Futurist Only Your end times scenario

[Douggg]

Not according to the Bible prophets, it isn't:
Daniel 7:23 .... this kingdom will control the whole earth, treading it down......
Revelation 13:7-8 ....given authority over every tribe, nation, and race. All the inhabitants of the world will worship him, except those whose names are written in the Book of Life.....

But the EU will eventually control the whole earth as the dominant kingdom. It is a matter of progression on the end times timeline.

The beast in Revelation 13:1-2, the kingdom aspect, is that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU will have gained controlled of all the middle east oil producing states, which is why the body of the beast is made up of parts of the animals of the three historic empires in Daniel 7.

Why is it so difficult to see that it would only take a few big earthquakes, accompanied by devastating tsunamis and storms, to put our entire civilization in jeopardy? Then an OWG will be seen to be the answer to reorganizing everything.
But we who do read the Bible prophesies [presumably] can and should know how God will reset the world this time, as He did in Noah's day.

But I don't read anything in bible prophecy that earthquakes, tsunamies, CME's, will happen as a catalyst for global geo-political change . The big event in the bible, extensively, not just a verse or two, that will change the global geo-politics is Gog/Magog. That will change everything. Islam destroyed. Russia incapacitated. The EU moving into the middle east to take over the oil rich territories, and act as peace occupier. The little horn leader of the EU, embraced by the Jews as their messiah, anointed King of Israel. Peace and safety messianic age (false) begins. The 7 years following Gog/Magog. And the great falling away from Christianity begins.

What the Jews are expecting, from Judaism 101.com, the mashiach,
"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."

What the bible indicates: The little horn will become politcial leader over the ten leader government of the EU. When Gog/Magog becomes eminent, he stages his armies in Greece. Gog/Magog takes place/destroyed by God. The little horn arrives in the middle east with his armies.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101.com site, the mashiach,
"He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

The little horn will have appeared to the Jews to have intended to fight Gog/Maog for them. He will be a Jew.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101.com site. the mashiach,
"He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship"

Islam will be destroyed, Gog/Magog, allowing for the rebuilding of a temple.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101:com site, the mashaich,

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Ezekiel 38:16

The Jews tie the messiah to Gog/Magog. The little horn will become the Antichrist, King of Israel, then revealed as the man of sin, then becomes the beast of Revelation. He has to become the leader of the EU first.

 

[Dave Watchman]

But I don't read anything in bible prophecy that earthquakes, tsunamies, CME's, will happen as a catalyst for global geo-political change .

Rather than attempt to list out the entire tribulation, it might be an idea to zoom in on just the start of it.

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days".​

The "daily sacrifice" is the continual which is completed on a daily basis by "the prince of the host" in Heaven's Temple. It is "by reason of transgression" that "the place of his sanctuary was cast down". The little horn accomplishes this behind the scenes by influencing human rebels to "reach their limit".

The cessation of the daily sacrifice, which began 6000 years ago in the garden, is the result of the abomination of desolation and is seen as the casting down of the censer in Revelation 8. The censer is used at the alter of incense in Heaven's temple which is for corporate atonement, the sins of the world.

Trumpet # 1 falls:

"The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up".​

So Jesus told us to flee to the mountains, that means to get out of the cities right? Do you think that He would turn around and burn up the rural areas that we just flew to? While the text does not say it directly, I'm fairly sure that the cities, especially the ones responsible for setting up the transgressive laws, will be the prime target areas for trumpet one. This will have the side effect of necessitating the installment of the "ten kings".

When assessing the damage from trumpet # 1, the authorities will notice that the destruction did not seem to be of a random nature. Cities, especially ones known for their debauchery, were devastated while the rural areas were missed. Then 21 days later trumpet # 2 falls.

"And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed".​

In a similar fashion to the first, trumpet # 2 destroyed the coastal cities of notoriously wicked places. What remained of the world's governments knew that God was back and not only was He angry but that they had to do something to appease Him. Otherwise they feared that He would kill them all. Then right on schedule 21 days latter trumpet # 3 falls.

