passage from his email to Tom:

But, to my knowledge of the Christian-Muslim Kalam in the early Muslim Era, which I touch upon in my book Orthodoxy in Arabic Terms, the Arab-Speaking, Oriental Christians always believed that they and Islam believe in the same God. So, it was not a problem for them calling the God of the Scripture and of Jesus Christ, “Allah”. They even talked about the Trinity in terms that are reminiscent of the Qur’anic attestation: the Trinity is Allah, his Kalimah (Word) and Ruh (Spirit). They also talked about Jesus as God’s Word ‘kalimat Allah’ intensively in their kalam texts due to this belief in the commonality of their and the Muslim’s belief in God. John of Damascus in the 7th century would treat Islam as just a Christian-Jewish Heresy, not as a totally contrast faith. Timothy I in the 8th century and Theodore abu Qurrah, Abu Ra’itah at-takriti and Ammar al-Basri in the 9th centuries would also speak about the Christian God not just in Arabic terms, but also in Qur’anic ones because they believed that the common components between the Christian and Muslim doctrines of God are far more evident to be ignored or undermined. So, what western scholars like Volf try to reveal to the western world today as a revolutionary and new discovery has been considered a given fact for these Oriental Christians of the 7th-9th centuries.​

Once Oriental Christians realized they could not ignore Islam but had to engage it theologically and apologetically, they found they could not simply dismiss it as a form of pagan idolatry.
​

Besides that, there's the fact that there have been countless Muslims saying plainly Christ is the Messiah (i.e. He was sent to save the world, was sinless, was GOD/Spirit of God, etc.) and note directly their own text does not allow for them to believe that Jesus is not God...even though many Immans try to say otherwise just as other Christians say otherwise too. The text alone notes that Jesus was God and that the Trinity itself is what Qu'ranic Islam was They get overlooked way too much, but I have to always take it right back to the scriptures when it comes to noting what God responds to - and what he sees as being connected or not.

We cannot dismiss the many who are Muslims (or Muslim Background Believers) who've spoken on the issue in the community with regards to trusting Isa for salvation. Prominent voices I've seen on the issue such as Professor Faouzi Arzouni’ , who grew up within Islam, have noted repeatedly what his experiences were like coming to see Isa Al Masih (more shared in Faouzi Arzouni - Qur'an-Bible Comparison ) and the ways that Jesus was present

This was brought up before elsewhere..but as said there, Something that should not be forgotten is that despite all of the battles occurring, we can often miss out on what Christ is already doing in the rest of the world by reaching/meeting others where they are and drawing them to Himself. This is critical when it comes to ANYONE claiming Muslims are not seeking Jesus or that God does not listen to them/is not concerned. That goes directly counter to the thousands of testimonies of Muslims who have had Isa Al Masih come to them in dreams and visions in order to say "I am the one you've been seeking." That (alongside prayer and support for others reaching them by acknowledging where they are already on point, just like Christ did with the Samaritan Woman at the Well when presenting HIMSELF) will always go more in terms of effectiveness than simply claiming any kind of positive acknowledgement of who they are is what God wants.

The Bektashi Muslims praying at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in Brod, Macedonia always come back to my mind...(with the Macedonian Orthodox Church)

​

The shrine of Saint Nikola and the H’d’r Baba tekke.

In Macedonia it is common to find shrines shared by multiple faiths, wherein Christians and Muslims worship together in absolute harmony. According to the Christians, the shrine of Saint Nikola is believed to have been built as a church by the saint of the same name, whereas Muslims believed it was founded as a tekke by H’d’r Baba. Despite the disagreement over it’s origins, it has brought the community together rather then divided them, and both faiths share this holy place as a sanctuary for worship in which all are welcome.

It’s walls are lined with icons of Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, and Christian saints all alongside icons of Imam Ali, Imam Hussain, and Bektashi saints. It is maintained by clergy of both faiths.

(via kaalaa-paanii-deactivated201409)​

Some of the stories of how Muslims came to Christ are truly amazing:

What happened for those Muslims alongside countless others was NOT a matter of God saying "Yeah!!!! Those Muslims don't worship the God I worship!!" - but of God's compassion/mercy manifesting itself and His LOVE for them showing clearly. And as said earlier, People sitting back merely critiquing anyone in Islam with "They don't serve the same God as I do!!!!" actually fall into the category of failing to understand the IMMENSE Mercy and LOVE of God when it comes to seeing what the Lord felt on the lost and the ways he has ALWAYS acknowledged others coming to Him.

