Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[ivebeenshown]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be very difficult to be watching for His coming and expecting it, when one believes he or she will see the Beast first?

"When you see these things come to pass, look up, because your redemption is near."

"And take heed lest... That day come upon you unawares."

 

[ivebeenshown]

It sounds so spiritual, but God has said the saints would be overcome. That is the opposite of "kept us safe."

Would "those of us which remain until the Lord's coming", as Paul stated, not have been kept safe?

 

[iamlamad]

I wouldn't give up hope, or judge, just yet brother. The Spirit can and will find those whom God has chosen to be His children- we do not know the state of another person's relationship with God, especially on the small level of interaction we have here.

Though we can make rather good educated guesses.

Many believers, in fact the majority here in the US know nothing about "the Holy Spirit UPON" as in the anointing. How can someone get the Holy Spirit to teach them, when they have rejected the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit that gives us the Holy Spirit UPON us?

 

[iamlamad]

Would "those of us which remain until the Lord's coming", as Paul stated, not have been kept safe?

That all depends on which coming. Paul wrote it so of course this would be pointed to the coming as written in 1 Thes. 4. This coming must come before God's wrath, by Paul's own words. Although many wish to set their OWN appointment, God will not and has not set any appointments for us with His wrath. This fits perfectly with Luke 21:36 how we ESCAPE what is coming.

 

[iamlamad]

"When you see these things come to pass, look up, because your redemption is near."

"And take heed lest... That day come upon you unawares."

Then I hope you all are looking up, for "these things" have begun to come to pass.

 

[iamlamad]

This is true -- and the Jews did not have to be raptured away to escape those things.

It was not time for the rapture then, and few of them were born again anyway. Neither was it time for the rapture in ancient Rome when believers were fed to the lions and used as torches.

 

[ivebeenshown]

That all depends on which coming. Paul wrote it so of course this would be pointed to the coming as written in 1 Thes. 4. This coming must come before God's wrath, by Paul's own words. Although many wish to set their OWN appointment, God will not and has not set any appointments for us with His wrath. This fits perfectly with Luke 21:36 how we ESCAPE what is coming.

What about 1 Thessalonians has to do with a pre-tribulation rapture? Jesus spoke of his coming three times in the Gospels, and each of those three times is recorded in parallel in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Why then would "his coming" all of sudden refer to a different coming than the one Jesus spoke of?

Why do you equate the tribulation with God's wrath? If Paul says we are not appointed to God's wrath, yet some people who endure the great tribulation will in fact be saved by Jesus' coming, does that not contradict the notion that the tribulation is God's wrath?

Why does "escape" necessarily mean rapture, and not "escape" in the same way some Jews escaped the third reich while remaining on Earth?

 

[Short Timer]

I do not agree with you that people who do not hear Him don't want to.

Ac 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

There are many people looking for answers, searching vainly in the hope of finding salvation. It is our mission, our purpose on this Earth, to bring the light of Christ to them.

I believe that was Jesus's mission as well, how did he fare with Israel????

You think Jews are the only ones in the world who reject the "Voice of Jesus"???

Or do you think the apostles were always in communication with the Spirit, never failing or wavering in their faith, never once stumbling or faltering to trust in the Lord, even though they knew Him as no others have?

When you live with someone you get to know things about them that people who don't live with them, "don't Know".

And when someone starts talking about them you have a good idea of how well they actually know the person.

And this god most describe here is not the one I know or the one in the scriptures.

Do you think you have never stumbled? Because if you do...

Well, you have deceived yourself, my friend.

Whenever I stumble the spirit lets me know, Chastisement is God's way of "correcting" people, but since God only chasten "his own" it's also a confirmation that I am saved, and increases my Faith instead of destroying it.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Then I hope you all are looking up, for "these things" have begun to come to pass.

Of course, of course. And whether he comes today or tomorrow, or before or after the rise of the man of sin (although Paul says the man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus' coming), may we be kept in God's grace by the Holy Spirit through all things.

 

[Short Timer]

Tell us about the "trial" that you have been "submitted" and from which you have came out "victorious" ?
The last time I have asked you that question you have said that you believe that Jesus have already paid the price for you.... So you are worthy to escape....Hmm !..

Why are you asking questions that any person who has "Been there", would already know the answer????

There's a "Southern Gospel song" titled,
"I have a Birth I can't remember, and one I can't forget".

Can you remember the time/place as if it was "yesterday", when you were "Born again",

Even if it was 50-60-70- years ago???

If so, why are you asking about a "Trial" in which I came out "Victorious"???

Yes Jesus paid for my sins, and I still have the ears to hear him, which is why I am Accounted worthy to escape the "Trial" of those who have rejected him or backslid at the time of the rapture.

Rejects of/backsliders on God are the only ones who enter the trib, God don't "Chastise" people unless they deserve chastisement, but you don't understand Chastisement or the purpose of the trib so you don't understand why some people escape the trib.

