Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

This is the RESURRECTION NOT the rapture.The rapture (caught up to meet Jesus in the air)happen few second after the resurrection and the change of the living.

I don't think you read my post correctly. The living can't be resurrected...only translated, raptured.

In my post, I explained that the resurrection was for them who are asleep in Christ.

For those who are alive and remain, the rapture is for them. As you say, a few seconds (we can assume) after them who are asleep in Christ are resurrected.

How long the length of time in heaven, after the rapture/resurrecton takes place, is a separate, but related issue . It not likely to be exactly seven years, imo. But who am I to say for sure.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually, would you not say that Jesus was speaking to the Jews, as the Church was not existing then as he was speaking to them? Of course, a big part of the early Church were Jews, so I would not say that what you say effectively is incorrect.

Those verses in Luke 21 are about the 70 ad destruction of Jersualem. After which the Jews were lead away into all nations.

Differently, the Matthew 24 verses, to flee to the mountains, regarding the AOD being setup to be worshiped, are after the Jews have been lead away to all nations and the gospel preached unto all nations. That warning to flee would not apply to the church which is worldwide, but to the Jews living there in Judea as they are occupying the land when the AOD takes place.

The AOD is definitely time of the end, because it says so in Daniel 12.

We could say that Christ was speaking to 4 Jews, who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church, already spoken of in Matthew chapter 16.
He was not speaking to the Jews in general or the Jews 2,000 years into the future.

Every time we see the word "desolation" in the Bible, it does not refer to the same event.

During the time of Christ the Jews did celebrate Hanukkah to commemorate the rededication of the temple after Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 167 BC by placing a statue in the temple and having a pig slaughtered on the altar, as is recorded in the Book of Daniel and the writings of the Maccabees.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

The three Gospel accounts are speaking of the same event, because we have the same warning to flee in the passage.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Every occurrence of the word "desolation" does not refer to the same event from Daniel, as seen in the verse below.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


If the AOD is at the time of the end, it will be the third occurrence.

.

 

[Douggg]

We could say that Christ was speaking to 4 Jews, who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church, already spoken of in Matthew chapter 16.
He was not speaking to the Jews in general or the Jews 2,000 years into the future.

Why wasn't Jesus's words intended for Jews in general?

Luke 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Luke 21:37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

 

[Psalm3704]

I never was very bright. Based on your comment, it looks like I have some company below...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. KJV

1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. NKJV

1Co 15:23 This will happen to each person in his own turn. Christ is the first, then at his coming, those who belong to him will be made alive. GW

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. ESV

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. ASV

1Co 15:23 But euery man in his owne order: the first fruites is Christ, afterward, they that are of Christ, at his coming shall rise againe. Geneva

1Co 15:23 But each one will be raised in proper order: Christ, first of all; then, at the time of his coming, those who belong to him. GNB

They all seem to think Christ is the firstfruits...
.

BAB2, you're still missing what that verse means even with all those translations you listed. They all say differently from what you think it means.





.

 

[iamlamad]

This is the RESURRECTION NOT the rapture.The rapture (caught up to meet Jesus in the air)happen few second after the resurrection and the change of the living.

There is no trip to Heaven and a 7 years staying there mentionned by Paul....

Jesus descend from Heaven with the souls of dead believers....they will be resurrected ...we will be changed while alive and we are gathered to meet Jesus in the air unto His unique coming yet to come.

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Verse 16 = resurrection
Verse 17 = rapture

 

[iamlamad]

Actually, would you not say that Jesus was speaking to the Jews, as the Church was not existing then as he was speaking to them? Of course, a big part of the early Church were Jews, so I would not say that what you say effectively is incorrect.

Those verses in Luke 21 are about the 70 ad destruction of Jersualem. After which the Jews were lead away into all nations.

Differently, the Matthew 24 verses, to flee to the mountains, regarding the AOD being setup to be worshiped, are after the Jews have been lead away to all nations and the gospel preached unto all nations. That warning to flee would not apply to the church which is worldwide, but to the Jews living there in Judea as they are occupying the land when the AOD takes place.

The AOD is definitely time of the end, because it says so in Daniel 12.

It is not a complete mystery. Daniel 9:27 tells us the daily sacrifice will cease. Paul tells us the man of sin, a Gentile, will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is god, thereby defiling the temple and causing the daily sacrifice to cease. John did not see this and did not write of it, but it will happen on earth when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark that time in heaven. It will be the exact point that divides the week into two 1260 day periods.

 

[Riberra]

I don't think you read my post correctly. The living can't be resurrected...only translated, raptured.

