Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 5120:

1 Thes. 5:9 adds more, that God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath.

Do you mean that the tribulation will be God's wrath, and that God's wrath will start at the 6th seal of the tribulation?

If so, note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5135:

During the last few years Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron and his team did an excavation underground, at the base of the wall known today as "The Wailing Wall".
During the excavation Eli discovered at Roman coin dated 20 AD, at the bottom of the wall.
Therefore the wall had to be built after 20 AD, which was after the Second temple was completed.

Note that even if this claim is ever proven true, the 20 AD date is still before 70 AD, so that the point is moot. For (whoever built it, or whenever it was built) the Western Wall of the Temple Mount existed at the time Jesus spoke Matthew 24; and so "not one stone" remains unfulfilled.

Also, the Jews are not stupid. They do not make a meaningless wall their most holy place of worship on the earth.

Also, it isn't credible that the coin was found under the Western (or Wailing) Wall of the Temple Mount. For the religious Jews would not permit any digging there, the holiest place of worship for the Jews. Instead, the coin could have been found by digging under a different wall, such as one at the southern end of the Temple Mount.

That is, the religious Jews would not allow archaeologists to literally undermine and create huge mounds of dirt at the holiest place of worship for the Jews (the Western or Wailing Wall of the Temple Mount). So the only way for the archaeologists to dig under that wall would be for them to enter (in the dead of night) with their picks and shovels into the synagogue just off the north end of the Wailing Wall. Then they would have to get through a locked, wrought-iron gate in the eastern wall of this synagogue. (This gate blocks entrance to a tunnel running due east, right under the Muslim Dome of the Rock, in the center of the Temple Mount.) Then the archaeologists would have to go into this tunnel a short distance, and start digging a tunnel at a right angle, southward, along the backside of the Wailing Wall. Then, after some distance, they would have to start digging downward, through the soil just east of the wall, until they reached the bottom of the wall. Then they would have to start digging under the wall, literally "undermining" the holiest place of worship in the world left to the Jews. Then they would have to "discover" the Roman coin under the wall.

All of this would completely outrage the religious Jews, who could not only demand an immediate halt to the undermining of the Wailing Wall, but also demand that a permanent blockage be placed at that gate in the synagogue to the north of the Wailing Wall (if this hasn't already happened). Or, some very extreme elements of the ultra-Orthodox Jews, in their rage at the defilement of the Wailing Wall, and the Temple Mount altogether, could (in the dead of night) break through this gate and use the tunnel behind the gate to place a lot of explosives right under the Muslim Dome of the Rock. They could then detonate these explosives, damaging the Dome enough to forestall its continued use by the Muslims (i.e. it could be condemned by Israeli authorities as being too dangerous to enter). They could then claim that this serious damage was "a holy mission from God", or even "a miraculous earthquake sent by God", in order to ruin the Dome, so that it can finally be removed and the 3rd Jewish temple can be built in its place.

 

[Bible2+]

Douggg said in post 5141:

But we are close to Gog/Magog . . .

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

Douggg said in post 5141:

. . . to be followed by the arrival of Judaism's messiah. who will be the Antichrist.

"Anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

*******

Douggg said in post 5142:

The bible says in 2thessalonians2:3-4, day of the Lord does not happen until the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

 

[BABerean2]

You wrote,
"1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(This places the event at the end of chapter 4 on the Day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in the night, found in 2nd Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages.)"

In a way you are right, for He already came one, and when He comes FOR His bride, it will indeed be the SECOND time He comes - so "second coming" will be true. His "second" coming will come at a time of peace and safety, and that time will be the LAST time for years that anyone will even be thinking of peace and safety. That time ONLY fits a pretrib rapture. It will indeed be the "day of the Lord" as soon as the living in Christ are caught up to meet the dead in Christ. Paul TELLS US this; but it will be before the 70th week begins, NOT after the days of GT Jesus spoke of. WAKE UP! John SAW the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7.

The DAY comes as a thief because JESUS comes as in 1 Thes. 5:2 His coming will be the TRIGGER for the Day. He comes as shown in 1 Thes. 4, and Paul tells us then that the DAY will come with the Sudden Destruction - also His wrath beginning. God said He would not set any appointments but you insist on setting your own.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All these tell me your theory is WAY off from the truth of scripture.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Note that even if this claim is ever proven true, the 20 AD date is still before 70 AD, so that the point is moot. For (whoever built it, or whenever it was built) the Western Wall of the Temple Mount existed at the time Jesus spoke Matthew 24; and so "not one stone" remains unfulfilled.