And you reject every part of scripture that explain the trib or the rapture.

You're making comments that knowledgeable people would not make, "if they knew".

 

[Short Timer]

Alright, so you are indeed saying that by arguing against you we are arguing against the Holy Spirit?

Do you consider yourself so Holy/Righteous that it's not possible for God to reveal something to someone else and not "You"???

God picks and chose whoever he want and send them to tell everyone else, and if they have the ears to hear, the spirit will confirm what they said.

It doesn't work any different today than it did for Jesus, but just like Israel who stoned/killed the ones God chose to send, people today still condemn the ones God choose and sends,

And it for the same reason, Pride of the flesh/carnal minds that don't believe they need any help from God or the spirit.

Israel is as much a "light to the world" of what not to do, as they were of the things to do,

but you won't find very many "Christians" willing to admit they have the same problem with their "Body of sin" that Israel had.

Really, if you had ears to hear, would I have to prove anything to you, or would the spirit either confirm or deny whatever I've said????

 

[Short Timer]

Why does "escape" necessarily mean rapture, and not "escape" in the same way some Jews escaped the third reich while remaining on Earth?

Ever wonder why the "flesh", the old "Body of sin" must be killed/crucified????

It's because of the "Flesh" that sin enter the world, that apple hanging on the tree was "pleasant to the eye" of Eve, and what "Flesh" doesn't want to become "AS GODS", knowing "Good" and "EVIL"???

The trib is God's wrath against "ALL FLESH", just as he said in Noah's day:

Ge 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me;

And that is why "No flesh" would survive the trib either except God needing a few to repopulate the earth during the MK,

Pretty much as Noah and his family was saved to repopulate the earth, those saints returning with Jesus don't marry, they "reign and Judge".

"IN CHRIST" is an "Ark" as well, the "Body of Christ" over which the devil will never be given "power to prevail over".

 

[ivebeenshown]

Do you consider yourself so Holy/Righteous that it's not possible for God to reveal something to someone else and not "You"???

No.

God picks and chose whoever he want and send them to tell everyone else, and if they have the ears to hear, the spirit will confirm what they said.

It doesn't work any different today than it did for Jesus, but just like Israel who stoned/killed the ones God chose to send, people today still condemn the ones God choose and sends,

And it for the same reason, Pride of the flesh/carnal minds that don't believe they need any help from God or the spirit.

Of course we all need help from God and the Holy Spirit. But why should we believe your interpretation is of the Holy Spirit? Or mine? Or anyone else's?

Israel is as much a "light to the world" of what not to do, as they were of the things to do,

but you won't find very many "Christians" willing to admit they have the same problem with their "Body of sin" that Israel had.

Really, if you had ears to hear, would I have to prove anything to you, or would the spirit either confirm or deny whatever I've said????

Paul advised to Timothy to study to show himself approved. Why would Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, advise one to show themselves approved if there was no need for such a thing?

 

[timur123456789]

There is no rapture, no physical resurrection . Only spiritual resurrection and regeneration.

 

[Douggg]

There is no rapture, no physical resurrection . Only spiritual resurrection and regeneration.

Was Jesus's body physically resurrected, come back to life?

 

[timur123456789]

Yes. But we will only have spiritual Resurrection.

 

[n2thelight]

This... this is exactly what I was talking about. I have studied this issue thoroughly, and both sides have evidence that points to their opinion being the right one. No one has a knockout argument that smashes the other to pieces and conclusively proves it to be one way or the other.

And that is why I do not care when it will happen. I know only that it WILL happen, and I believe that those who attempt to try and predict when are doomed to fail- and are likely being led down a path of bickering, back biting, and divisive arguing that has only ever served to split the Church, rather than unify it.

Does that mean I believe that we should include any and all beliefs into the Church? Of course not. But it does mean that I believe that trying to make dichotomies such as Pre-Trib or Post-Trib is a meaningless exercise that has only distracted us from our true goal, our true purpose here on Earth.

We are to spread the Good News of Salvation, not the off color news that this one guy is preaching something I disagree with so here is ten thousand words on why he's a heretic and you shouldn't believe what he's saying, because you'll go to Hell if you do!

Honestly.

It can't be an opinion,it MUST be, thus saith the Lord,and that is scripture,which therefore,can't be a pre trib rapture,heck a rapture at all,as a matter of fact...

Christ will say,as He always,have you not read!!!!

See ,you say you don't care when it happens,that's a problem,we don't know the day or the hour,however,we must know the season,and the most important of all,we must and should know that satan comes before Christ.If you don't you will be deceived,period!!!!

 

[Short Timer]

Of course we all need help from God and the Holy Spirit. But why should we believe your interpretation is of the Holy Spirit? Or mine? Or anyone else's?

Why should anyone believe Jesus, or me or anyone else's???