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter".​

Another hit from space and the result is the same. This time a nation known for it's atheism is hit and many more die. What remains of the world's leaders attend a conference at the Vatican which has diplomatic relations with 217 countries, his wound from 1798 is finally healed. Then 21 days latter trumpet # 4 falls on the Earth.

"And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise".​

At this time the entire population of the planet is in great fear and they readily hand over their government's authority to that of The Church who in turn divides the nearly destroyed planet into 10 governing zones. Laws are quickly enacted for the purpose of placating the Creator. These laws will be compulsory, nonnegotiable and encompass the globe.

Unfortunately these laws, while seeming to have good intentions, will include the one that we call: the mark of the Beast and will be the exact opposite to what the two witnesses are telling God's people to do. And the time will have come when people will kill you and think they are doing God a favor. Babylon will have risen from the troubled sea of humanity but the man of sin is still a year away.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[keras]

The Jews tie the messiah to Gog/Magog. The little horn will become the Antichrist, King of Israel, then revealed as the man of sin, then becomes the beast of Revelation. He has to become the leader of the EU first.

This theory simply doesn't tie in with Bible prophecy.
The next prophesied event must be Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Revelation 6:12-17. This is sure, because we are so close to the Day the Lord will take action, as we see from how Iran is preparing their weapons and proxies to attack Israel. God will destroy them all, Ezekiel 7:14, and all the Holy Land will be desolated. Joel 1:15-20, Zephaniah 1:18
This will allow the Lord's righteous believers to gather and live in the Land, as Ezekiel 38:8b and 12b tell us. After a few years, the Lord will motivate G/M to attack, so that the nations may know Me and know that I am the Lord. Ezekiel 38:16b & 23.

The new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, occupying all that area given to Abraham, will elect their own leaders: Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
There is no way the AC becomes king of Israel until he conquers them at the mid point if the last 7 years. Zechariah 14:1-2

 

[Douggg]

This theory simply doesn't tie in with Bible prophecy.

Daniel 7, 8, 9 are not in your bible ?
Ezekiel 38/39 are not in your bible ?
Revelation 17, 12, 13 are not in your bible ?

All of those point to the little horn becoming the leader of the EU, the end times roman empire, the 7th king of the Julio Claudian family - first, and the ten leaders with him. There is no CME event in the bible of civilization being altered and a post global devastation of a big portion of it inhabitants setting the stages for the end times. Maybe the plot for a Mad Max film, but not bible prophecy.

Well, the objective of the thread is for everyone to express their end times scenario. Not to resolve anything, I have to remind myself.

 

[keras]

Daniel 7, 8, 9 are not in your bible ?
Ezekiel 38/39 are not in your bible ?
Revelation 17, 12, 13 are not in your bible ?

All of those point to the little horn becoming the leader of the EU, the end times roman empire, the 7th king of the Julio Claudian family - first, and the ten leaders with him. There is no CME event in the bible of civilization being altered and a post global devastation of a big portion of it inhabitants setting the stages for the end times. Maybe the plot for a Mad Max film, but not bible prophecy.

Douggggg, I already gave the scriptures that confirm this last Roman type kingdom will encompass the whole world.
The EU idea went down the tubes after more than ten members joined.
No judgement of fire prophesied? I could post over 70 prophesies that mention fire as the means the Lord will correct civilization. In Noah's day God used water and now, as we are once again, 'as in the days of Noah', He will us fire. Just one prophecy confirms it: 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Douggg]

Douggggg, I already gave the scriptures that confirm this last Roman type kingdom will encompass the whole world.
The EU idea went down the tubes after more than ten members joined.

The EU has done nothing but grown in strength since its inception as the European Common Market. It has evloved more and more toward a United States of Europe. The bible doesn't say ten nations. But ten kings, leaders. Those ten leaders could be over ten regions, some of which made up of two or three countries, to provide equal representation by population.

