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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Riberra

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Except that the trumpets heralding wrath and judgments in Revelation have nothing to do with a trumpet sound heralding salvation and the perfection of the saints. This is where all the confusion lies: apples = oranges.
Thats right.
The trumpet sounding in Matthew 24:29-31 is different than the 7 trumpets of Revelation...That trumpet will sound AFTER the Tribulation..This is the Last Trump that Paul is talking about.The trumpet sound heralding salvation and the resurrection /change into incorruptibility/immortality of the Saints and our gathering unto Jesus ...

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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n2thelight

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Except that the trumpets heralding wrath and judgments in Revelation have nothing to do with a trumpet sound heralding salvation and the perfection of the saints. This is where all the confusion lies: apples = oranges.

View attachment 168087View attachment 168088

The 7th is the last thats the confusion....Pauls last is Rev's 7th...Pretribbers must change that as they do a lot of scripture to fit their doctrine
 
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Riberra

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The 7th is the last thats the confusion....Pauls last is Rev's 7th...Pretribbers must change that as they do a lot of scripture to fit their doctrine
n2,it is possible that you have overloked the fact that the Scriptures talk about a Trumpet sounding AFTER the Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 which is different that the 7 trumpets of Revelation....It demolish totally the pre-trib rapture theory doctrine.Look out the reaction of the pre-tribulation rapture promotors when they finally see the thruth.
 
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Job8

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n2,it is possible that you have overloked the fact that the scripture talk about a trumpet sounding AFTER the Tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31which is different that the 7 trumpets of Revelation..It demolish totally the pre-trib theory doctrine. Look out the reaction of the pre-tribulation rapture promotors when they finally see the thruth.
Except that this trumpet is for the elect from among the Jews. That is why Christ sends angels to gather them from the four corners of the earth ("four winds") to gather to Israel. But for the Church, He comes personally to meet them in the air. Big difference.

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:9-12).
 
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Riberra

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Except that this trumpet is for the elect from among the Jews. That is why Christ sends angels to gather them from the four corners of the earth ("four winds") to gather to Israel. But for the Church, He comes personally to meet them in the air. Big difference.

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:9-12).
What Ezechiel did not known at the time is that the Gentiles believers are now grafted into the Olive tree...which is Israel.
Ezechiel tallk effectively like Paul about the RESURRECTION from the graves of the People of God ie the whole house of Israel which the gentiles believers are now part of ---.that will happen in the end time....not before it.
 
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Job8

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What Ezechiel did not know at the time is that the Gentiles believers are now grafted into the Olive tree...which is Israel
Ezekiel did not have to know anything about the Church. He received His revelations and commandments directly from God. And it is God who is telling Ezekiel that a day will come when the Jews will be gathered to the land of Israel from "the four winds" (around the world). That is exactly what we see in Matthew 24:31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a lot more in Ezekiel about this matter, but you must be prepared to believe it, and not dismiss it, and confuse the Church with Israel.
 
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Riberra

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Ezekiel did not have to know anything about the Church. He received His revelations and commandments directly from God. And it is God who is telling Ezekiel that a day will come when the Jews will be gathered to the land of Israel from "the four winds" (around the world). That is exactly what we see in Matthew 24:31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a lot more in Ezekiel about this matter, but you must be prepared to believe it, and not dismiss it, and confuse the Church with Israel.

God have only one People -those who believe and are obedient to Him ..-Their names is written in the Book of Life.
 
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keras

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That is because you deny that the 1 Thes. 4 coming is before John's verse of "the day of His wrath has come." In fact, His coming will be the TRIGGER for Day of His wrath.
I deny that idea, because such a notion simply isn't scriptural.
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath is at the Sixth Seal. Later comes the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the G.T. After all of that, Jesus will visibly Return for His Millennium reign. He is not seen until then.
This is the correct sequence as stated in Revelation and confirmed by prophesies like Isaiah 61, where Jesus stopped His quote, leaving the Day of vengeance and wrath, as the next prophesied event.
Only the determination of the rapture believers makes them scramble the scriptures to fit their false belief.

Riberra is 100% correct. There is only ONE people of God. Those Jews who accept Jesus are included, but they will be just a minority.
 
