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Retroviral DNA Integration

joshua 1 9

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"Recent studies have shown that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and murine leukemia virus (MLV) favor integration near different chromosomal features." How can you use retrovirus as evidence of evolution when retrovirus have "preferences for sites for viral DNA integration in the chromosomes of infected cells."

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.0020060
 

46AND2

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DogmaHunter

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"Recent studies have shown that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and murine leukemia virus (MLV) favor integration near different chromosomal features." How can you use retrovirus as evidence of evolution when retrovirus have "preferences for sites for viral DNA integration in the chromosomes of infected cells."

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.0020060

"Preferences for sites" does not translate into exact locations.

Having said that, are you aware that there are thousands of retrovirusses and that you are talking about just 2?
 
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sfs

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"Recent studies have shown that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and murine leukemia virus (MLV) favor integration near different chromosomal features." How can you use retrovirus as evidence of evolution when retrovirus have "preferences for sites for viral DNA integration in the chromosomes of infected cells."

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.0020060
Because 1) a significant fraction of insertions -- the majority for some viruses -- are not in the preferred regions, and 2) the preferred regions themselves typically include at least millions of bases. The probability of the same virus inserting in exactly the same spot twice is usually much less than one in a million. As an example of the first reason, note this from the paper you're quoting: "For MLV, in contrast, roughly 25% of integration events are near transcription start sites and associated CpG islands, while integration within transcription units is only slightly favored." That means 75% of insertions are not in the favored regions, which are themselves still a sizable part of the genome.
 
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Loudmouth

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"Recent studies have shown that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and murine leukemia virus (MLV) favor integration near different chromosomal features." How can you use retrovirus as evidence of evolution when retrovirus have "preferences for sites for viral DNA integration in the chromosomes of infected cells."

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.0020060

If I said that lightning tends to strike trees, would this be a valid reason to believe that all lightning hits the same tree?

The features that HIV and MLV have a preference for make up a large chunk of the genome. There are hundreds of millions, if not billions of bases within the regions that these viruses target. The chance that two retroviruses will insert into the same base is very unlikely. It certainly wouldn't happen 99.9% of the time, which is the percentage of human ERV's found at the same location in the chimp genome.
 
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Loudmouth

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If I said that lightning tends to strike trees, would this be a valid reason to believe that all lightning hits the same tree?

The features that HIV and MLV have a preference for make up a large chunk of the genome. There are hundreds of millions, if not billions of bases within the regions that these viruses target. The chance that two retroviruses will insert into the same base is very unlikely. It certainly wouldn't happen 99.9% of the time, which is the percentage of human ERV's found at the same location in the chimp genome.

Another reference:

"For HIV the frequency of integration in transcription units ranged from 75% to 80%, while the frequency for MLV was 61% and for ASLV was 57%. For comparison, about 45% of the human genome is composed of transcription units (using the Acembly gene definition)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC509299/

They probably loosened their criteria for transcription units, compared [to] the reference under question, which is why we see a difference in the percentages. Nevertheless, 45% of the human genome is about 1.5 billion bases. If we assume that 100% of HIV insertions happen in transcription units, that still only reduces the chances of two insertions happening at the same base from 1 in 3 billion to 1 in 1.5 billion.
 
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Loudmouth

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Let's look at this from a different angle. Here are the two positions under question:

1. Common ancestry.

2. Two independent insertions at the same base.

As it happens, there are ERV's that we can use to test these hypotheses. In chimps and gorillas we find multiple insertions from the PtERV family of retroviruses. Interestingly, insertions from that retrovirus are NOT found in humans and orangutans. Our two different positions make two different testable hypotheses in this situation.

1. Common ancestry. Since these insertions are not found in the human or orangutan genome, then these insertions must have happened after the chimp lineage split off from the human lineage. If they occurred before this point then they would be found in the human genome. If they occurred at the root of the ape tree, then they would also be found in the orangutan genome. Since they are only found in the chimp and gorilla genomes, this means that they had to occur independently in each species. Therefore, PtERV insertions in the chimp and gorilla genomes should NOT be found at the same location in the chimp and gorilla genomes.

2. Two independent insertions at the same base. If the specificity of retroviral insertion causes ERV's to occur at the same position 99.9% of the time (the rate needed to produce the shared ERV's between the human and chimp genomes), then we should find PtERV insertions at the same location in both the chimp and gorilla genomes.

As you can see, the two positions make the exact opposite prediction. Here is the data:

"Within the limits of this BAC-based end-sequencing mapping approach, 24 sites mapped to similar regions of the human reference genome (approximately 160 kb) and could not be definitively resolved as orthologous or non-orthologous (Table S3). We classified these as “ambiguous” overlap loci (Figure 3). If all 24 locations corresponded to insertions that were orthologous for each pair, this would correspond to a maximum of 12 orthologous loci. The number of non-orthologous loci was calculated as 275/287 (275 + 12) or 95.8%. This is almost certainly a lower-bound estimate owing to the limitation of our BAC-based mapping approach to refine the precise locations of the insertions."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1054887/

The limits of the BAC-based method allow you to determine if two insertions are within about 100k to 200k base pairs of each other. Of the 287 PtERV insertions, 95.8% were not even within hundreds of thousands of base pairs of each other. Already, the independent insertion hypothesis is entirely busted. The authors of the paper then looked at existing genome sequencing to determine if the ones that were close to each other were actually at the same base. They couldn't find a single unambiguous orthologous PtERV shared by chimps and gorillas.