No judgement of fire prophesied? I could post over 70 prophesies that mention fire as the means the Lord will correct civilization. In Noah's day God used water and now, as we are once again, 'as in the days of Noah', He will us fire. Just one prophecy confirms it: 2 Peter 3:7

What you did I suspect is do a bible word search for "fire" and came up with 70 references. That's the same methodology that some bible scholars am I sure used to determine what is meant by confirm the covenant for 1 week in Daniel 9. Which by searching "confirm", they didn't discoverr Deuteronomy 31:9-13, because the word confirm in not in that text- but in actuality the essence of confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant every 7 years is what that passage is about.

In the days of Noah is referring to the condition of the world being full of violence like back at the time of the flood.

2Peter3:7 is talking about the destruction of the current earth right before the great white throne judgement. Which will come after the thousand years and Satan's last rebellion. So we are at least a thousand years away.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As soon as the EU forms into the ten leader form of government - that is going squash a lot of the other scenario's people have come up with. Keras, what I don't like about your scenario it doesn't come close to Matthew 24. If there was a massive apocalyptic change to the world on the scale as the worldwide flood before the last week of Daniel 9, the bible and Jesus would have made that abundantly known and clear.

 

[tranquil]

The EU has done nothing but grown in strength since its inception as the European Common Market. It has evloved more and more toward a United States of Europe. The bible doesn't say ten nations. But ten kings, leaders. Those ten leaders could be over ten regions, some of which made up of two or three countries, to provide equal representation by population.

What you did I suspect is do a bible word search for "fire" and came up with 70 references. That's the same methodology that some bible scholars am I sure used to determine what is meant by confirm the covenant for 1 week in Daniel 9. Which by searching "confirm", they didn't discoverr Deuteronomy 31:9-13, because the word confirm in not in that text- but in actuality the essence of confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant every 7 years is what that passage is about.

In the days of Noah is referring to the condition of the world being full of violence like back at the time of the flood.

2Peter3:7 is talking about the destruction of the current earth right before the great white throne judgement. Which will come after the thousand years and Satan's last rebellion. So we are at least a thousand years away.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As soon as the EU forms into the ten leader form of government - that is going squash a lot of the other scenario's people have come up with. Keras, what I don't like about your scenario it doesn't come close to Matthew 24. If there was a massive apocalyptic change to the world on the scale as the worldwide flood before the last week of Daniel 9, the bible and Jesus would have made that abundantly known and clear.

1st comes massive apocalyptic change then comes the false christs. That's Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[keras]

The EU has done nothing but grown in strength since its inception as the European Common Market. It has evloved more and more toward a United States of Europe. The bible doesn't say ten nations. But ten kings, leaders. Those ten leaders could be over ten regions, some of which made up of two or three countries, to provide equal representation by population.

The EU has grown in population, not strength: economically it's a disaster zone.
Ignoring the clear Bible verses saying there will be a worldwide empire with ten regions, is your prerogative. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 11:7-8

What you did I suspect is do a bible word search for "fire" and came up with 70 references.

No, I compiled my own Scripture subject reference. The 70 verses are a list of prophesies that state in various ways, the Lord will use fire to judge the world. There are more that detail the effects and results of the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.

In the days of Noah is referring to the condition of the world being full of violence like back at the time of the flood.

The day of Noah were: they ate and drank and got married until the day Noah went into the ark.... Matthew 24:38 But their civilization was degenerate and apostate, just like ours is today!

2Peter3:7 is talking about the destruction of the current earth right before the great white throne judgement. Which will come after the thousand years and Satan's last rebellion. So we are at least a thousand years away.

Peter does go on to say about the NHNE in verse 11 onwards. But 2 Peter 3:7 & 10 are what we can expect next, proved by verses 1-6, where Peter tells us scoffers will come and deny there will be a judgement. Exactly what you, Dougg are doing.