The Lord worked with Cornelius and others, he can work fully with Muslims. ....

Acts 10
Cornelius Sends a Delegation
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”

4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”

So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.”

​

Like Cornelius, there are numerous Muslim men and their families who are “devout”, in the sense that they are observant Muslims who take their faith seriously. They “fear God” by praying at the mosque regularly and adhering to the Five Pillars, which includes being generous to the poor. Moreover, since we frequently hear accounts of religious Muslims having visions or dreams of a man in white who identifies Himself as the Son of God and meets them where they are - leading to them seeing that it is Christ once the dream is explained in light of the gospel and that Christ is seeking Him, it is something following the pattern of Cornelius’ story: the God fearing man or woman, the vision and then the explanation, given by a believer whom God has providentially sent.

But with Devout behavior pleasing God, St. James notes this when pointing out how religion that God considers spotless is to look after widows and orphans (James 1) and it's possible for Muslims to walk this out just as it is with any group. Anyone earnestly desiring to seek after God and who is living a life pleasing to Him will see that God can be found and Cornelius found Him about 3pm (the ninth hour) or actually God found Cornelius, for while he was praying he saw a vision…an angel sent from God came to Him and like all of us would, he “stared at him in terror” but showing his willingness to obey, he said “What is it, Lord?” God had apparently heard his prayers and seen his alms-giving and as a memorial.

Some of this has been shared more in-depth elsewhere, as seen here in the following:

The conflict in the Middle East has me thinking about martyrdom. When I went to a Melkite Church, the parish priest mentioned that some Muslim Imams were giving their lives to protect Christians against extremists. He said that they could be considered "martyrs" that we as Christians should respect.

That got me thinking, if a Muslim dies to protect Christians, do they have a chance at salvation? I would say that it is possible, but only God could be the judge. Dying to save Christians, is in many ways, accepting Christ through blood. Thoughts?

Some of what you note is interesting when it comes to seeing how the Early Church actually viewed Islam. Specifically, a lot of folks encounter Islam on a very surface level alone, not even aware of how others such as St. John of Damascus and other great Christian scholars of the Early Church interacted with Islam (when Islam in its beginning stages was called “the heresy of the Ishmaelites - more in St. Peter's List: Islam as a Christian Heresy: 8 Quotes from St. John Damascene A.D. 749 and The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque: Christians and Muslims in the World ... - Sidney H. Griffith - Google Books). When considering the reality that Islam is really a sect of Christianity - aberrational - then it places things within the camp of seeing Muslims in the same way that one sees heterodox believers. And for me, when seeing what occurred within the history of the Early Church, it was often the case that there were others who were deemed "herectics" and yet they were saints at differing points.

It seems more than possible, IMHO, for Muslims to be "Christian Martyrs" for the Gospel - and as said before, it all goes back to
Matthew 25 which seems to point out that you'll see MANY surprised when they are told "When I was naked, you clothed me....when I was hungry, you fed me..." by Jesus. He made plain whatever is done to the least of these, brethren, it was done to Him.

I think we should take seriously the sacrifices other Muslims have taken when other Christians have been protected by them even if those Muslims were killed by others - in the SAME way that Christians in the U.S South were harmed by others advocating a false form of Christianity that condoned slavery/kidnapping and terrorism against Blacks and made it seem like Black Christians were inferior to Whites. When I consider the dynamic of Muslims being martyrs for Christ, I am reminded of what happened in Egypt....how The Coptic Orthodox Pope, HH Tawadrous II (As said in anticipation for the attacks ) made a statement about the attacks on churches, saying that “this had been expected and, as Egyptians and Christians, we are considering our church buildings as a sacrifice to be made for our beloved Egypt”. and that some Muslims went to protect churches and, in return, many Christians then sent messages to their fellow Muslim citizens saying, “buildings can be rebuilt again, but you are priceless, so stay safe, and don't worry about the churches”. ...but for the many who have formed walls to protect Christians, that cannot be minimized. I will never forget what occurred when hand in hand as many as 200-300 people formed a human chain outside the St Anthony’s Church adjacent to the District Police Lines at the Empress Road, in a show of solidarity with the victims of the Peshawar church attack two weeks earlier, which resulted in over a 100 deaths....and many others besides that:

• The Muslim who gave up his life for Mosul’s Christians - Vatican Insider

• “Muslims protecting Christians in Egypt during mass”

Interesting to consider - as I'm reminded of others like King Cyrus in Isaiah 42. He was never deemed to be an Israelite or following the God of Israel and yet he was known to be "God's Anointed" in the capacity he was used to serve and save the Jewish people. In Israel, there were those who were thankful for the People of Israel/the area they resided and yet they may've not been devoted to serving the Lord - much in the same way that you had others like King Darius with Daniel or King Cyrus who helped the Jewish people return home in addition to being beloved by their subjects for the ways they treated others/allowed a significant deal of multiculturalism and supported a policy of multi-religious views to flourish.. and was well known for being "The Lord's Anointed One"/"God's Servant"/ "God's Shepherd" ( Isaiah 45:1-3 /Isaiah 44:27-28 (- more shared here in #1)according to Isaiah....or King Hiram who helped Solomon in His kingdom (1 Kings 9:13 2 Samuel 5 /1 Kings 5 /2 Chronicles 2 /2 Chronicles 2:10-12 ).

The same dynamic of being impacted greatly by the Lord and used (even when not fully aware of who He is) is also noted in the story of Naaman the Syrian (from the nation of Aram where Syria is at) - from 2 Kings 5 whom Christ referenced later on when it came to the people he chose to interact with and saying what it meant to follow the Lord:

Luke 4:18




Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”[k]
​

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”





23 He said to them, “You will surely say this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done in Capernaum,[l] do also here in Your country.’” 24 Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”


Surprises and Disappointments-
2 Kings 5:1-22
15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”

16 The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.

17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”
19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.​

Naaman - under the impression that Israel's God can only be worshipped in the land of Israel/sacred territory - asked for dirt since it was necessary to create a "miniature Israel" in Syria - and of course, the question of how God could be worshiped in a foreign land became a serious one for Israel during the exile (Psalm 137:4)....but the reality of the matter is that actions were done symbolically because of what they symbolized. Two mules' burden of earth— Dirt with which to make an altar (Ex 20:24) Someone could have easily claimed Naaman wanted to worship dirt - but that was not his intention. He simply knew where he was going back to and how he'd basically be alone - but still wanted some level of access...


But at the end of the day, there's nothing saying that Naaman ever came to a full realization of who God was in all levels - yet he was impacted by the Lord and used.


And we have an extensive history of others who were not fully aware of who God was and yet they were used greatly to impact others for the Gospel. I don't see anywhere in scripture where the Lord said that those who are not saved will not be honored by the Lord if they do actions on behalf of the saints since it seems in Matthew 25 that you'll see MANY surprised when they are told "When I was naked, you clothed me....when I was hungry, you fed me..." by Jesus. He made plain whatever is done to the least of these, brethren, it was done to Him.

So who's really to say that the Muslims who give their lives to protect their brethren are somehow not going to be considered martyrs.

I would not call them "martyrs" because as has been mentioned, that word for Christians has the specific meaning of giving one's life directly for the sake of giving witness to the gospel.

But I do recognize your point, and I would say that Paul recognized it as well when he spoke of the "covenant of one" between God and a person who was not part of an earthly body of believers and did not have access to revealed knowledge of God.

C.S. Lewis makes that point in the final book of his Chronicles of Narnia, "The Last Battle." That book is an unabashed tale of End Times apostasy and judgment.

In it, a prince of the Calormen--the long-time foes of Aslan--had been taught from childhood that his god Tash was the good, noble god and that Aslan was the evil, base god. When told to commit evil acts in the name of Tash, he refuses--he cannot believe a good god would command evil--and is imprisoned.

Toward the end of the story when Aslan is judging the faithful from the unfaithful, Aslan appears in prison to the Calormen prince. Immediately at the sight of Aslan, the prince realizes that everything he had been taught about Aslan had been a lie. He throws himself down at Aslan's feet and professes that he deserves nothing better than death under the lion's paw.

But surprisingly, Aslan tells him, in effect, "It was always me you served" and the Calormen prince winds up--to the surprise of everyone else--in the New Narnia with the faithful.

I see hints in scripture--and the story of Naamen is one of them--that something like that is within the plan of God.