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n2thelight

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n2,it is possible that you have overloked the fact that the Scriptures talk about a Trumpet sounding AFTER the Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 which is different that the 7 trumpets of Revelation....It demolish totally the pre-trib rapture theory doctrine.Look out the reaction of the pre-tribulation rapture promotors when they finally see the thruth.

Yes the trumpet is after the trib,the 7th,the same one as the last that Paul spoke of....

Unless someone can show me an 8th,the last has to be the 7th,of Rev....
 
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Psalm3704

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Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

BAB2, what did Jesus' disciples come to show Him in Matthew 24:1?

Just by looking at the verse, I can tell you for a fact, Jesus was not referring to the sanctuary. The wordings alone in that verse proves preterism is hoax.


During the last few years Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron and his team did an excavation underground, at the base of the wall known today as "The Wailing Wall".
During the excavation Eli discovered at Roman coin dated 20 AD, at the bottom of the wall.
Therefore the wall had to be built after 20 AD, which was after the Second temple was completed.

Eli Shukron has stated that the wall could not be part of the Jewish temple, for this reason.

The one thing often times more powerful than scripture and history, is tradition...

Thousands of Roman soldiers were needed to police the city of Jerusalem, during the time of Christ.
There is no way that many soldiers could have been quartered within the space provided, in the drawing posted above. A much larger Fort Antonia would have been required.

If we would believe what Jesus said above, we could find the truth...
.

You certainly got some faulty knowledge of the temple. Eli Shukron's find means nothing as the temple's decoration was not fully completed until around 62-64 AD, a few years before the romans destroyed it in 70 AD. All you've written only reveals a possibility that one of the temple's decorator dropped a 20 AD coin while working on the temple by the wailing wall sometimes between 20 AD to 64 AD.


The building was begun in 19 B.C. and finished in 10 years, but the work of decoration was not completely finished until A.D. 64. Six years later in A.D. 70, the Romans burned down and destroyed the temple at Jerusalem and it has never been rebuilt since.

http://www.todayscatholicnews.org/2009/12/a-history-of-the-new-temple-built-by-king-herod-the-great/

While the main part of Herod's rebuilding was completed before his death in 4 BC, the work went on for more than 60 years after that. When Jesus visited the Temple at the first Passover of his ministry it was said that the place had by then been under construction for 46 years. The work was not entirely finished until 63 AD, only 7 years before the destruction of the entire Temple in 70 AD.

http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLEHerods_Temple00000006.htm

The construction of all this work occupied, according to John ii. 20, forty-six years; in reality, however, it was not completed until the procuratorship of Albinus (62-64 C. E.), more than eighty years after its commencement. Less than a decade later (70) it was destroyed by fire during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14304-temple-of-herod

During a Passover visit by Jesus the Jews replied that it had been under construction for 46 years. It is possible that the complex was only a few years completed when the future Emperor Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple

**********************************

Basically this is what you think happened. The temple was completely finished before Christ came. Then around 20 AD the wailing wall was built because a 20 AD coin was found there. This is your proposal the wailing wall and the temple are not together.

All I got to say is ROFL!!!

Get your facts straight BAB2. The construction of the Temple was completed (including the wailing wall) by Herod's decree before Christ was born but the decorations of the temple (including the wailing wall) took another 60 plus years to finish ending between 62-64 AD.











.​
 
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Riberra

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Yes the trumpet is after the trib,the 7th,the same one as the last that Paul spoke of....

Unless someone can show me an 8th,the last has to be the 7th,of Rev....
There seem to be lot of things that will happen after that the 7 Th trumpet will sound....The 2 witnesses prophesying 42 months... Satan being cast out of Heaven.... and the 7 Vials of the wrath of God come to mind/ which match with thy wrath is come...V18
I don't want to enter into the debate about if Revelation is in sequence or at some point overlap.This debate was done before . i believe that Revelation is in order and not overlapping but at certain point like at the 7th trumpet contain insight of things yet to be done (and thy wrath is come) which is confirmed by the other Chapters following Chapter 11.

Let me explain:
Revelation 11:15-18 about the 7th Trumpet sounds like a list of things yet to be done before that Jesus destroy them that destroy the Earth. (Cleaning the house before establishing His Kingdom with His Saints, so to speak.)

