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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Postvieww

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Comparisons below copied from one of my previous posts.


When Matt 24:29 “ Immediately after the tribulation”

When Rev. 6:12 “when he had opened the sixth seal”


What Matt24:29 “shall the sun be darkened”

What Rev. 6:12 “the sun became black as sackcloth”


What Matt. 24:29 “the moon shall not give her light”

What Rev. 6:12 “the moon became as blood”


What Matt.24:13 “the stars shall fall from heaven”

What Rev. 6:13 “stars of heaven fell unto the earth”


What Matt.24:29 “the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

What Rev. 6:14 “the heaven departed as a scroll”


What Matt.24:30 “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn”

What Rev 6:15 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains”

Because two events in scripture do not have identical wording does not prove they are not the same event!

1 Corin 15:51-52 compare 1 Thess 4:15-18
Several differences in wording but yet most agree, the same event.
 
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BABerean2

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There is no rapture, no physical resurrection . Only spiritual resurrection and regeneration.

If you are promoting "Full Preterism", then be aware that those who sponsor this forum have determined that this doctrine may not be discussed.

It is considered a heretical doctrine by many of us here.

If you think Jesus Christ is not coming back to this earth, then you need to do some serious Bible study...
.
 
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Short Timer

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I may well be overcome should that occur in my lifetime, but the point remains that Paul said there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power.


Which coming???

Most here will admit to a rapture to meet Jesus in the air, then claim those rapture turn around and return back to the ground with Jesus and say the rapture is at the second coming.

Problem is, they don't have any scripture to support this "Popcorn rapture", they admit that the rapture take place sometime before Jesus actually returns, but places it at the end on the trib instead of "pre trib".

Israel has known about the second coming ever since Moses wrote his books, but they expected the Messiah to come on the Seventh day/Sabbath day, the 7th thousand year day from Adam, not in the evening of the "Fourth day" from Adam.

And that is part of the reason Jesus was rejected as Messiah, his coming at a "TIME" that was plainly written in scripture but not revealed until he came,

But even after it was revealed some "Refused" to accept his coming as Messiah because "THEY" couldn't find it in scripture and rejected what scripture supported it and even God as the "Second witness".

Now scripture reveals a "Mystery" coming of Jesus to get this "Mystery" church "out of the way" that is plainly written in scripture but "THEY" can't find in scripture and reject what scripture does support it and even God (Spirit) as the Second witness.

The same reasons that "blinded Israel" to this "COMING" of the Messiah in the Fourth day, a "TIME" they couldn't find in scripture,

Is the same reason most here are "Blinded" to the "TIME" the Messiah "COMES" to get the Church.

Everybody knows about the second coming of the Messiah on the 7th day, but the coming of Jesus on the fourth day, Gentile church and returning to get the church has nothing to do with his coming on the seventh day/second coming,

that's why the coming "pre trib rapture" "WAS" and still "IS", a "Mystery" to Jews and most Christians alike.

Jews can't explain his "Coming".."PRE seventh day",

most Christians can't explain his "Coming".."PRE trib".

But why let a "little ignorance" prevent either from preaching what "Seemeth right" to them?????
 
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ivebeenshown

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What passage are you referring to ?
1 Thessalonians. "To wait for His Son from Heaven", "Lord Jesus Christ at his coming", "the coming of Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints", "the coming of the Lord", "shall descend from heaven", "the coming of the Lord."

He says "you know well it comes as a thief in the night", as Jesus used a parable of a thief in the night to describe his coming. Jesus spoke three times of his coming and all were to be in power and glory. He said his coming would be like the days of Noah or of Lot, where all were suddenly destroyed.
 
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BABerean2

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Now scripture reveals a "Mystery" coming of Jesus to get this "Mystery" church "out of the way" that is plainly written in scripture but "THEY" can't find in scripture and reject what scripture does support it and even God (Spirit) as the Second witness.

The same reasons that "blinded Israel" to this "COMING" of the Messiah in the Fourth day, a "TIME" they couldn't find in scripture,

Is the same reason most here are "Blinded" to the "TIME" the Messiah "COMES" to get the Church.

Everybody knows about the second coming of the Messiah on the 7th day, but the coming of Jesus on the fourth day, Gentile church and returning to get the church has nothing to do with his coming on the seventh day/second coming,

that's why the coming "pre trib rapture" "WAS" and still "IS", a "Mystery" to Jews and most Christians alike.