But that does not give us who have the gospel a "pass" to pause in the mission we're given to make disciples in every nation. "Membership has its benefits," Christ wants as many as possible to have that benefit. We have been given a mission to fulfull, and it's not our call to decide whether it's necessary in any given case.

I'd disagree to a point, seeing that when seeing the rest of what's said in the Scriptures, it seems plain that one does not have to have FULL knowledge of what the Gospel is in order to actually live out the essence of it - or be qualified as having God's blessing. Others may be on the path of finding Christ even though they never fully understood who He was or what he was about - and when they died to protect others (especially Christians), they were indeed living out the essence of what Jesus talked on in multiple occasions.

In example, we know the scriptures speaks clearly on the Good Samaritan being a neighbor because he sought to reach out/help others in need (Luke 10:24-39) - despite where those who seemed more qualified/"right with the Lord" like the Levite and the priest wouldn't bother with helping others who needed help. And there is something to be said as it concerns the issue of how being a child of God occurs on differing levels - with even those who never knew Christ acting like Sons of God because they actually chose to love other/be merciful as their Heavenly Father is Merciful ( Luke 6:34-36 )

Matthew 10:42

Suppose someone gives even a cup of cold water to a little one who follows me. What I’m about to tell you is true. That one will certainly be rewarded.”
​

Matthew 10:41-42



This is something C.S Lewis actually spoke on more in-depth in his Narnia series.

In the last of his books written for children, The Last Battle, C.S Lewis includes a passage where a servant of the false god, Tash, recounts standing before the judgment of Aslan (Lewis' Christ-figure, who appears in the form of a fiersome lion). As said there in The Last Battle ( page 154-155 ). The best instance of Lewis' inclusivism is the story of Emeth, the Calormene in The Last Battle who was accepted by Aslan (who represents Jesus) because his worship of the false god Tash was a true worship. The opposites of Emeth were those characters who had a false worship of Aslan and were not accepted by him, such as Shift the ape.

Inclusivism has a lot of interesting dynamics ( #67, #68 #135 )- and C.S Lewis advocatd Inclusivism and I think there's something to be said on how even those who seem to be very confused on issues may make it into the Kingdom of God due to the fact that their hearts were set on seeking the Lord - and trying to find truth.

Of course, there's an aspect of helping others grow further that we see even in scripture. In example, Cornelius in Acts 10-11 comes immediately to mind, as he had no idea about Jesus and yet scriptures notes how his prayers/devout actions (i.e. gifts to the poor, kindness, etc) were like prayers before the Lord -and the Lord sent full revelation to the man via Peter. But prior to that, Cornelius was still seen as a disciple/follower of the Lord..

There's also Acts 18:24-28, where its clear that Apollos only knew of the Baptism of John...suggesting that He had not heard at all of the Baptism which Jesus commanded after His resurrection in Matthew 28:19....and which began to be administered to all believers in Christ on and after that day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:12, etc). Therefore, Apollos KNOWLEDGE of the Christian Gospel must have been deficient in SOME ways, though HE TAUGHT accurately the things concerning Jesus as far as he knew them.. He certainly knew about Jesus' life and teachings, but He may not have known about Jesus's death and resurrection...or about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. God blessed Him by sending Him others who gave more full awareness of it (Acts 19:1-20:1 ).

And of course, Acts 19:2-4 where Paul finds believers who were given ONLY the Baptism of John....but they were incomplete in God's Best for them.

Acts 19:1-6

Paul in Ephesus 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.
​

These believers in the Lord were COMPLETLY unaware of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit----something Christ made clear was apart of the reason why He had to die (Joel 2:27-29 , John 14, John 16, Acts 2:16-18, etc)---and therefore they probably had not heard much of Jesus's Life and ministry.....and CERTAINLY not of His death/resurrection and the work of the Holy Spirit. They had evidently relocated from Palestine to Ephesus before Jesus's own ministry began...and as followers of John, they would have known His message that the Messiah would bring the Spirit (Luke 3:16). Nonetheless, it stands to reason that the obvious issue is that they were already considered followers of GOD long before having full information of the details of Christ's Work/something to believe in....




And even prior to their meeting Paul, they were still teaching things others NEEDED to learn based on what they had received.

The Lord truly works with others where they are at...