What do you think about that possibilty that the End of the Great Tribulation is not come yet at the sounding of the 7 th trumpet ?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 
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Jack Terrence

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...So the Greek word tells us that it means a structure. In that case, I believe that, as used in Matt. 24:1, the word includes the retaining wall. Therefore, we must conclude that this prophecy was not fulfilled in 70 AD. It is as simple as that. God’s prophecies are always fulfilled exactly, not approximately. It is not true that there are no stones left upon another in the structures pertaining to the temple, therefore this prophecy was not fulfilled in 70 A.D.

The argument is made that our Lord was speaking of those very stones that would be destroyed and those very stones were destroyed in 70 A.D. But as we have seen above, those stones were not totally destroyed because the western wall still stands.
Jesus was NOT speaking about every stone. He was speaking ONLY about the stones that ADORNED the buildings. Every stone that ADORNED the buildings was plundered by the Romans for the gold. Therefore, the prophecy was ENTIRELY fulfilled.

See Luke 21:5
 
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n2thelight

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There seem to be lot of things that will happen after the 7 Th trumpet will sound....The 2 witnesses prophesying 42 months... Satan being cast out of Heaven.... and the 7 Vials of the wrath of God come to mind/ which match with thy wrath is come...V18
I don't want to enter into the debate about if Revelation is in sequence or at some point overlap.This debate was done before . i believe that Revelation is in order and not overlapping but at certain point like at the 7th trumpet contain insight of things yet to be done and confirmed by the other Chapters following Chapter 11.

Let me explain:
Revelation 11:15-18 about the 7th Trumpet sounds like a list of things yet to be done before that Jesus destroy them that destroy the Earth. (Cleaning the house before establishing His Kingdom with His Saints, so to speak.)

What do you think about that possibilty that the End is not come yet at the sounding of the 7 th trumpet ?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

satan gets kicked out of heaven at the 6th trump Christ returns at the 7th....The 2 witnesses prophecy also before the 7th trump....As a matter of fact the 7th sounds 3 1/2 days after the 2 witnesses are called up to heaven....

The end of this age is at the 7th trump,yes things will happen after however the 7th is still the last to be sounded
 
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Riberra

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satan gets kicked out of heaven at the 6th trump
Satan being cast out of Heaven is mentioned only in Chapter 12....Which is after that the 7th Trumpet sounded in Revelation 11:15

Revelation 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/quote]
 
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n2thelight

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Jesus was NOT speaking about every stone. He was speaking ONLY about the stones that ADORNED the buildings. Every stone that ADORNED the buildings was plundered by the Romans for the gold. Therefore, the prophecy was ENTIRELY fulfilled.

See Luke 21:5

I beg to differ

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

 
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Bible2+

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Psalm3704 said in post 5107:

70 AD was never a fulfillment as Christ addressed not just the sanctuary of the temple alone, He mentioned the great buildings will be destroyed with not one stone on top of each other . . .

That's right.

The end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5132:

The area of the temple and the Wailing Wall which is the Western Wall is not part of the Antonia Fortress. The fort is on the northern side and the western wall is on........well, the west side!

Very good.

That's right.
 
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Bible2+

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Short Timer said in post 5109:

OK, then why don't you "EXPLAIN" to "Everybody" why a temple is rebuild . . .

Because some Jews still want to (mistakenly) try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, even though it was completely and forever abolished on Jesus' Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been very careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call ) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason that the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in "Samaria and Judaea" (also called the "West Bank"), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. (Any such handover won't happen without a removal of Netanyahu from power, possibly by assassination.) For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance. But if down the road, pressure from the Arab masses for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all of the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state.)

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert total Jewish control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, all armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount; they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

Short Timer said in post 5109:

Why doesn't Jesus allow the devil to kill all those who confess Jesus in the church, as the devil will during the trib???

Note that the devil won't do that during the trib.

Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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Postvieww said in post 5119:

I would challenge anyone to show one scripture in the entirety of the word of God the speaks of multiple, or phases concerning the resurrection of the righteous dead. I understand your point about progressive revelation, but disagree because Jesus only spoke of the resurrection “at the last day” John 6.

In John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, note that the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera: G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

The "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
 
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