 

[Dave Watchman]

If there was a massive apocalyptic change to the world on the scale as the worldwide flood before the last week of Daniel 9, the bible and Jesus would have made that abundantly known and clear.

"And there shall be signs in the sun,

and in the moon, and in the stars;

The sun shall be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth,

blood and fire and columns of smoke.

"and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood,

and they were cast upon the earth:

and the third part of trees was burnt up,

and all green grass was burnt up".

and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;

the sea and the waves roaring;

Men's hearts failing them for fear,

and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:

for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

(All these are but the beginning of the birth pains)

"and these are but the beginning of the plagues" - duTillet

"seven angels having the seven last plagues,
for in them the wrath of God is complete"
​

If the bowls are the "seven LAST plagues,
then the trumpets are the seven FIRST plagues, the beginning of sorrows.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-a-geopolitical-position.7859904/#post-66912087


This is a scanned translation from 1927. It can be a pain to read but if you start at page 16 "The Genealogy", the 6 following pages should be sufficient to convince one that the du Tillet contains the most accurate text of any version of Matthew.

Chapter 24 begins at page 105 of the pdf.

http://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/Schonfield.pdf

 

[Douggg]

The EU has grown in population, not strength: economically it's a disaster zone.
Ignoring the clear Bible verses saying there will be a worldwide empire with ten regions, is your prerogative. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 11:7-8

Daniel 7:23 says the fourth kingdom devours the entire world. It doesn't say worldwide empire with ten regions. The ten kings, leaders, come to power, before that empire devours the entire world, meaning it becomes the dominant power. It isn't until the little horn has evolved into the beast, that the EU, possibly allied with the United States, becomes the dominant power in the world.

There will be other powers, as in Daniel 11, the beast and his kingdom (the EU occupying the middle east) are attacked by the south, then north, then the kings of the east.

The day of Noah were: they ate and drank and got married until the day Noah went into the ark.... Matthew 24:38 But their civilization was degenerate and apostate, just like ours is today!

Exactly, but that doesn't mean that there is going to be a global disaster that realigns civilization to begin the end times scenario.

Peter does go on to say about the NHNE in verse 11 onwards. But 2 Peter 3:7 & 10 are what we can expect next, proved by verses 1-6, where Peter tells us scoffers will come and deny there will be a judgement. Exactly what you, Dougg are doing.

You are promoting your scenario. Peter was not telling about scoffers of a CME global event forthcoming, that's your creation. The scoffers in verse 2Peter2:3 are scoffing about the last days and Jesus's promise about returning.

 

[Douggg]

If the bowls are the "seven LAST plagues,
then the trumpets are the seven FIRST plagues, the beginning of sorrows.

It doesn't mean it that way. It means that the vials were the seven last plagues shown to John. And there weren't going to be any futher plagues following the 7th vials. The 7th vial is the last judgment on the earth before Jesus descends down to earth, to slay the armies gathered to fight him.

 

[keras]

You are promoting your scenario. Peter was not telling about scoffers of a CME global event forthcoming, that's your creation. The scoffers in verse 2Peter2:3 are scoffing about the last days and Jesus's promise about returning.

I am promoting Peters scenario, immediately after saying how people like you will disbelieve a coming judgement, he says what that judgement/punishment will be. He doesn't mention Jesus' Return. He does say the Day Jesus will judge the nations will come unexpectedly, so it cannot be the Day of His Return as that Day will be known, as 1260 days after the AoD in the Temple. Isaiah 29:5-6

 

[Douggg]

I am promoting Peters scenario, immediately after saying how people like you will disbelieve a coming judgement, he says what that judgement/punishment will be. He doesn't mention Jesus' Return. He does say the Day Jesus will judge the nations will come unexpectedly, so it cannot be the Day of His Return as that Day will be known, as 1260 days after the AoD in the Temple. Isaiah 29:5-6

Here is what the actual text of 2Peter3:3-4 says. It is not talking about a CME event changing civilization before the end times scenario takes place. You need to stop with the false accusations. The great tribulation is coming; I never said anything different; as is the rapture, and Jesus's return.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Do you believe in the promise of his coming to take Christians, who are looking for him, to heaven? No, you are not, you scoff at the idea, if I recall your position correctly.