....what C.S Lewis notes with Tash and Aslan is a good backdrop for understanding what the rest of scripture notes when it comes to how the Lord has revealed Himself. The Prodigal Son imagery also comes to mind, in regards to the ways that the Lord sees others who do not know Him fully.

... to be clear, believing that even those who never profess to be Christians can make it into the Kingdom is not the same as saying that no one needs to evangelize OR think nothing matters. Salvation was more than simply making it to Heaven - and learning and growth still occur after death. Learning about Christ was a matter of preparing us for the life to come in the next life and beyond. Others such as N.T Wright have spoken on the issue before in greater depth, as seen here.

Additionally, Fr. Thomas Hopko (as seen here and here)did some good presentations on the matter...for Christ is our Atonement - how far that atonement goes, of course, is another issue of debate all together and there are a myriad of differing perspectives on the issue..... Kallistos Ware doing an excellent discussion on the issue in “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All" and the thoughts of some of the Fathers such as St Isaac the Syrian who shared on God's Extensive Love. Every action we take is precious - and this is something that needs to be kept in mind when seeing the hearts of others who give their lives for Christ, even if they are not Christian themselves. Those actions impact what will occur later on and are a part of one's journey. What we do in this life will determine what we end up going for in the next. For in this life, if we choose not to love the Lord, we eventually harden ourselves to even having a desire to choose Him - and thus, we must train ourselves in this life to Love God so that we'll be ready for Life in the next when we are further purified. Fr. John Behr did an excellent presentation on the matter that discussed the issue of why it was important that Christ died - His death connected to how His life was an example of what God was wanting and felt important:

Fr. John Behr - Death - The Final Frontier - YouTube

With God's nature being love (I John 4) - love that GAVE itself for the world (John 3:15-18) as well as those of who were elect (I John 5) - it seems God would be the one to examine and part of examination is understand His right to not make sense when it comes to His Mercy (Matthew 20). God doesn't have to make sense since he made sense....the Mercy of God is a complicated and nuanced matter - as said best on Ancient Faith Radio on salvation (similar to conversations from before here, here, here and here/ here ).​

Something that comes to mind is that it seems easy to assume that something is done not by love when it comes to Non-Christians - even though we really do not know their hearts and cannot rule against it. And yet we have to be consistent and note that even the concept of saying someone dying (as a Christian) for other Christians as an inherent action of love is a topic we must also question.

In example, if a Non-Muslim cannot be considered as walking in love/doing an action unto God because they never claimed to be Christian (and thus cannot be said to be a "Christian Martyr" ), it must also be noted that a Christian claiming to die for the faith cannot automatically be considered a "Christian Martyr" if/when we do not know their own hearts.

You may claim you love the Lord/Honor His Word because you keep the Sabbath - and yet in the process of railing against others that they "hate God's Law" because of meeting on Sunday rather than Saturday, you may not realize you're corrupt in God's sight because you have a serious problem with attitudes/back-bitting and gossip on others you disagree with ( Psalm 12:3-4, Proverbs 18:8 , Proverbs 18:13, Col. 4:6 )

James 1:26
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
James 1:25-27

James 3:8-10/ James 3
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.
​

Many, as it concerns the OP, may be said that they are Christian Martyrs if they were to be killled and others would say they were good because they spoke out against Muslims and said "All Muslims HATE God" - and yet no one knew of how they did not qualify to even be called "Christian" because of what they did behind closed doors. Someone may claim to walk in purity - and yet in their hearts, they have serious struggles with forgiveness - genuine forgiveness of others - and thus, they decieve themselves since Yeshua made plain in Matthew 6:13 that " if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 , Colossians 3:7-9, etc. )...something Christ noted directly in the parable of the Unmerciful Servant and how the Lord responded to him for his treatment of others in Matthew 18:21-35

God also looks at the motives of the heart ( Proverbs 16:2 ) - and thus, it doesn't matter whether or not a person thinks they are observing more than another or doing more - as people can do things for selfish motives such as pride, self-satisfaction or appearing good - all of that being a matter of boasting and a worldly attitude ( 1 John 2:15-17 /1 John 2 )...whereas those who know they struggle/are incomplete are justified in God's sights

The same dynamics occurred in Luke 18:8-14 the same as what occurred with the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, the former continually recognizing his lack while the former continually prided himself on all the things he did according to the law and compared himself to others as the basis of why he was pleasing to God. In God's kingdom there is no allowance for pride or judging others in saying "I'm observant of God's Law because I do X, Y and Z and have more concern for it than others" - as the same people doing so already have areas others look at them and say "You need to be doing this...."..and in the event someone says "Well, it just can't be done the same and I do as much as I think is necessary/I'm able to do", they end up placing themselves in the same category as others whom they've deemed as not being concerned with God's law because they equally feel certain things cannot be done or weren't meant to continue. It simply differs on the area.