Also, the Jews are not stupid. They do not make a meaningless wall their most holy place of worship on the earth.

Also, it isn't credible that the coin was found under the Western (or Wailing) Wall of the Temple Mount. For the religious Jews would not permit any digging there, the holiest place of worship for the Jews. Instead, the coin could have been found by digging under a different wall, such as one at the southern end of the Temple Mount.

That is, the religious Jews would not allow archaeologists to literally undermine and create huge mounds of dirt at the holiest place of worship for the Jews (the Western or Wailing Wall of the Temple Mount). So the only way for the archaeologists to dig under that wall would be for them to enter (in the dead of night) with their picks and shovels into the synagogue just off the north end of the Wailing Wall. Then they would have to get through a locked, wrought-iron gate in the eastern wall of this synagogue. (This gate blocks entrance to a tunnel running due east, right under the Muslim Dome of the Rock, in the center of the Temple Mount.) Then the archaeologists would have to go into this tunnel a short distance, and start digging a tunnel at a right angle, southward, along the backside of the Wailing Wall. Then, after some distance, they would have to start digging downward, through the soil just east of the wall, until they reached the bottom of the wall. Then they would have to start digging under the wall, literally "undermining" the holiest place of worship in the world left to the Jews. Then they would have to "discover" the Roman coin under the wall.

"We were about 30 feet under street level and in the raw illumination of some glaring floodlights. Eli pointed to a long wall of huge stone blocks and said, "Most every scholar believes that the stones that you see were built by Herod's men. He then spoke from behind a tenuous smile, "I found a coin dated to 20 AD, as I dug beneath a huge stone block down here under the very lowest layer of foundation stones."

The coin was an ancient bronze and that of Valerius Gratus, Prefect under Tiberius 15-26 AD. The minting date of the coin as its earliest distribution was vintage 20 AD, according to Eli's explanation.

He asked me slowly, "Do you understand what I am saying here?" I paused, surprised at what he had said. "I am telling you that Herod did not build the Western Wall."

I really did not know how to respond. Here was an eminent archeologist who had unearthed a long list of world renowned discoveries in the City of David and elsewhere in Jerusalem, and he was now actually telling me that Herod did not build the Western Wailing Wall."

From the book "Temple" written by Robert Cornuke, page 118

Eli Shukron is the Israeli archeologist who rediscovered the Pool of Siloam and has spent a great deal of time excavating the underground sewer system near Gihon Spring in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Often times the only thing more powerful than scripture or history is tradition...

.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I beg to differ

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Well then, you differ with Luke for his acçount SPECIFICALY identifies the stones as those which ADORNED the temple buildings (21:5-6). They were marble stones that were embedded with gold. Verse 6 CLEARLY indicates that it would be every one of those stones SPECIFICALLY that would be plundered.

Matthew's account CANNOT be misconstrued to contradict Luke as you have done. "All these things" in Matthew's account are identified by Luke as the valuable marble stones which were embedded with gold and which ADORNED the temple buildings. The worthless lime stones, of some which still remain to this day were NOT the subject of the prophecy.

You don't have a leg on which to stand.

 

[iamlamad]

There is no trumpet sounding at the opening of the 6th seal written in Scriptures

You only think this because you don't see Paul's last trump there. John did not see the rapture of the church, so did not hear that trumpet. By the way, there is no gathering of the body of Christ written in Rev. 19

There is no Coming of Jesus mentioned at the opening of the 6th seal.

John did not see it so did not write it, but scriptures show THAT is where Paul's rapture fits. By the way, THERE IS NO RAPTURE shown in Rev. 19. You have to imagine it there. And another by the way, you will MISS the marriage and supper in heaven before Jesus comes.

Paul wrote that the timing is Unto the Coming of the Lord.