Jews can't explain his "Coming".."PRE seventh day",

most Christians can't explain his "Coming".."PRE trib".

The timing of the gathering of the Church was not a mystery to Paul.
He said it was at the "last trumpet".
Get out your Bible and find the "last" trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

It is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ.
It is also the time of God's wrath and the judgment of the dead.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



In Revelation chapter 10 the Apostle John said the last trumpet would be the time at which "the Mystery" is finished.




Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


The Church today is not a Gentile Church. It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles as it was in the first century.

Many Christians cannot explain the PRE trib rapture, because a 7 year stay in heaven is not found within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

The idea came from the "vision" of a sick 15 year old girl in 1830.
The "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites was adopted by John Darby and brought to America around the time of the Civil War.

Based on Romans chapter 11, the only way modern Jews can be saved is by being grafted back into the olive tree, containing the Israelites and Gentiles who have placed their faith in Christ.

The New Blood Covenant of Hebrews 8:6, is the same covenant found in Romans chapter 11.

There is no other way to be saved. It is the one and only Gospel and will be in effect until Christ's Second Coming.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:


Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.





Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


.
 
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The timing of the gathering of the Church was not a mystery to Paul.
He said it was at the "last trumpet".
Get out your Bible and find the "last" trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (voice) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

My bible say this is "Voice of God" (Jesus) not some angel blowing on a trumpet.


And "Knowledge" tell me that only the "Voice of God" can call people from the grave/resurrect them.


Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

What is this "Trump of God", an angel blowing on a trumpet, or the "Voice of God"????

I doubt that you know what an archangel is or who is the number one archangel in Heaven.


It is also the time of God's wrath and the judgment of the dead.

Then why does the scripture say the unsaved dead stay dead at the second coming until the thousand years are over??????


In Revelation chapter 10 the Apostle John said the last trumpet would be the time at which "the Mystery" is finished.

Finished for who, the world or the church???

Jesus/church/rapture/scriptures are no mystery to those who have ears to hears,

Jesus's coming and establishing the church and then taking the church out of the way of God finishing Daniel's prophecy with Israel, is only a mystery to those who don't have ears to hear.


The Church today is not a Gentile Church. It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles as it was in the first century.

So I guess God really didn't use a people who are not a people to make Jews jealous after all.

Many Christians cannot explain the PRE trib rapture, because a 7 year stay in heaven is not found within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

None that scripture/spirit deniers would recognize anyway.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

The idea came from the "vision" of a sick 15 year old girl in 1830.
The "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites was adopted by John Darby and brought to America around the time of the Civil War.

Are you saying there's nothing in the scriptures about the "end" (fulness) of the time Jesus deals with the church and God goes back to dealing with Israel????

What does "Fulness" mean as used by scripture???

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What is this "Fulness of time" and why does it have to be over before the blinders can come off of Israel?????





Based on Romans chapter 11, the only way modern Jews can be saved is by being grafted back into the olive tree, containing the Israelites and Gentiles who have placed their faith in Christ.

Why don't you explain to us why in the trib both Satan and God say that anyone who confess Jesus, "Should be killed",

but Jesus doesn't say the same about those in the church,

"WHY" the difference???


You remind me of another fellow on another forum, he kept knowing more and more about less and less until he knew nothing about everything, it got so bad even unbelievers recognize his ignorance.

Not only will the spirit reveal those who are "Approved" to teach the scripture, it will also reveal those who are not "Approved" to teach the scriptures.

And make no mistake about it, "approval rating" will be "posted".
 
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Bro.T

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"Theres know Rapture?" There is FOR SURE a catching up written in 1 Thes. 4. It is HOW the saints get into the clouds you mentioned. so OF COURSE there is a rapture or catching up.

And you are right again, for a part of the catching up is the dead in Christ rising and they will be for sure a part of the resurrection of the JUST, which is the first or primary resurrection that will come a thousand years before the resurrection of the UNjust.

I will further add that this catching up and His COMING TO catch us up will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord and HIS wrath. Find the START of His wrath in revelation and you will be very close to the rapture of the church.