Don't you believe if someone is speaking as God told them to speak, the spirit will confirm it???

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

The spirit works the same for anyone speaking as God told them as it did for Jesus.

Paul advised to Timothy to study to show himself approved. Why would Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, advise one to show themselves approved if there was no need for such a thing?

With all the opinions and options people have, deciding what is truth is left up to the carnal mind, which can't comprehend "Spiritual things".

If you only have "one option", and depend on that one options, deciding what is truth is not left up to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

People look everywhere "in the world" for understanding of scripture, when the only place it can be found is "out of this world'.

How do people show themselves "Approved" to people who can't/won't hear a "Second witness", The Spirit????

 

[iamlamad]

What about 1 Thessalonians has to do with a pre-tribulation rapture? Jesus spoke of his coming three times in the Gospels, and each of those three times is recorded in parallel in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Why then would "his coming" all of sudden refer to a different coming than the one Jesus spoke of?

Why do you equate the tribulation with God's wrath? If Paul says we are not appointed to God's wrath, yet some people who endure the great tribulation will in fact be saved by Jesus' coming, does that not contradict the notion that the tribulation is God's wrath?

Why does "escape" necessarily mean rapture, and not "escape" in the same way some Jews escaped the third reich while remaining on Earth?

All those with Jesus KNEW about His coming to set up His earthly Kingdom. Every time Jesus mentioned His coming it was THAT coming. But at that time the Gentile church of today was a MYSTERY hidden in Father God, so of course Jesus would not speak of it or even know of it. God the Father waited perhaps 6 to 8 years before finally giving up on Israel accepting Him as their Messiah, and then turned to the Gentiles. Why then would anyone look for the Gentile church related verses in the Gospels? It is simply NOT THERE. In case you missed it, the Jewish church of which the disciples were a part disappeared. Thank GOD He sent Paul to the Gentiles. We owe are salvation to Paul.

If one wishes to learn about the real rapture, Paul's rapture, the only place to find it is in Paul's letters. I find in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's catching up will come before God's wrath, and I find God's wrath starting with the 6th seal earthquake, EXACTLY as written. So of course I see Paul's rapture as pretrib because that is the way it is written.

Why then would "his coming" all of sudden refer to a different coming than the one Jesus spoke of?

Of course because Paul's record of Jesus' coming was related ONLY to the Gentile church of today. You would do well if you pictured the entire time of the Gentile church, from when Paul saw sent out up to the rapture as a long parentheses inserted into the Jewish time-line. You would do well because it is the truth. You simply cannot find Paul's rapture in the gospel for it is not there. What? Is God not allowed to write of a "gathering" but what some will jump on it and claim it is Paul's gathering? Is God not allowed to have a DIFFERENT gathering? you really need to camp out on 1 thes. 4 & 5 until you understand Paul's timing.

Why do you equate the tribulation with God's wrath?

I KNOW what the Old Testament verses tells us about the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath (same DAY). It is God systematically destroying the earth, and the sinners on the earth. I think a 5th grader could read the trumpet judgments and understand they are meant to destroy the earth. So of course I see the entire 70th week as His wrath because they WILL BE His wrath. Can you imagine, for example, God killing 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be in wrath? God destroying 1/3 of the seas and it NOT be in wrath? God making the cattle and sheep perplexed because the fire had burned up the grass of the pastures...and it NOT be wrath? Especially when He foretold doing these very things and calling it the Day of the Lord?

WHY did those at the 6th seal declare that the Day of His wrath had come? Do you know? Do you know the scriptures that were fulfilled at the 6th seal? Study Isaiah 2 and notice that John copied him almost word for word. Then all knew Joel's prophecy and Isaiah's prophecy and when they saw this worldwide earthquake and they saw the moon turn to blood and he sun turned black, they just read the signs and KNEW the Day had started. Then Paul tells us that when people see the man of sin revealed they will KNOW the day had previously started and they are IN IT.

Sorry, but it is simply false doctrine that the DAY does not start until Rev. 19.

Why does "escape" necessarily mean rapture

When we read 1 Thes. 5 we see that it IS or WILL BE an escape from the sudden destruction of the earthquake. THEY get the sudden destruction, while WE get raptured and escape the sudden destruction.
Next, Luke 21:36 confirms it.

 

[iamlamad]

Of course, of course. And whether he comes today or tomorrow, or before or after the rise of the man of sin (although Paul says the man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus' coming), may we be kept in God's grace by the Holy Spirit through all things.

Not when God said the saints will be OVERCOME. Perhaps you should read again Rev. 13 and see why you will be overcome. Will you bow to an idol? Will you accept the mark? I don't think so. When God says you will be overcome, in my mind it is foolish to think you will escape. That is the opposite of what He has declared for you. You will be one of the first people the Beast will go after. Why? Your name is all over this forum! You will be easy to find. And you probably go to church.