Yes, indeed He did, but the coming Paul wrote of does not fit the coming in other scriptures: there are too many differences for them to be the same coming. Besides, God is not the kind of God that would beat up and murder His own bride, much less force them to suffer under His wrath. Time after time He has told us we will be removed or escape from His wrath on earth. HOw? Because we get raptured to heaven. You need to take off your preconceptions and camp out on 1 Thes. 5 until you understand Paul's timing. You do understand, if Jesus comes once more FOR His bride, then again WITH His bride, then the rapture will certainly be at His COMING; just NOT the coming you insist on.

We will meet Jesus unto His Coming ...at the moment of our gathering Jesus will be in the clouds in the air over the ground.

Exactly: His NEXT coming, His SECOND coming, but NOT His coming as seen in Rev. 19.

When Jesus will descend from Heaven with the souls of dead believers as Paul wrote,Jesus will not be in Heaven anymore...but on His way to Earth.

Yes, on his way to the AIR above the earth....this is what Paul tells us. And He will bring the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him. But when He comes in Rev. 19, He ALSO COMES with those ALIVE IN CHRIST who were caught up with the dead in Christ pretrib: ALL His saints are returning with Him...including the Old Testament saints. Including all the angels. The ARMIES of heaven. This coming He is coming for BATTLE, not a wedding. The marriage is over. Posttribbers will MISS IT.

We as Christians are not appointed with God's wrath.

Yet, if you would believe John, God's wrath will begin at the 6th seal. Don't take my word for it, go read it. Then read John 1-3 and discover that the trumpets are a part of the Day of the Lord, and so a part of His wrath. Read Isaiah 2 and discover even the great earthquake at the 6th seal IS INDEED a part of the Day of the Lord and so a part of His wrath. Those people saw the signs, and lived through a great earthquake and KNEW by God's word that this was the beginning of God's wrath and DAY on the earth.

You seem a little to much confident that you will not be TRIED.You are on your way for some big surprises when the -hour of trial- will come.

I believe John: I will be kept from that hour of trial. God has set no appointment for me, and I surely won't set one myself as posttribbers are doing. Did you not every read WHO God's wrath and DAy of the Lord are really for?

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Do you find the Body of Christ in any of these verses? I surely don't. God has no desire that His Kids suffer wrath. Again you need to do a study on His wrath and discover that the entire 70th week is His wrath. God will pull His Kids OUT and take them to safety because it will NOT be as it was in the land of Goshen, This time judgment will come to all the surface of the earth. Just as Paul wrote that NONE will escape the sudden destruction, so none will escape His wrath. God will provide water for those who fled into the wilderness. But NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE can you find that God will protect of provide for those who foolishly missed the pretrib rapture. He has TOLD YOU that you will be overcome. What part of overcome do you not get? You are NOT GOING TO live through those days. You will be caught and tortured, and eventually will either take the mark or lose your head. NO ONE can live 3 1/2 years, or 3 years or 2 years without food or water. All those on the earth will be VERY hungry and VERY thirsty. Why do you think Jesus mentioned a drink of water? It will become a most precious thing because JUDGMENT will be around the planet.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[iamlamad]

There seem to be lot of things that will happen after that the 7 Th trumpet will sound....The 2 witnesses prophesying 42 months... Satan being cast out of Heaven.... and the 7 Vials of the wrath of God come to mind/ which match with thy wrath is come...V18
I don't want to enter into the debate about if Revelation is in sequence or at some point overlap.This debate was done before . i believe that Revelation is in order and not overlapping but at certain point like at the 7th trumpet contain insight of things yet to be done (and thy wrath is come) which is confirmed by the other Chapters following Chapter 11.

Let me explain:
Revelation 11:15-18 about the 7th Trumpet sounds like a list of things yet to be done before that Jesus destroy them that destroy the Earth. (Cleaning the house before establishing His Kingdom with His Saints, so to speak.)

What do you think about that possibilty that the End of the Great Tribulation is not come yet at the sounding of the 7 th trumpet ?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

WHY do you ignore the Rev. 6 verse "the DAY of His wrath has come"? It really says the same thing your wrath verse says....but since it does not fit your theory, you completely ignore it - as if John did not write it.