Looks like we kinda agreeing, but you have to understand that you can't have both. Theres only Resurrections, you can't use 1 Thes. 4 as a Rapture event. Once you understand the importance of the Resurrection and give up this Rapture thing, it would be easier to accumulate more knowledge and understanding about the first Resurrection. Using the word Rapture connects to a different doctrine, mind set of Understanding the word of God. I can go from Genesis to Revelation teaching about the first Resurrection, because the prophets taught us about it, not a Rapture. You have to learn to disconnect your self from the the way the world thinks and focus more on what God is saying in his word. I teach the uncut word of God. You can't be a friend of the world and a friend of God to. James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
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Douggg

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1 Thessalonians. "To wait for His Son from Heaven", "Lord Jesus Christ at his coming", "the coming of Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints", "the coming of the Lord", "shall descend from heaven", "the coming of the Lord."

He says "you know well it comes as a thief in the night", as Jesus used a parable of a thief in the night to describe his coming. Jesus spoke three times of his coming and all were to be in power and glory. He said his coming would be like the days of Noah or of Lot, where all were suddenly destroyed.
What I was asking about specifically was this phrase used in the way you said Paul used it - "I may well be overcome should that occur in my lifetime, but the point remains that Paul said there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power."

What specific verse, copy and paste please, where Paul has said "there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power

Here is what 1thessalonians4:13-18 says.... there is not coming in glory and power in the verses. Coming in glory and power is associated with his Second Coming..... but that description is not found in the rapture verses.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
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BABerean2

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You remind me of another fellow on another forum, he kept knowing more and more about less and less until he knew nothing about everything, it got so bad even unbelievers recognize his ignorance.[/QUOTE]

.

There is obviously something wrong with me for ignoring John Darby's doctrine...

Ignorance is definitely the problem.

When Paul says in
Galatians 3:16 that the promises to Abraham were made only to Christ, I cannot ignore it.

When Timothy says in 2nd Timothy 4:1 that Christ will judge those alive and dead at His appearing and His kingdom, I cannot ignore it.

When the author of Hebrews says in verse 8:6 that Christ is "now" the mediator of the New Covenant found in
Jeremiah 31:31-34, I cannot ignore it. This is the same covenant in Romans chapter 11. Therefore, I cannot ignore it.

When the Apostle Paul says in Galatians chapter 1 that there is only one Gospel, I cannot ignore it.

I either have to ignore what the Bible says or ignore what John Darby said.

You are correct, ignorance is my problem.
 
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keras

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Ignoring a false teaching, BaB, is discernment. Believing something unsupported by scripture is foolishness.

One of the many prophesies that make a pre-trib rapture impossible is Revelation 12:17, where Satan [thrown down to earth, Revelation 12:9] wages war against all those who keep God's Commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. In other words: all the rest of the Christian people.
The 'woman' those Christians who have kept faithful during their test, Daniel 11:32b, are flown to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14
 
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ivebeenshown

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What I was asking about specifically was this phrase used in the way you said Paul used it - "I may well be overcome should that occur in my lifetime, but the point remains that Paul said there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power."

What specific verse, copy and paste please, where Paul has said "there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power

Here is what 1thessalonians4:13-18 says.... there is not coming in glory and power in the verses. Coming in glory and power is associated with his Second Coming..... but that description is not found in the rapture verses.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Excuse me, you are correct that Paul does not say "power and glory" in that first letter, but the second letter instead. But he does say the Lord descends from Heaven and is coming in the clouds with the sound of a trumpet, and the only coming Jesus spoke of fits that description, plus it is noted that there is power and glory, which Paul does also state in his second letter.

Paul mentions the coming of Jesus once in every chapter in that first letter, which I do enjoy and find interesting.
 
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Douggg

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Excuse me, you are correct that Paul does not say "power and glory" in that first letter, but the second letter instead. But he does say the Lord descends from Heaven and is coming in the clouds with the sound of a trumpet, and the only coming Jesus spoke of fits that description, plus it is noted that there is power and glory, which Paul does also state in his second letter.

Paul mentions the coming of Jesus once in every chapter in that first letter, which I do enjoy and find interesting.
Well, the rapture/resurrection passage is in that first letter - without the power and glory. So that is an indication that the rapture/resurrection is not at the Second Coming.

There is the trump of God, as it is called, in the 1thessalonians4:13-18, coupled with the voice of the archangel - or that the voice of the archangel is the trumpet of God. Do we have the voice of the archangel in the passage in 2thessalonians that you are referring to (it would be appropriate if you copy and paste the exact verse, because you are speaking ambiguously otherwise because you did not even reference the verse) ?

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

If we look at Revelation 4,

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


John being called "up hither", a door in heaven first opens. (Jesus says he is the door, no-one comes to the father but by him).