In my post, I explained that the resurrection was for them who are asleep in Christ.

For those who are alive and remain, the rapture is for them. As you say, a few seconds (we can assume) after them who are asleep in Christ are resurrected.

How long the length of time in heaven, after the rapture/resurrecton takes place, is a separate, but related issue . It not likely to be exactly seven years, imo. But who am I to say for sure.

There is not rapture to Heaven....Only a caught up in the air happening after the resurrection (if dead) and the changing into imortality for the believers still alive unto the coming of the Lord.

This is the Mystery of the Resurrection.
-The souls of dead believers will receive their immortal physical body.
-Those alive and remain will be changed into immortal physical body.

 

[Riberra]

Verse 16 = resurrection

True.

Verse 17 = rapture

Caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the AIR.No trip to Heaven after the believers' resurrection and the changing of the believers alive and remain.

The final result is an immortal physical body for both the dead in Christ (resurrected)and those in Christ that will still be alive Unto the Coming of Jesus.

Mystery solved, thanks Paul.

 

[BABerean2]

Why wasn't Jesus's words intended for Jews in general?

Luke 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Luke 21:37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

Mar 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

.

 

[Douggg]

This is the Mystery of the Resurrection.
-The souls of dead believers will receive their immortal physical body.
-Those alive and remain will be changed into immortal physical body.

No, it is not a mystery of the Resurrection. It is the mystery of them who are alive, the changing of them, the rapture.

I can show you plenty of places before Paul's revealing of the mystery, where it was known that the dead would be resurrected. It was well known that the dead will be resurrected.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

But what you don't find is what happens to the living. That's the mystery that Paul revealed. Which is the mystery of the rapture.

 

[Douggg]

Mar 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

.

You had been talking about Luke 21, which I pointed out was before the audience of all the people. Which the Jews in general would have heard what Jesus had to say about what turned out to be fulfilled in 70AD.

Now, if you are going to switch chapters to Mark 13 - that doesn't negate that all the people had heard what Jesus has said in Luke 21 there at the temple.

Mark 13 is a different setting.... Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here.

So that is a different setting.

 

[Douggg]

The final result is an immortal physical body for both the dead in Christ (resurrected)and those in Christ that will still be alive Unto the Coming of Jesus.

Mystery solved, thanks Paul.

What you are not grasping is that the coming of Jesus for the Rapture/Resurrection , separate from the Second Coming back down to earth - is part of the mystery.

 

[Riberra]

What you are not grasping is that the coming of Jesus for the Rapture/Resurrection , separate from the Second Coming back down to earth - is part of the mystery.

Nowhere Paul is talking about a "separate coming".The words Paul use are UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD.
The "separate coming" exist only in the imagination of the escapists.

 

[Riberra]

No, it is not a mystery of the Resurrection. It is the mystery of them who are alive, the changing of them, the rapture.

I can show you plenty of places before Paul's revealing of the mystery, where it was known that the dead would be resurrected. It was well known that the dead will be resurrected.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

But what you don't find is what happens to the living. That's the mystery that Paul revealed. Which is the mystery of the rapture

The final outcome is that both the living (still alive)and the dead in Christ will receive their immortal physical body Unto the Coming of the Lord .....Not a mystery trip to Heaven imagined by the escapists that you call "rapture of the Church before the Tribulation."

 

[keras]

What you are not grasping is that the coming of Jesus for the Rapture/Resurrection , separate from the Second Coming back down to earth - is part of the mystery.

Riberra's point is: this event is not a removal to heaven.
At the second coming, which is the Return in glory, Paul tells us that there will be a rising to meet Jesus. As He has just left heaven, that meeting cannot be there, but as we see from Matthew 24:31, the Lord's people are gathered from the ends of the earth, [those who remain alive] and from heaven. [the souls of the dead martyr's] They join with Jesus for the wedding feast, Revelation 19:6-9 and then reign with Him on earth, Revelation 4:10, for the 1000 year Millennium.

Prior to all that, there is a 'coming' when He will not be seen: The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, a terrible Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Psalms 11:4-6 On that Day, Jesus gets His blood splashed garments, Isaiah 63:1-6, which he is wearing at the Return. Revelation 19:13 [no laundry service in heaven, it seems!]

 

[BABerean2]

You had been talking about Luke 21, which I pointed out was before the audience of all the people. Which the Jews in general would have heard what Jesus had to say about what turned out to be fulfilled in 70AD.

Now, if you are going to switch chapters to Mark 13 - that doesn't negate that all the people had heard what Jesus has said in Luke 21 there at the temple.