Go back and go over the facts: Isaiah 2, speaking of the day of the Lord spoke of people going into the holes of the rocks for fear of the Lord....and John wrote almost word for word the same thing. Emphasis here on DAY OF THE LORD. Joel wrote the signs for the Day and at the 6th seal those signs fulfilled the Joel prophecy. Those people that survived the earthquake saw the signs so knew accurately that the DAY was there, it had come. Then God had said that at the Day of the Lord He would DESTROY the planet and the sinners on the planet. As we read the trumpet judgments that is EXACTLY what will happen, PROVING that those people were right in saying "the day of His wrath has come. It HAD COME and every trumpet judgment will be a part of His wrath. But people refuse to repent and God's wrath builds - until the vials are FILLED with His wrath. There is no way around this: the ENTIRE 70th WEEK IS GOD'S WRATH.

 

[iamlamad]

I deny that idea, because such a notion simply isn't scriptural.
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath is at the Sixth Seal. Later comes the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the G.T. After all of that, Jesus will visibly Return for His Millennium reign. He is not seen until then.
This is the correct sequence as stated in Revelation and confirmed by prophesies like Isaiah 61, where Jesus stopped His quote, leaving the Day of vengeance and wrath, as the next prophesied event.
Only the determination of the rapture believers makes them scramble the scriptures to fit their false belief.

Riberra is 100% correct. There is only ONE people of God. Those Jews who accept Jesus are included, but they will be just a minority.

No scrambling except with your theory. Study Paul's rapture timing in 1 thes. 5. The "sudden destruction" is the start of Wrath and the start of the DAY. In fact, His pretrib coming and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the sudden destruction. The Bride will be saved from the sudden destruction that will catch all the rest, because they will get raptured and get to "live together with Him." For all those left behind - CERTAINLY those that were not watching and not believing He could come any day, so were not expecting Him at that time - along with all the sinners and those lukewarm, SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. They will NOT "get salvation" and get raptured. All these will be found SHORT on oil as the five foolish virgins.

You have chosen to not believe Paul's pretrib coming. You will be left behind because you don't believe it. You can STILL make it to heaven, but it will be the hard way - without your head.

 

[iamlamad]

God have only one People -those who believe and are obedient to Him ..-Their names is written in the Book of Life.

God knows the future and knows that some of the Jews living in Israel right now WILL (in the future) be saved and their names will be in the book. Scripture TELLS US this. They will SEE the nail prints in His hands and the hole in His side where He was pierced.

 

[iamlamad]

Except that the trumpets heralding wrath and judgments in Revelation have nothing to do with a trumpet sound heralding salvation and the perfection of the saints. This is where all the confusion lies: apples = oranges.

View attachment 168087View attachment 168088

VERY good post. I love your pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words. Good job!

 

[iamlamad]

You are not communicating very well. What terrible event are you speaking of? Your CME theory? You wrote in the what is your end times scenario thread....
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Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1 It will be the Sixth seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5 It will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Rev. 6:12-17 A small Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jer.9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.
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The bible says in 2thessalonians2:3-4, day of the Lord does not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Has not happened, Keras.

The verse in Isaiah 30:26 may well be applicable to the fourth vial in Revelation 16:8. But the verse in Isaiah 30:26 has nothing to do with the Sixth Seal events.

What you have done is taken a verse Isaiah 30:26 in the tanach, the old testament, and have not put Isaiah 30:26 into context of all the progressive revelation on the end times that God has given since then to clarify the end times picture.

You have taken Isaiah 30:26 and have constructed an end times scenario around it. The problem is, your resulting scenario is in monumental conflict with the rest of the bible.

GREAT choice of words! "Monumental!" Preconceived glasses are SO GOOD and blinding folks to the truth written in Scriptures.

 

[ivebeenshown]

WHY do you ignore the Rev. 6 verse "the DAY of His wrath has come"? It really says the same thing your wrath verse says....but since it does not fit your theory, you completely ignore it - as if John did not write it.

Go back and go over the facts: Isaiah 2, speaking of the day of the Lord spoke of people going into the holes of the rocks for fear of the Lord....and John wrote almost word for word the same thing. Emphasis here on DAY OF THE LORD. Joel wrote the signs for the Day and at the 6th seal those signs fulfilled the Joel prophecy. Those people that survived the earthquake saw the signs so knew accurately that the DAY was there, it had come. Then God had said that at the Day of the Lord He would DESTROY the planet and the sinners on the planet. As we read the trumpet judgments that is EXACTLY what will happen, PROVING that those people were right in saying "the day of His wrath has come. It HAD COME and every trumpet judgment will be a part of His wrath. But people refuse to repent and God's wrath builds - until the vials are FILLED with His wrath. There is no way around this: the ENTIRE 70th WEEK IS GOD'S WRATH.