Which in 1thessalonians4:13-18, them who sleep in Christ (their bodies in the graves) God brings with Jesus. It must be referring to their souls that Jesus brings with him.

So I think that is heaven opening. Jesus coming through that door (a dimensional portal) and Jesus descends from heaven with the souls of them who sleep (their bodies like seeds in the ground). They rise first, coming forth out of the dead state, alive again, souls receiving their eternal body - followed by the translation of the living into the clouds to be taken with Jesus to heaven back through that door.... the door to the unwise virgins, who did not watch, then is closed.

John before being called up, also hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet - the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, in 1thessalonians4:16 ?

Now in Revelation 4, that picture of what the rapture/resurrection will be like comes before John is shown the Apocalypse. John is there in heaven. Which would indicate - possibly - before the Antichrist becomes the King of Israel (the rider on the white horse having a crown (King of Israel). And surely before the great tribulation begins in Revelation 13, with the creation of the image of the beast, 42 months before Jesus returns.

Do we have any indication of anyone being caught up/translation of the living anywhere else in Revelation ? No, we do not. We do have the two witnesses their bodies returning to life and ascending up, but it doesn't say in the text that they are transfigured - although they could be. But we don't have living persons transfigured, translated.

We do have a verse in Revelation 16, as the armies gather at Armagddeon at the end of the 7 years....

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

....which post tribbers use to support their view.

I am thinking more along the lines of (1) either being parenthetic to the reader not to overlook that the rapture/resurrection could happen any time (2) or it could be encouragement to them who are going through the great tribulation (the rapture already have taken place before) and are the ones in Daniel 12:11-12 who hang on to their faith and don't worship the Abomination of Desolation, who will be blessed on the 1335th day (from the day it is first setup to be worshiped).
 
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ivebeenshown

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Well, the rapture/resurrection passage is in that first letter - without the power and glory. So that is an indication that the rapture/resurrection is not at the Second Coming.
On the contrary, an omission of restatement of the power and glory of his coming does not constitute a lack of power and glory.

There is the trump of God, as it is called, in the 1thessalonians4:13-18, coupled with the voice of the archangel - or that the voice of the archangel is the trumpet of God. Do we have the voice of the archangel in the passage in 2thessalonians that you are referring to (it would be appropriate if you copy and paste the exact verse, because you are speaking ambiguously otherwise because you did not even reference the verse) ?
I am slowly moving away from referencing chapters and verses because Jesus himself and the Apostles did not do so. They spoke only the Word. That is why I thanked you for pointing out my erroneous statement, that Paul said "power and glory" in his first letter.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
And elsewhere, Jesus says that he will come with the sound of a trumpet and send his angels to gather his elect, even immediately after the days of tribulation.

If we look at Revelation 4,

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
I must note that a voice likened to a trumpet is not a trumpet nor the trump of a trumpet.


John being called "up hither", a door in heaven first opens. (Jesus says he is the door, no-one comes to the father but by him).

Which in 1thessalonians4:13-18, them who sleep in Christ (their bodies in the graves) God brings with Jesus. It must be referring to their souls that Jesus brings with him.
And to this I do agree, for if the souls of the deceased of His people are in heaven, and their bones are to be risen and covered with sinew per the Scripture, then their souls must come with him to be reunited with their bodies.

So I think that is heaven opening. Jesus coming through that door (a dimensional portal) and Jesus descends from heaven with the souls of them who sleep (their bodies like seeds in the ground). They rise first, coming forth out of the dead state, alive again, souls receiving their eternal body - followed by the translation of the living into the clouds to be taken with Jesus to heaven back through that door.... the door to the unwise virgins, who did not watch, then is closed.
Paul states that Jesus will descend from heaven, and how will one descend from a thing without also coming out of it, or how can a plane descend from the clouds without also being no more in the clouds? Moreover, if Jesus spoke of his coming in power and glory and then in the same discourse also likened his coming to the virgins, some who were shut out, why assume that he spoke of another coming than his coming in power and glory, especially when Jesus spoke three times of his coming outside of parables, all of which mention the power and glory?

John before being called up, also hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet - the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, in 1thessalonians4:16 ?

Now in Revelation 4, that picture of what the rapture/resurrection will be like comes before John is shown the Apocalypse. John is there in heaven. Which would indicate - possibly - before the Antichrist becomes the King of Israel (the rider on the white horse having a crown (King of Israel). And surely before the great tribulation begins in Revelation 13, with the creation of the image of the beast, 42 months before Jesus returns.
Why equate a vision of twenty-four elders in heaven with the rapture? Are there not elders in heaven as we speak, or were there not elders in heaven when John wrote his writing?