And with Muslims being deemed as "Martyrs", it is hard not to see the reality that many who would be quick to claim others are "Christian Martyrs" because of how they were killed for the faith/their confession may not be as quick to consider that even those they justified as martyrs would not be seen as such in God's eyes.

Are you a Martyr simply because you did confessing the right things done in the name of Christ (i.e. Claiming Christ/repeating the message of the Gospel, not denying Christ in the face of death, etc.) - or are you a Martyr because you lived out a lifestyle that aligned with the actions Christ was about? Or are you a Martyr even if/when you die doing the RIGHT things Jesus said and yet having no real idea what you're doing?

 

[Wgw]

Regardless, this story has little credence because even a Nestorian monk would believe in repentance and redemption - they would believe this is necessary due to the fall. These very basic ideas are absent from Islam. There is no fall, therefore there is no redemption - God predestines all and this is our fate. Heaven is not a place of eternal communion with God, it is a place of carnal pleasure. It's really not very important either way I suppose to the Christian side - but it is important to the Islamic side because it established some legitimacy for Mohamed as a prophet.

On this point, you obviously ignore the fact that no one is saying the Arian or Nestorian monk encountered by Mohammed convinced Mohammed to accept Nestorianism or Arianism wholesale; this is not the case and St. John of Damascus never said that it was.

Hey Wgw - I double checked St John's writing - and here is the quote:

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites --- From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”
Saint John of Damascus
Translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr.
THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH: A NEW TRANSLATION (PATRISTIC SERIES), VOL. 37

This is from the section called heresies - but I really don't think St John is painting Islam as a doctrinal Christian heresy like Nestorianism or Arianism - instead he plainly calls it "superstition". He also say that it was an Arian monk, like I said originally...of course, it really doesn't matter either way.

See the footnotes. It is believed by the tranaltors, based on other documents, that the Arian monk in question was in fact a Nestorian.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would strongly disagree, as I agree with St. John of Damascus that they are a mutated form of Christianity (herectical) whereas Mormonism is nowhere close.

I meant in their approach. both were founded by one guy who went off alone, had some revelation, and said that ancient Christianity perverted itself and that last Prophet came to correct the falsehoods.

That St. John of Damascus witnessed Islam as it began (and ended really) is significant and it is because of his stance in painting Islam as a doctrinal Christian heresy that I have a lot of grace for Muslims.

yeah, but they went very far down that heresy hole. they are definitely tapping into the same occult stuff as Mormons and every other pagan group.

I also do not see where God ever dismissed others who were incomplete in their knowledge of Him since that occurred multiple times - from Apollos in Acts 18 (who did not know fully on the Way to Salvation even though he was of great impact in preaching on Christ even without the Holy Spirit being something he was aware of ) OR Acts 19 with the Disciples following God who only knew of John's Baptism and yet did not know fully of Jesus.

God never seemed at any point to condemn others on the basis of ignorance alone and St. Isaac was very big about the sheer love of God in meeting others where they are.

no one is disputing these points

Besides that, there's the fact that there have been countless Muslims saying plainly Christ is the Messiah (i.e. He was sent to save the world, was sinless, was GOD/Spirit of God, etc.) and note directly their own text does not allow for them to believe that Jesus is not God...even though many Immans try to say otherwise just as other Christians say otherwise too. The text alone notes that Jesus was God and that the Trinity itself is what Qu'ranic Islam was They get overlooked way too much, but I have to always take it right back to the scriptures when it comes to noting what God responds to - and what he sees as being connected or not.

We cannot dismiss the many who are Muslims (or Muslim Background Believers) who've spoken on the issue in the community with regards to trusting Isa for salvation. Prominent voices I've seen on the issue such as Professor Faouzi Arzouni’ , who grew up within Islam, have noted repeatedly what his experiences were like coming to see Isa Al Masih (more shared in Faouzi Arzouni - Qur'an-Bible Comparison ) and the ways that Jesus was present

yeah, and it would be awesome if Christianity were merely this affirmation. but it's not.

