Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

There is no rapture, no physical resurrection . Only spiritual resurrection and regeneration.

You deny the plain word of God. So why would you write that?

If you just wish to die and your spirit go out into outer space, perhaps God would grant your wish. For the rest of us who believe, we believe we will be caught up, exactly as the scriptures tell us. And we WILL be. But since you don't believe it, you WON'T be. Perhaps you better get stocked up on food....unless you just plan on taking the mark.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes. But we will only have spiritual Resurrection.

NONSENSE. Readers RUN! Even Job way back then knew better that this. He KNEW He would stand before God in HIS BODY.

 

[iamlamad]

It can't be an opinion,it MUST be, thus saith the Lord,and that is scripture,which therefore,can't be a pre trib rapture,heck a rapture at all,as a matter of fact...

Christ will say,as He always,have you not read!!!!

See ,you say you don't care when it happens,that's a problem,we don't know the day or the hour,however,we must know the season,and the most important of all,we must and should know that satan comes before Christ.If you don't you will be deceived,period!!!!

More nonsense. Readers, run for your lives. And while running be looking up for He is coming very soon.

 

[n2thelight]

More nonsense. Readers, run for your lives. And while running be looking up for He is coming very soon.

Which part do you consider nonsense?You talk the talk,but like Christ said,have you not read....

I only do scripture,so do tell,why Im I wrong?

 

[ivebeenshown]

Not when God said the saints will be OVERCOME. Perhaps you should read again Rev. 13 and see why you will be overcome. Will you bow to an idol? Will you accept the mark? I don't think so. When God says you will be overcome, in my mind it is foolish to think you will escape. That is the opposite of what He has declared for you. You will be one of the first people the Beast will go after. Why? Your name is all over this forum! You will be easy to find. And you probably go to church.

I may well be overcome should that occur in my lifetime, but the point remains that Paul said there will be those of us who remain until the Lord's coming in glory and power.

 

[keras]

Sorry, but it is simply false doctrine that the DAY does not start until Rev. 19.

Actually the terrible Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb occurs at the Sixth seal.
Shifting this event 13 chapters, is impossible and violates scripture.
Making it out to be longer that a day is also wrong: Isaiah 10:17, Psalms 50:1, Revelation 18:8
The great Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, will be the disaster that will reset our civilization and lead up to the Return of Jesus.

 

[ivebeenshown]

All those with Jesus KNEW about His coming to set up His earthly Kingdom. Every time Jesus mentioned His coming it was THAT coming. But at that time the Gentile church of today was a MYSTERY hidden in Father God, so of course Jesus would not speak of it or even know of it. God the Father waited perhaps 6 to 8 years before finally giving up on Israel accepting Him as their Messiah, and then turned to the Gentiles.

But Jesus spoke of the Gentiles when he said "go out and invite as many as you can find" in his parable of the wedding, Matthew 22:1-14.

Why then would anyone look for the Gentile church related verses in the Gospels? It is simply NOT THERE. In case you missed it, the Jewish church of which the disciples were a part disappeared. Thank GOD He sent Paul to the Gentiles. We owe are salvation to Paul.

Paul says that in Christ, we are baptized into one body, Jew or Gentile, still one body. Why then say there is a 'Gentile church' and a 'Jewish church', whereas Paul says we are 'one body' Jew and Gentile alike?

If one wishes to learn about the real rapture, Paul's rapture, the only place to find it is in Paul's letters. I find in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's catching up will come before God's wrath, and I find God's wrath starting with the 6th seal earthquake, EXACTLY as written. So of course I see Paul's rapture as pretrib because that is the way it is written.

Your argument then rests on the notion that the great tribulation is part of God's wrath. In 1 Thessalonians 3 Paul says "to the end may he strengthen your hearts... before God at the coming of Lord Jesus." What does Paul mean by "the end" if not "the end of the age"?

But Luke also says that as in the days of Noah when the flood came and all were destroyed, or in the days of Lot when the fire came and all were destroyed, so shall the day of the Lord be when the son of man is revealed.