Do we have any indication of anyone being caught up/translation of the living anywhere else in Revelation ? No, we do not. We do have the two witnesses their bodies returning to life and ascending up, but it doesn't say in the text that they are transfigured - although they could be. But we don't have living persons transfigured, translated.

We do have a verse in Revelation 16, as the armies gather at Armagddeon at the end of the 7 years....

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

....which post tribbers use to support their view.
Here I feel the need to note that Jesus himself states that "immediately after those days of tribulation" he will come in the clouds with power and glory to gather his elect. Those of pre-tribulation are burdened with proving that Jesus will come and gather anyone unto him before that.

I am thinking more along the lines of (1) either being parenthetic to the reader not to overlook that the rapture/resurrection could happen any time (2) or it could be encouragement to them who are going through the great tribulation (the rapture already have taken place before) and are the ones in Daniel 12:11-12 who hang on to their faith and don't worship the Abomination of Desolation, who will be blessed on the 1335th day (from the day it is first setup to be worshiped).
Jesus instructed elsewhere to those listening or reading that they should watch and remain sober, but in the context of his coming in power and glory.
 
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On the contrary, an omission of restatement of the power and glory of his coming does not constitute a lack of power and glory.
The ommission is specific to the rapture verses in 1thessalonians13-16. I don't think it was an unitentional ommission.

I am slowly moving away from referencing chapters and verses because Jesus himself and the Apostles did not do so. They spoke only the Word. That is why I thanked you for pointing out my erroneous statement, that Paul said "power and glory" in his first letter.

That's lame. You want to be elusive and not held to accountability of what you state... that's the real reason.

The convention of numbering chapters and verse is in the printed bible, that everyone here uses. You are not reading from a bible that does not have chapter and verses. Jesus nor the Apostles instructed anyone - don't reference by chapter and verse from the bible.

Paul states that Jesus will descend from heaven, and how will one descend from a thing without also coming out of it, or how can a plane descend from the clouds without also being no more in the clouds? Moreover, if Jesus spoke of his coming in power and glory and then in the same discourse also likened his coming to the virgins, some who were shut out, why assume that he spoke of another coming than his coming in power and glory, especially when Jesus spoke three times of his coming outside of parables, all of which mention the power and glory?

There are three heavens - the earth's atmosphere, the cosmos, and the heaven where God's throne is, which Paul calls the third heaven. When the rapture/resurrection takes place - Jesus descends from the third heaven, into the cosmos, the second heaven.

By voice, he resurrects the dead (bodies); and by voice he says "come up hither" (if we apply what John wrote in Revelation 4) to the living. In the clouds of the first heaven, both the resurrected dead and the living are together at that point. They proceed to meet the Lord in the air - which is in the cosmos, the second heaven. From there to the third heaven. The door is then closed. All by the power of Jesus and his voice.

Why equate a vision of twenty-four elders in heaven with the rapture? Are there not elders in heaven as we speak, or were there not elders in heaven when John wrote his writing?
I wrote that John represented the raptured/resurrected church.

I didn't equate the twenty-four elders in heaven with the rapture/resurrecton. But it would not be out of line. Yes, they are there now as departed souls, I agree with you on that, but when John sees them they have crowns on their heads. Which there are several passages in the new testament regarding crowns received by the saints for what they did here on earth.

Here I feel the need to note that Jesus himself states that "immediately after those days of tribulation" he will come in the clouds with power and glory to gather his elect. Those of pre-tribulation are burdened with proving that Jesus will come and gather anyone unto him before that.

Actually the burden is reverse. It is up to them who insist that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 (you put an unfair burden on them who you engage in discussion to identify exactly what passage you are referring to) to show that is the rapture, because (1) no resurrection (2) no translation of the living - in Matthew 24:31.

Jesus instructed elsewhere to those listening or reading that they should watch and remain sober, but in the context of his coming in power and glory.

What do you mean "elsewhere" ? Is that the way Jesus and the Apostles spoke? Be specific, don't hide behind a veil of ambiguity, copy and paste the verse(s) or at least give the chapter(s) and verse(s). Is there a difficulty for you in that the Catholic bible is that much different than the KJV?
 