This was brought up before elsewhere..but as said there, Something that should not be forgotten is that despite all of the battles occurring, we can often miss out on what Christ is already doing in the rest of the world by reaching/meeting others where they are and drawing them to Himself. This is critical when it comes to ANYONE claiming Muslims are not seeking Jesus or that God does not listen to them/is not concerned. That goes directly counter to the thousands of testimonies of Muslims who have had Isa Al Masih come to them in dreams and visions in order to say "I am the one you've been seeking." That (alongside prayer and support for others reaching them by acknowledging where they are already on point, just like Christ did with the Samaritan Woman at the Well when presenting HIMSELF) will always go more in terms of effectiveness than simply claiming any kind of positive acknowledgement of who they are is what God wants.

no one disputes this.

The Bektashi Muslims praying at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in Brod, Macedonia always come back to my mind...(with the Macedonian Orthodox Church)

aside from the Macedonian Church being schismatic and not in the Body of Christ, so it does not matter what Muslims do there.

What happened for those Muslims alongside countless others was NOT a matter of God saying "Yeah!!!! Those Muslims don't worship the God I worship!!" - but of God's compassion/mercy manifesting itself and His LOVE for them showing clearly. And as said earlier, People sitting back merely critiquing anyone in Islam with "They don't serve the same God as I do!!!!" actually fall into the category of failing to understand the IMMENSE Mercy and LOVE of God when it comes to seeing what the Lord felt on the lost and the ways he has ALWAYS acknowledged others coming to Him.

no one disputes this either....

 

[RLBeers]

The oldest mention of the Babylonian idol known as allah was about 500 BC (http://shoebat.com/2012/09/13/the-oldest-reference-to-allah/) Any relationship to the Lord, the creator of the universe and to Jesus is a false one. There is no more a relationship between the two than there is between the truth and a lie. One is an idol, made of crumbling stone and the other made the atoms that formed the stone.

 

[Kristos]

On this point, you obviously ignore the fact that no one is saying the Arian or Nestorian monk encountered by Mohammed convinced Mohammed to accept Nestorianism or Arianism wholesale; this is not the case and St. John of Damascus never said that it was.



See the footnotes. It is believed by the tranaltors, based on other documents, that the Arian monk in question was in fact a Nestorian.

Sorry - I'm not sure what your point is here. This discussion began with me saying that the story is apocryphal because Islam bears no resemblance to Christianity beyond the superficial names and places. Then you seemed to be arguing that the story is not apocryphal because St John mentioned it and that he categorized Islam as a Christian heresy. I disagree on both these points - his mention of the story is nothing more than repeating of what he heard - he calls it all superstition, so I don't think he is trying to legitimize the story, only record what he has been told. On the second point, there isn't any implication by St John that Islam is related to Christianity in any way - he dismisses it as superstition without any basis beyond one man's supposed revelations.

 

[Wgw]

Sorry - I'm not sure what your point is here. This discussion began with me saying that the story is apocryphal because Islam bears no resemblance to Christianity beyond the superficial names and places.

Islam very specifically resembles various Christian heresies: Ebionitism, for example, denied rhe divinity of our Lord and had its own gospel. Arianism famously denied the divinity of our Lord. Monergism lacks the soteriological implications of mainstream Christianity.

Then you seemed to be arguing that the story is not apocryphal because St John mentioned it and that he categorized Islam as a Christian heresy. I disagree on both these points - his mention of the story is nothing more than repeating of what he heard - he calls it all superstition, so I don't think he is trying to legitimize the story, only record what he has been told. On the second point, there isn't any implication by St John that Islam is related to Christianity in any way - he dismisses it as superstition without any basis beyond one man's supposed revelations.

Whereas it is true that St. John dismisses it as superstition, it is not true that there is no implied relation to Christianity. Indeed, St. John of Damascus specifically reviews how Islam represents a corruption of Christian doctrine.

 

[Kristos]

The oldest mention of the Babylonian idol known as allah was about 500 BC (http://shoebat.com/2012/09/13/the-oldest-reference-to-allah/) Any relationship to the Lord, the creator of the universe and to Jesus is a false one. There is no more a relationship between the two than there is between the truth and a lie. One is an idol, made of crumbling stone and the other made the atoms that formed the stone.