The common ancestor hypothesis is completely supported. The independent insertion hypothesis is thoroughly falsified.
 
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joshua 1 9

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If I said that lightning tends to strike trees, would this be a valid reason to believe that all lightning hits the same tree?
I did not know that DNA was electromagnetic. I though it had to do with chemistry.
 
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joshua 1 9

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That whistling sound you hear well above your head is my point.
You summarized your point so it does not matter if your jabber makes any sense or not. You claim "The common ancestor hypothesis is completely supported. The independent insertion hypothesis is thoroughly falsified."
 
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Loudmouth

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You summarized your point so it does not matter if your jabber makes any sense or not.

Don't you find it interesting that you hold facts in such disdain? Don't you find it interesting that you have to be so dismissive of reality in order to hold on to your religious beliefs?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Don't you find it interesting that you hold facts in such disdain? Don't you find it interesting that you have to be so dismissive of reality in order to hold on to your religious beliefs?
I hold your facts in disdain because I really do not have any way to verify if what you are saying is true or not. Far to often they hide the evidence that contradicts their "truths" and only reveal the evidence that supports their belief. After all I know that evolution is not based on mutations, mistakes, & errors. So if your willing to lie about that then how do I know you are ever telling the truth? With God He is always true. You can always trust in Him. He will not abandon us or leave us stranded. He always has the answer and He always has the solution. Science does not even come close to having solutions and answers. There is a LOT about DNA that we do not know yet. They still call this DNA JUNK DNA. So your saying that JUNK DNA offer conclusive evidence for evolution. Excuse me for being as much as a skeptic as you are and holding you to your own standards. There is to much that is unknown and you are not offering enough evidence to substantiate your claims and opinions.
 
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Loudmouth

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I hold your facts in disdain because I really do not have any way to verify if what you are saying is true or not.

Why wouldn't you? I gave you the paper where the data can be found.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1054887/

The Hominidae clade is a matter of record.

nature09687-f1.2.jpg


According to the standard clade, chimps and humans share the same common ancestor with gorillas. Therefore, if chimps and gorillas inherited PtERV insertions from their common ancestor then humans should have those same insertions since we share the same common ancestor. Humans don't have PtERV insertions which indicates that PtERV insertions had occur after the chimp lineage split off from the human lineage. Again, this is confirmed in the paper I already linked you.

Far to often they hide the evidence that contradicts their "truths" and only reveal the evidence that supports their belief.

If your only refuge is to call people liars without any evidence to back it up, I would say that you have a very poor argument.

After all I know that evolution is not based on mutations, mistakes, & errors. So if your willing to lie about that then how do I know you are ever telling the truth?

What in the world are you talking about?

With God He is always true. You can always trust in Him. He will not abandon us or leave us stranded. He always has the answer and He always has the solution. Science does not even come close to having solutions and answers.

If your god of Creationism is always true, then why do you have to ignore facts and run away from them?

There is a LOT about DNA that we do not know yet. They still call this DNA JUNK DNA. So your saying that JUNK DNA offer conclusive evidence for evolution. Excuse me for being as much as a skeptic as you are and holding you to your own standards. There is to much that is unknown and you are not offering enough evidence to substantiate your claims and opinions.

Why can't ERV's be used for testing common ancestry? Please explain.
 
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joshua 1 9

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If your god of Creationism is always true, then why do you have to ignore facts and run away from them?
There is no reason to run away from it. If that is the way God did it then that is the way He did it. That is why there are Theistic Evolutionists and that is just as valid as Bishop Ussher's book that YEC people base their beliefs on. Darwin was the one that had to ignore facts and run away from them. His friend Lyell did not have any issue at all with the new information that was coming along. He maintained his faith all the way to the end.
 
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Loudmouth

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There is no reason to run away from it. If that is the way God did it then that is the way He did it. That is why there are Theistic Evolutionists and that is just as valid as Bishop Ussher's book that YEC people base their beliefs on.

How are beliefs contradicted by mountains of facts just as valid as beliefs supported by mountains of facts?

Darwin was the one that had to ignore facts and run away from them.

Such as?
 
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joshua 1 9

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How are beliefs contradicted by mountains of facts just as valid as beliefs supported by mountains of facts?
Human faith is fine, but we have God's faith and that is better then Human faith.

Darwin never tried to reconcile his faith with his science.
 
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Loudmouth

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Human faith is fine, but we have God's faith and that is better then Human faith.

Prove that you have God's faith.

Darwin never tried to reconcile his faith with his science.

Really?

"I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice."--Charles Darwin
 
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joshua 1 9

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Prove that you have God's faith.
Prove that you don't.

"I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice."--Charles Darwin
When the going gets tough the tough get going. Darwin just gave up.
 
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