Of course because Paul's record of Jesus' coming was related ONLY to the Gentile church of today. You would do well if you pictured the entire time of the Gentile church, from when Paul saw sent out up to the rapture as a long parentheses inserted into the Jewish time-line. You would do well because it is the truth. You simply cannot find Paul's rapture in the gospel for it is not there. What? Is God not allowed to write of a "gathering" but what some will jump on it and claim it is Paul's gathering? Is God not allowed to have a DIFFERENT gathering? you really need to camp out on 1 thes. 4 & 5 until you understand Paul's timing.

You claim that "Paul's gathering" is somehow different than the gathering Jesus spoke of, or that "Paul's coming" is different than the only coming Jesus spoke of, as if Jesus did not know about his own coming, or even that Paul himself speaks of more than one "coming" within the same letter, somehow. Because in 1 Thessalonians, the Lord 'descends from heaven', which surely cannot mean he has stayed in heaven. But if he had not stayed in heaven then he has come out of it. And in 2 Thessalonians, Paul writes of the time at which Jesus is "revealed" from heaven. Peter also writes, saying that we receive the end of our faith at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

I KNOW what the Old Testament verses tells us about the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath (same DAY). It is God systematically destroying the earth, and the sinners on the earth. I think a 5th grader could read the trumpet judgments and understand they are meant to destroy the earth. So of course I see the entire 70th week as His wrath because they WILL BE His wrath. Can you imagine, for example, God killing 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be in wrath? God destroying 1/3 of the seas and it NOT be in wrath? God making the cattle and sheep perplexed because the fire had burned up the grass of the pastures...and it NOT be wrath? Especially when He foretold doing these very things and calling it the Day of the Lord?

I don't imagine these things, I simply do not see the contrary. I do not, as you have stated elsewhere, confuse the order of the seals amongst themselves, or the trumpets amongst themselves, or the vials amongst themselves, but I do not necessarily see that the three things must be in that order, or that some of them could not overlap.

WHY did those at the 6th seal declare that the Day of His wrath had come? Do you know? Do you know the scriptures that were fulfilled at the 6th seal? Study Isaiah 2 and notice that John copied him almost word for word. Then all knew Joel's prophecy and Isaiah's prophecy and when they saw this worldwide earthquake and they saw the moon turn to blood and he sun turned black, they just read the signs and KNEW the Day had started. Then Paul tells us that when people see the man of sin revealed they will KNOW the day had previously started and they are IN IT.

Sorry, but it is simply false doctrine that the DAY does not start until Rev. 19.

You ask me why that is stated in chapter 6, and I do not know why, other than that is a vision of when the Lord's wrath is indeed come. But that can only come one time, so when I see that chapter 11 is also when the Lord's wrath is come, I can only assume that not all of the visions in the book are sequential, or that none of them are parallel.

When we read 1 Thes. 5 we see that it IS or WILL BE an escape from the sudden destruction of the earthquake. THEY get the sudden destruction, while WE get raptured and escape the sudden destruction.
Next, Luke 21:36 confirms it.

Of course we agree that we are not appointed to the Lord's wrath and that our gathering unto Him before His wrath is so that we do not receive his Wrath. But we have not agreed that the sudden destruction is an earthquake induced by the rapture. Because God also brought sudden destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and none survived. And Jesus said that as in those days, so shall His day be.

 

[ivebeenshown]

All those with Jesus KNEW about His coming to set up His earthly Kingdom. Every time Jesus mentioned His coming it was THAT coming. But at that time the Gentile church of today was a MYSTERY hidden in Father God, so of course Jesus would not speak of it or even know of it. God the Father waited perhaps 6 to 8 years before finally giving up on Israel accepting Him as their Messiah, and then turned to the Gentiles. Why then would anyone look for the Gentile church related verses in the Gospels? It is simply NOT THERE. In case you missed it, the Jewish church of which the disciples were a part disappeared. Thank GOD He sent Paul to the Gentiles. We owe are salvation to Paul.

If one wishes to learn about the real rapture, Paul's rapture, the only place to find it is in Paul's letters. I find in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's catching up will come before God's wrath, and I find God's wrath starting with the 6th seal earthquake, EXACTLY as written. So of course I see Paul's rapture as pretrib because that is the way it is written.

Why then would "his coming" all of sudden refer to a different coming than the one Jesus spoke of?