 

[keras]

Do you believe in the promise of his coming to take Christians, who are looking for him, to heaven? No, you are not, you scoff at the idea, if I recall your position correctly.

I refute un-Biblical notions. The rapture to heaven is one of them.

We have the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation. Unless you want to incur the curse of Revelation 22:18, this is how events will unfold.
I believe the first five Seals are open now. Zechariah 6:1-8 says they are and the historical record proves it. Therefore the Sixth Seal is next and it will be the means that God will use to set up the world for all the prophesied end times events.

 

[iamlamad]

I am promoting Peters scenario, immediately after saying how people like you will disbelieve a coming judgement, he says what that judgement/punishment will be. He doesn't mention Jesus' Return. He does say the Day Jesus will judge the nations will come unexpectedly, so it cannot be the Day of His Return as that Day will be known, as 1260 days after the AoD in the Temple. Isaiah 29:5-6

This too is error. For someone that seems to be such a stickler for scripture, there is no scripture telling that Jesus will come 1260 days after the AoD. That is myth. About all we have is Revelation and "immediately after" the tribulation.

After means after, and NO ONE knows how long after.

 

[iamlamad]

I refute un-Biblical notions. The rapture to heaven is one of them.

We have the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation. Unless you want to incur the curse of Revelation 22:18, this is how events will unfold.
I believe the first five Seals are open now. Zechariah 6:1-8 says they are and the historical record proves it. Therefore the Sixth Seal is next and it will be the means that God will use to set up the world for all the prophesied end times events.

I congratulate you on this: few people realize we are between the 5th and 6th seals.

 

[keras]

This too is error. For someone that seems to be such a stickler for scripture, there is no scripture telling that Jesus will come 1260 days after the AoD. That is myth. About all we have is Revelation and "immediately after" the tribulation.

We have three mentions of that 1260 day period in Revelation; Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 13:5 [as 42 months] Also Daniel 12:11 states that after the AoD is set up there will be 1290 days until the Temple is cleansed. The extra 30 days is needed from the Return to the re-dedication.
An admission of your error would be nice.

I congratulate you on this: few people realize we are between the 5th and 6th seals.

I am glad that you, I and Zechariah agree on this.

 

[iamlamad]

We have three mentions of that 1260 day period in Revelation; Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 13:5 [as 42 months] Also Daniel 12:11 states that after the AoD is set up there will be 1290 days until the Temple is cleansed. The extra 30 days is needed from the Return to the re-dedication.
An admission of your error would be nice.


I am glad that you, I and Zechariah agree on this.

What part of no one knowing the day or hour do you not get? What part of "after" do you not understand?

The days (or months) for the last half of the 70th week is simply not that closely related to when Jesus comes. I know many think Jesus will return on the 1260th day. If He was to return on that exact day, then He did not know what He was saying when He said "no man knows the day nor hour." What He DID say is "immediately after" the tribulation or those days. We don't know exactly what "immediately" means to God. It could be days or weeks or months.

 

[Douggg]

This too is error. For someone that seems to be such a stickler for scripture, there is no scripture telling that Jesus will come 1260 days after the AoD. That is myth. About all we have is Revelation and "immediately after" the tribulation.

After means after, and NO ONE knows how long after.

I think Daniel 12:11-12 indicates Jesus returns to earth 1335 days after the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

 

[iamlamad]

I think Daniel 12:11-12 indicates Jesus returns to earth 1335 days after the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

SOMETHING happens then, but it is only a guess what - for God chose not to tell us. Something happens 1290 days too, but again we don't know what.