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Postvieww said in post 4964:

The passage implies it is not possible to deceive them.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Note that in this verse, the original Greek doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it simply says "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), as part of Satan's intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says that it is impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets, who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

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The fact that a saved person can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a saved person, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10, Proverbs 17:4a) applies even to a saved person.

That is, one way that a saved person could be deceived into committing apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

So saved people need to be living righteously now, they need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

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But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike that I told you about, so make sure that you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day only to the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

The main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Postvieww said in post 4964:

Rev 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who are these saints? Are they believers in Christ? If they are, how did they get born again if the church and Holy Spirit were removed from the earth?

Good point.

For the mistaken, pre-tribulation view thinks that the following verse refers to the Holy Spirit or the church being taken away from the earth:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

But the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.
 
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Short Timer said in post 4968:

Most here will admit to a rapture to meet Jesus in the air, then claim those rapture turn around and return back to the ground with Jesus and say the rapture is at the second coming.

Problem is, they don't have any scripture to support this "Popcorn rapture" . . .

Note that the rapture is not a popping up and down, but a catching up and a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

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Short Timer said in post 4972:

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (voice) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: .

Regarding Revelation 1:10b, it simply means that John the apostle heard a literal voice behind him which sounded only "like" a trumpet. And the next verse shows that voice was Jesus', telling John to write down what he would see, and send it to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey).

The literal, 2nd-coming trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) won't be blown until after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

That is, the trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Short Timer said in post 4972:

My bible say this is "Voice of God" (Jesus) not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

Note that nothing requires that the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be blown by God himself instead of by an angel under God's command, just as nothing requires that the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 will be blown by an angel instead of by God himself. That is, the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 can be the same trumpet as in Matthew 24:31. For both 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 refer to the trumpet which will sound at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).

Also, note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 doesn't say that Jesus will come "by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31.

Similarly, note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Short Timer said in post 4972:

I doubt that you know what an archangel is or who is the number one archangel in Heaven.

Note that Jesus isn't any angel, but God the Son (Hebrews 1:4 to 2:16). So the voice of an archangel, literally a "chief angel", heard at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16) won't be the voice of Jesus, but of one of the archangels who will accompany Jesus at his return with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31). It could be the voice of Michael, who is just one of the chief angels (Daniel 10:13). (1 Thessalonians 4:16's original Greek doesn't refer to the voice of "the" archangel, but an archangel.)

1 Thessalonians 4:16's "with" preceding "a voice of an archangel" can mean that a voice of an archangel will be heard in addition to 1 Thessalonians 4:16's shout, just as the "with" preceding the shout means that the shout will occur in addition to the descent of Jesus. So the verse can be listing 3 different things which will be heard at Jesus' descent: a shout (which could be from Jesus), a voice of an archangel, and a trumpet of God.

Short Timer said in post 4972:

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Short Timer said in post 4972:

Why don't you explain to us why in the trib both Satan and God say that anyone who confess Jesus, "Should be killed",

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

In Revelation 13:15, note that the original Greek verb (apokteino: G0615) translated as "should be killed" is in the aorist tense and the subjunctive mood. And neither the tense nor the mood contains the moral sense of the English phrase "should be", such as in: "You should be taking care of your elderly mother". Instead, the subjunctive mood is simply "the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances" (blueletterbible.org). An example would be the English phrase: "If any of the soldiers should be killed in the battle, we have evacuation helicopters at the stand-by". In the case of Revelation 13:15, the circumstance required in order for people to be killed will be their not worshipping the image of the beast.

So Revelation 13:15 can simply be read as follows: "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed".

Similarly, in Revelation 6:11, the English phrase "should be killed" is a translation of two original Greek words: mello (G3195) and apokteino (G0615). "Mello" can be translated simply as "about", as in referring to something which is "about" to happen (cf. Acts 3:3). And "apokteino" is in a tense and mood that is translated literally as "to be killed". So in Revelation 6:11, the original Greek phrase translated as "should be killed" simply means about to be killed.

Also, in Revelation 6:11, note that the original Greek verb (pleroo: G4137) translated as "should be fulfilled" is in the aorist tense and the subjunctive mood, which, as we saw above with regard to Revelation 13:15, carries no moral sense, but only a conditional one. In this case, the condition of the fulfillment is the passage of a certain amount of time, the "little season" of Revelation 6:11.
 
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BABerean2 said in post 4971:

Get out your Bible and find the "last" trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.
 
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