Of course because Paul's record of Jesus' coming was related ONLY to the Gentile church of today. You would do well if you pictured the entire time of the Gentile church, from when Paul saw sent out up to the rapture as a long parentheses inserted into the Jewish time-line. You would do well because it is the truth. You simply cannot find Paul's rapture in the gospel for it is not there. What? Is God not allowed to write of a "gathering" but what some will jump on it and claim it is Paul's gathering? Is God not allowed to have a DIFFERENT gathering? you really need to camp out on 1 thes. 4 & 5 until you understand Paul's timing.

Why do you equate the tribulation with God's wrath?

I KNOW what the Old Testament verses tells us about the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath (same DAY). It is God systematically destroying the earth, and the sinners on the earth. I think a 5th grader could read the trumpet judgments and understand they are meant to destroy the earth. So of course I see the entire 70th week as His wrath because they WILL BE His wrath. Can you imagine, for example, God killing 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be in wrath? God destroying 1/3 of the seas and it NOT be in wrath? God making the cattle and sheep perplexed because the fire had burned up the grass of the pastures...and it NOT be wrath? Especially when He foretold doing these very things and calling it the Day of the Lord?

WHY did those at the 6th seal declare that the Day of His wrath had come? Do you know? Do you know the scriptures that were fulfilled at the 6th seal? Study Isaiah 2 and notice that John copied him almost word for word. Then all knew Joel's prophecy and Isaiah's prophecy and when they saw this worldwide earthquake and they saw the moon turn to blood and he sun turned black, they just read the signs and KNEW the Day had started. Then Paul tells us that when people see the man of sin revealed they will KNOW the day had previously started and they are IN IT.

Sorry, but it is simply false doctrine that the DAY does not start until Rev. 19.

Why does "escape" necessarily mean rapture

When we read 1 Thes. 5 we see that it IS or WILL BE an escape from the sudden destruction of the earthquake. THEY get the sudden destruction, while WE get raptured and escape the sudden destruction.
Next, Luke 21:36 confirms it.

I wanted to reply again only to point out that the sun darkening, and the moon darkening, and the stars falling at the sixth seal is exactly what Jesus says happens after the great tribulation. Will the stars fall more than one time?

 

[keras]

I wanted to reply again only to point out that the sun darkening, and the moon darkening, and the stars falling at the sixth seal is exactly what Jesus says happens after the great tribulation. Will the stars fall more than one time?

Yes, we have many meteor showers. There will be one at the Sixth Seal and another at the Return.
Re the sun: God darkened it in Egypt, Genesis 10:21-23 and for 2 more times, He will do it again. Revelation 6:12 and Matthew 24:29. Note the difference at the Sixth Seal; the moon will shine blood red. Joel 2:30-31

 

[n2thelight]

You deny the plain word of God. So why would you write that?

If you just wish to die and your spirit go out into outer space, perhaps God would grant your wish. For the rest of us who believe, we believe we will be caught up, exactly as the scriptures tell us. And we WILL be. But since you don't believe it, you WON'T be. Perhaps you better get stocked up on food....unless you just plan on taking the mark.

Your spirit was'nt in outer space before you came here and it won't after you die,or change.whichever comes first....

The flesh won't rise,it goes back to dust where it came from

 

[n2thelight]

Do people understand how big a star is?Well our sun is one,now imagine that hitting the earth,mind you most other stars are bigger....

The term stars fall from heaven signifies the fallen angels getting kicked out of Heaven along with satan

Luke 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[Douggg]

Do people understand how big a star is?Well our sun is one,now imagine that hitting the earth,mind you most other stars are bigger....

The term stars fall from heaven signifies the fallen angels getting kicked out of Heaven along with satan

Luke 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Lightning is not a star.
I think Revelation 12 is the passage that you are thinking of...

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

However, in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, it is talking about the removal of the cosmos, the second heaven.

 

[Bible2+]

Doug said in post 4891:

And the bride of Christ in Revelation 19:7-9 is the raptured and resurrected church . . .

Amen.

But in Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

For note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Doug said in post 4891:

John's being translated to heaven (as though he was raptured/resurrected) - and is in heaven as he sees and is told of what happens here on earth - is evidence of the church is in heaven during the great tribulation.... and no mention of the church going through the great tribulation in Revelation once Jesus breaks the seals on the book.

Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason why the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Doug said in post 4891:

There will be them who receive Jesus during the great tribulation, after the church is gone. Those are the tribulation saints.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. And the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

-

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

*******

Doug said in post 4896:

I hold the anytime rapture view. The rapture could happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires an anytime rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Doug said in post 4896:

The rapture is God's promise to them who are watching, anticipating, to escape the time of trouble that will come up on the whole world.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Note that this doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww said in post 4894:

They are before the throne of God as plainly stated, but they are not a raptured anybody.

That's right, in that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 4897:

but not a one single of you can use the scriptures to explain why a number of church members so small a child could write the number would meet Jesus in the air at the second coming after 99.999999% of all other church members have been killed by the AC.

Isaiah 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

This referred to how many soldiers of ancient Assyria were left alive after 2 Kings 19:35. For the context of Isaiah 10:19 is God's judgment against Sennacherib, a king of ancient Assyria, for threatening Jerusalem in the time of Hezekiah (Isaiah 10:5-19; 2 Kings 19:20-37). Similarly, Isaiah 10:20 refers to a remnant of Israelites living in Jerusalem who survived Sennacherib's invasion of Judah (2 Kings 19:30-37).

Short Timer said in post 4897:

Not a single one of you can explain why there is a trib . . .

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die at the hands of Satan during a 1st century AD persecution:

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

 

[Bible2+]

n2thelight said in post 4903:

The reason for the trib is to try them that dwell on the earth, Rev 3:10

The 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

 

[Bible2+]

Lamad said in post 4920:

It will matter a LOT of the rapture is pretrib and many are left behind because they did not believe in it so were not watching and expecting.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

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Lamad said in post 4923:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be very difficult to be watching for His coming and expecting it, when one believes he or she will see the Beast first?

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

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Lamad said in post 4928:

God will not and has not set any appointments for us with His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Note that this refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11), for example, won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

 

[Bible2+]

ivebeenshown said in post 4952:

I wanted to reply again only to point out that the sun darkening, and the moon darkening, and the stars falling at the sixth seal is exactly what Jesus says happens after the great tribulation.

Actually, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are 2 different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

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Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

 

[Postvieww]

I wanted to reply again only to point out that the sun darkening, and the moon darkening, and the stars falling at the sixth seal is exactly what Jesus says happens after the great tribulation. Will the stars fall more than one time?

Ivebeenshown said in post #4952

I wanted to reply again only to point out that the sun darkening, and the moon darkening, and the stars falling at the sixth seal is exactly what Jesus says happens after the great tribulation. Will the stars fall more than one time?

Jesus said "strive to enter in at the strait gate".

Ivebeenshown said in post #4951

You ask me why that is stated in chapter 6, and I do not know why, other than that is a vision of when the Lord's wrath is indeed come. But that can only come one time, so when I see that chapter 11 is also when the Lord's wrath is come, I can only assume that not all of the visions in the book are sequential, or that none of them are parallel.

I am one of the very few on this forum that takes the view Revelation is not completely chronological. You make some good points but most here will not acknowledge them. I believe the sixth seal is at the end as well as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. There are too many overlapping events to ignore. You mentioned the stars falling more than once, we also have the islands and mountains being moved mentioned in Rev 6:14 and Rev 16:20 at the 7th vial. I believe they are the same event. I also believe Matt 24:29-31 is the same event as Rev 6:12-17. The coming of the Lord is referred to or implied in several chapters of Revelation as well. There is much evidence to suggest this book is not chronological, but you will not get much support on this forum. God Bless

 

[Postvieww]

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Who are the elect of this passage? Are they believers in Christ or unbelieving Jews?

The passage implies it is not possible to deceive them. What is the source of their strength to resist?

Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

When antichrist comes his main weapon is deception.

Rev 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who are these saints? Are they believers in Christ? If they are, how did they get born again if the church and Holy Spirit were removed from the earth?

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Who are these still on the earth, that refuse to worship antichrist who’s names are written in the lambs book of life? What is the source of their strength if the church and Holy Spirit have been removed previously?