Mark 13 is a different setting.... Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here.

So that is a different setting.

Do not be deceived by minor differences.
They are clearly three different accounts of the same conversation.


Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.





Mar 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.




Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
.

 

[n2thelight]

Subject of the entire chapter, then what is the parable of the fig tree that was fulfilled in 70 AD doing there??

Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Why would the church be worried about traveling on the Sabbath, only the Jews, under the law, limited the number of steps/distance you could travel on the sabbath???

Why did God dealing with the Jews and the law both stop when Jesus came, and why does the fulness of the Gentiles have to occur before the blinders come off Israel so that God can finish Daniels prophecy????

Why is it a "Spiritual death", a "living sacrifice" of the "Body of sin" for the church to be saved,

but a "literal death" of the "Body of sin" for people beig saved in the trib???

Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

From the AOD until the end of the trib is 42 months, 1260 days, anyone who knows scripture and sees the AOD can count the "days" and know within a day or two of when Jesus is coming,

There is no such "schedule" for the rapture of the church.

Best burn some more midnight oil.

I could say a lot about this,but I think I shall leave it alone for now,but just so you know,in ad70 the temples were not totally destroyed,and won't be until Christ feet touch the Mount........

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 5079:

Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Note that Matthew 24:20 doesn't require that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the future time that Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion, when, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

Matthew 24:19-20 means that it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or gasoline), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. Also, by the time that Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that it is a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see this as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5082:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he is referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

BABerean2 said in post 5082:

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Regarding "Judaea", note that this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Luke 21:21, like Matthew 24:16, refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Douggg]

Riberra's point is: this event is not a removal to heaven.

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

1. There is the coming of Jesus to take them who are live to the place he prepared in his Father's house - which has many mansions. Which is in heaven. Which no-one one here from no-taken-to-heaven camp have offered any explanation for where his Father's house is - except it is obviously in heaven.

2. The text in 1thessalonians4:16-17 says the (translated) living are caught up (a) to meet the resurrected saints in the clouds (b) from there, together, to meet Jesus in the air. It doesn't say in the text of 1thessalonians4:16-17 that they are then taken to heaven, nor descend as a group back down to earth.

That they ascend to heaven is in the passage about Jesus's "coming" for the living saints in John 14:1-3.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The are numerous passages in the four gospels of Jesus saying where the Father is - and that is in Heaven. Including the opening to the Lord's prayer.... "Our Father which art in heaven". So the Father's house is in heaven - and in the Father's house are where the many mansions are.

Jesus said he goes to prepare a place for us - so he obviously was talking about a place he presently was not - which he was speaking to the disciples here on earth - that he would go from. And to the place he would go to - heaven - and from his Father's house, would "come again" to take the living saints to heaven.

At the second coming, which is the Return in glory, Paul tells us that there will be a rising to meet Jesus.

Again, there is nothing in 1thessalonians4:13-18 about Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection to being doing so in glory that every eye shall see him.

As He has just left heaven, that meeting cannot be there,

The heaven Jesus leaves from is the third heaven. No-one is saying that the meeting is in the third heaven. The meeting with Jesus is in the air, the second heaven. The clouds where the resurrected and raptured saints join together, before continuing to meet Jesus in the air, is in the first heaven (the earth's atmosphere) - which Jesus never descends into the clouds in the text of 1thessalonians4:13-18.

but as we see from Matthew 24:31, the Lord's people are gathered from the ends of the earth, [those who remain alive] and from heaven. [the souls of the dead martyr's] They join with Jesus for the wedding feast, Revelation 19:6-9 and then reign with Him on earth, Revelation 4:10, for the 1000 year Millennium.

But it doesn't say in the the text of Matthew 24:31 that that souls come from heaven - to be gathered the angels, which is also a misfit to the rapture/resurrection. There is an almost exact match in Deuteronomy 30 of the language of gathering from one corner of heaven to the other as referring to the scattered children of Israel, which explains who is being gathered - by the angels, after Jesus has returned.

Prior to all that, there is a 'coming' when He will not be seen: The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, a terrible Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Psalms 11:4-6 On that Day, Jesus gets His blood splashed garments, Isaiah 63:1-6, which he is wearing at the Return. Revelation 19:13 [no laundry service in heaven, it seems!]

From the time the cosmos parts in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, Jesus is seen by the entire earth. He doesn't disappear from sight after that. His appearance in heaven (the third heaven) for all to see Him, will be the driver for the kings of the earth to gather their armies to make war on Jesus. There is no invisible return of Jesus to earth to carry out Judgements.