I don't think we are ignoring chapter 6; rather, we are considering both chapters 6 and 11.

What do you make of the statement "wrath is come" (present and not past tense) and the statement about the time that the dead should be judged? How many times does God judge the dead, in your opinion? Three times? Four times? What are your thoughts?

 

[ivebeenshown]

God knows the future and knows that some of the Jews living in Israel right now WILL (in the future) be saved and their names will be in the book. Scripture TELLS US this. They will SEE the nail prints in His hands and the hole in His side where He was pierced.

The Scriptures say that the names in the book of life have been written from the foundation of the world. There are instances where it is hinted that one can be blotted out or removed from it; are there any instances where one can be added to it?

 

[BABerean2]

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Based on your interpretation the wrath of the Lamb comes before the wrath of Satan and then the wrath of God comes later...


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

(Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.)

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is no wonder your interpretation produces tremendous conflict in scripture...
.

 

[Douggg]

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10),

In Revelation 20, it just says that Satan is released at the end of the thousand years and describes the four quarters of the earth - as Gog and Magog - the nations that Satan deceives. Gog and Magog are not entities themselves. It is just describing the nations of the quarters of the earth, will surround Israel and Jerusalem on all four sides, north, south, east, and west with intent to battle.

So from that we can deduce that the Ezekiel 38/39 pre-70th week invasion is made up of countries north, south, east, and west of Israel.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Ezekiel 38/39 is pre-70th week, because afterwards is 7 years of burning the war implements, and burying the dead for 7 months. Not a fit for the end of the millenium event in Revelation 20:7-9.

Really Bible2, why do you waste your time, continuing with a scenario that is an obvious not fit?

 

[keras]

You are not communicating very well. What terrible event are you speaking of? Your CME theory? You wrote in the what is your end times scenario thread....
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1 It will be the Sixth seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5 It will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Rev. 6:12-17 A small Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jer.9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
The bible says in 2thessalonians2:3-4, day of the Lord does not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Has not happened, Keras.

The verse in Isaiah 30:26 may well be applicable to the fourth vial in Revelation 16:8. But the verse in Isaiah 30:26 has nothing to do with the Sixth Seal events.

What you have done is taken a verse Isaiah 30:26 in the tanach, the old testament, and have not put Isaiah 30:26 into context of all the progressive revelation on the end times that God has given since then to clarify the end times picture.

You have taken Isaiah 30:26 and have constructed an end times scenario around it. The problem is, your resulting scenario is in monumental conflict with the rest of the bible.

I am communicating what the Bible prophets tell us quite well. It is people like yourself, who have made up their minds as to what they think God should do, who can't see it.
Paul is clearly referring to the Return of Jesus for His Mill. reign in 2 Thess 2. That glorious Day should not be confused with the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, that will come years before the Return. The Sixth Seal event is that sudden and shocking Day, prophesied in great detail throughout the Bible. 2 Peter 3:7 says God has reserved the earth for a judgement by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 tells us about this test and Luke 21:34-36 warns us to be aware of its coming.
There will be another CME sunstrike at the 4th Bowl, but the one the Lord will send as Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies describe, will be the world-changing event that commence's the last few years of this age.

I do agree with you that the G/M attack is before the Return of Jesus and the final attack at the end of the Millennium is a type of that event.

 

[keras]

Based on your interpretation the wrath of the Lamb comes before the wrath of Satan and then the wrath of God comes later...

That sequence is correct.
The wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb falls upon the earth at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:16-17
Then, at the mid-point of the last seven years before the Return of Jesus, Satan's wrath comes those Christians who refuse his mark. Revelation 12:17
Finally, after the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the wrath of God is completed. Revelation 15:1

At the glorious Return, wrath is not mentioned, Jesus simple destroys His enemies by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21

 

[ivebeenshown]

It is people like yourself, who have made up their minds as to what they think God should do, who can't see it.

This is just rude. One could easily accuse you of having "made up your mind as to what you think God should do." But these kinds of statements do nothing to further the truth and nothing further the body of Christ's unity in truth.