Short Timer said in post 5032:
but an event that involved only the "Body of Christ" and the blinders not coming off Israel until after the "Fulness (of time) for the Gentiles, or Rapture,
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . .
In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).
When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved,
elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).
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Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).
All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.
Short Timer said in post 5032:
People who don't believe in a Pre trib rapture can't know much about scripture or the Feast, which also prefigure the Pre trib rapture with the "Feast of trumpets".
Note that all of the Old Covenant feasts, including the feast of trumpets, can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring any pre-tribulation rapture.
For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).
The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).
The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).
The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).
The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).
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Short Timer said in post 5042:
Pre trib:
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).
Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.
For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.
Short Timer said in post 5042:
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Note that Matthew 24:42, like the similar Matthew 24:36,44, refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only
if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the
if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).
Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?
Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.
Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).
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Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).