I'm not familiar with Shoebat. Islam is based on the pagan/tribal beliefs that existed in the arabian desert at the time and has zero relationship to Judeo-Christian beliefs. St John plainly calls it Antichrist. Nuff said, right?

 

[Wgw]

I meant in their approach. both were founded by one guy who went off alone, had some revelation, and said that ancient Christianity perverted itself and that last Prophet came to correct the falsehoods.



yeah, but they went very far down that heresy hole. they are definitely tapping into the same occult stuff as Mormons and every other pagan group.





no one is disputing these points



yeah, and it would be awesome if Christianity were merely this affirmation. but it's not.



no one disputes this.



aside from the Macedonian Church being schismatic and not in the Body of Christ, so it does not matter what Muslims do there.



no one disputes this either....

Note that if memory serves, the Bektashi veneration predates the schism in Macedonia. Also, schisms can be resolved; the present schism in Macedonia is a political artifact, not entirely unlike the now-resolved schism between the MP and ROCOR.

The Bektashis however are not typical Muslims; they are related to the Alevis and Alawis and are much despised by, for example, the vile regime of Erdogan. Some say they are crypto Christian; not I; I have read Bektashi writings which attack Christianity.

 

[Kristos]

Islam very specifically resembles various Christian heresies: Ebionitism, for example, denied rhe divinity of our Lord and had its own gospel. Arianism famously denied the divinity of our Lord. Monergism lacks the soteriological implications of mainstream Christianity.



Whereas it is true that St. John dismisses it as superstition, it is not true that there is no implied relation to Christianity. Indeed, St. John of Damascus specifically reviews how Islam represents a corruption of Christian doctrine.

Pastafarians deny the divinity of Christ too, but that doesn't mean that they resemble Ebionitism in any other way.

You will have to give me a specific example, because I don't see it.

 

[Wgw]

The oldest mention of the Babylonian idol known as allah was about 500 BC (http://shoebat.com/2012/09/13/the-oldest-reference-to-allah/) Any relationship to the Lord, the creator of the universe and to Jesus is a false one. There is no more a relationship between the two than there is between the truth and a lie. One is an idol, made of crumbling stone and the other made the atoms that formed the stone.

Note that Allah is a generic word for God, related to the Aramaic (East Syriac) Alaha and the West Semitic/Hebrew El.

 

[Wgw]

Pastafarians deny the divinity of Christ too, but that doesn't mean that they resemble Ebionitism in any other way.

You will have to give me a specific example, because I don't see it.

Pastafarianism, unlike Islam, does not begin with among other things a revelation allegedly from St. Gabriel, the view that Jesus was a prophet, a major prophet, whose words were distorted by the Church, requiring Mohammed to restate them, and other doctrines that represent a derivative of Christian doctrine, for example, Islamic eschatology, the Islamic doctrine of Shaitan, et cetera.

 

[Kristos]

Note that Allah is a generic word for God, related to the Aramaic (East Syriac) Alaha and the West Semitic/Hebrew El.

True - even Christians use this word for God in Arabic - so there is a logical breakdown somewhere...I didn't follow the rabbit trail because I don't recognize the source.

 

[Kristos]

Pastafarianism, unlike Islam, does not begin with among other things a revelation allegedly from St. Gabriel, the view that Jesus was a prophet, a major prophet, whose words were distorted by the Church, requiring Mohammed to restate them, and other doctrines that represent a derivative of Christian doctrine, for example, Islamic eschatology, the Islamic doctrine of Shaitan, et cetera.

The point is that any two non-parallel lines interest at one point, but then diverge into infinity, so saying that Islam resembles this or that Christian heresy because it has one thing in common isn't really saying much...

So what about Islamic eschatology do you think resembles Christian - just that there is a last judgement? Sure, that seems to be true on the surface, but as soon as you dig into the details and the doctrine, the two diverge like non-parallel lines...

 

[Wgw]

The point is that any two non-parallel lines interest at one point, but then diverge into infinity, so saying that Islam resembles this or that Christian heresy because it has one thing in common isn't really saying much...

So what about Islamic eschatology do you think resembles Christian - just that there is a last judgement? Sure, that seems to be true on the surface, but as soon as you dig into the details and the doctrine, the two diverge like non-parallel lines...

Islam is as closely related to the Orthodox faith as Gnosticism.