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I have a question directed towards Muslims

Percivale

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parakletos and Spirit of Truth needs further discussion.
Trinity can't be understood not, there are tens of questions that can't be answered.
I was just discussing 2 schoolers and they said it can't be understood, it's believed only.


Thank you for fulfilling your promise and read with open minded
It should be no surprise that we cannot understand everything about God. After all, He is incomprehensibly great. Such a difficult doctrine as the Trinity is not the sort of thing people would make up; the most likely reason that it exists is because it is true. I think Christians often don't try hard enough to understand it though; it is possible to understand it well enough to show that it is not contradictory at least. I can try to answer any objections you have to it.
 
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Limo

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I like the way Arthra looks at this, but I doubt it is really what Muhammad meant. Probably why Muhammad said that he was not crucified is that he did not like the idea of prophets being dishonored, and crucifixion is a dishonoring way to die. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches that it does not matter if anyone is dishonored by men, as long as he is honored by God, and Jesus is our example of how we should accept being dishonored by men for supporting the cause of God, and forgive even those who are cruel to us.

What you're saying is a reasoning that Allah didn't tell but it makes some sense.
Prophet Mohamed is telling What Allah puts in his mouth.
Also, What about OT that includes Cursed who hanged on a pole/cross/wood?
 
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brinny

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What you're saying is a reasoning that Allah didn't tell but it makes some sense.
Prophet Mohamed is telling What Allah puts in his mouth.
Also, What about OT that includes Cursed who hanged on a pole/cross/wood?

Limo, do you mean Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living and true God, hanging on the tree?
 
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Limo

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It should be no surprise that we cannot understand everything about God. After all, He is incomprehensibly great. Such a difficult doctrine as the Trinity is not the sort of thing people would make up; the most likely reason that it exists is because it is true. I think Christians often don't try hard enough to understand it though; it is possible to understand it well enough to show that it is not contradictory at least. I can try to answer any objections you have to it.
Believe is by heart but after understanding at least some
You know, basic questions should be answered
One should know Allah? Should know who you're worshiping ?
You can't love someone you don't know very well.
We say If you want to love Allah, you should know him very well
Thank you for the redness to discuss, may be we'll create another thread to discuss, If the rules allows
 
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Limo

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Limo, do you mean Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living and true God, hanging on the tree?
I didn't say hanging on a tree.

It's not me, I wish I'm experienced in Latin scripts

"The Greek word translated “cross” is stauros, meaning “a pole or a cross used as an instrument of capital punishment.” The Greek word stauroo, which is translated “crucify,” means “to be attached to a pole or cross.” Outside of the Bible, the same verb was also used in the context of putting up a fence with stakes"
the complete subject is here http://www.gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html
 
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brinny

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Limo said: ↑
What you're saying is a reasoning that Allah didn't tell but it makes some sense.
Prophet Mohamed is telling What Allah puts in his mouth.
Also, What about OT that includes Cursed who hanged on a pole/cross/wood?
brinny said: ↑
Limo, do you mean Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living and true God, hanging on the tree?
I didn't say hanging on a tree.

It's not me, I wish I'm experienced in Latin scripts

"The Greek word translated “cross” is stauros, meaning “a pole or a cross used as an instrument of capital punishment.” The Greek word stauroo, which is translated “crucify,” means “to be attached to a pole or cross.” Outside of the Bible, the same verb was also used in the context of putting up a fence with stakes"
the complete subject is here http://www.gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html

what point were you/are you making by mentioning this? (see your quote below)
Also, What about OT that includes Cursed who hanged on a pole/cross/wood?
 
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Limo

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what point were you/are you making by mentioning this? (see your quote below)
I'm saying there are even Christian studies that denying the Crucifixion

At least the famous for of Crucifixion on 2 bars like plus sign with pin on hands is not said in bible

Deuteronomy 21:23 "because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"
 
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brinny

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brinny said: ↑
what point were you/are you making by mentioning this? (see your quote below)

I'm saying there are even Christian studies that denying the Crucifixion

At least the famous for of Crucifixion on 2 bars like plus sign with pin on hands is not said in bible

Deuteronomy 21:23 "because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"

The entire premise of the Bible, from Genesis, revolves around this very thing....that anyone who is hung/punished as a "criminal", is cursed, yes.

The One spoken of, innocent of sin, the spotless and holy Lamb of God, dying for sinners, taking upon Himself the curse that was placed on mankind, is none other than the very One spoken of in the Bible.

It is written.

It is none other than Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living and true God:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16
 
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Job8

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My question is how do you know there is a God? How do you know the Koran is the word of God? I have asked mainstream Christians this same question about their belief but none has Ben able to give me an answer.
The answers are there for those who are truly seeking the truth above all else. Study fulfilled prophecies in the New Testament and discover this for yourself.
 
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Job8

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I'm saying there are even Christian studies that denying the Crucifixion. At least the famous for of Crucifixion on 2 bars like plus sign with pin on hands is not said in bible. Deuteronomy 21:23 "because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"
"Pole" is incorrect. That Hebrew word ets is generally translated as "tree".
Strong's Concordance
ets: tree, trees, wood

Original Word: עֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ets
Phonetic Spelling: (ates)
Short Definition: wood

The Jehovah's Witnesses make a big deal out of this today, but they do not deny the crucifixion, and in fact their attack on the Cross is fairly recent:
It needs to be noted that for over 50 years the Watchtower Society used the cross, taught that Jesus died on a cross and even included it on the cover of the Watch Tower:

watchtower_knights_templar.gif


"Jesus was crucified upon the cross" Life (1929) p.216"The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiate the hopes of men." The Harp of God (Rutherford) p.141
It was not until well into the time of Rutherford in the 1930's that the anti-cross teaching was developed. Rutherford started to promote the view of several Protestant preachers that the word stauros was not known as cross until Constantine introduced it 300 years after Jesus death.1 This was supposedly done by Constantine to make Christianity more appealing to the Pagans that were already using the cross as a symbol. This article shows that this is not borne out by history. There is ample evidence that in Jesus' time stauros could refer to a cross, the cross was a common form of torture, that Jesus was crucified and Christians were identified by the symbol of a cross 200 years prior to Constantine. Most importantly, Scriptural references to Jesus death show that he was on a cross.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php

On the other hand, the Koran blatantly denies the Deity of Christ, His crucifixion, as well as His resurrection. The Koran is an attack on the Bible and on Christ.
 
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Arthra

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"There are some who say...." For sure these are not Islamic trusted references at all

For me the "substitution" theory lacks credibility... Jesus was martyred on the cross and He committed His Spirit to God as in Luke 23:46.

The Qur'an also confirms this in Surih An-Nisa (4) verse 158:

"Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

What was raised was His Spirit.
 
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Islam is a continuities of all previous prophets messages
It's not am odd message. It has many agreements with previous messages especially Moses and Jesus.
So it's not based on what is called Christianity, simply Allah told us the truth about Jesus and God
My friend put aside all ready-made debate and discuss what you know and sure

Unfortunately Muslims are TOLD that the Koran and Islam is a continuation of the previous prophet's messages. Unfortunately for them, when you actually compare the Koran with the Messages of the Prophets especially Jesus you will find that is not true at all. The ONLY consistency is that God is one God. But seeing as YHWH differs entirely from Allah - then it comes down to also asking if God is ONE - then Which ONE is God?
Everything known in Islam is recited from the mouth of the supernatural being named in Islam as "Jibril".
The person who actually said the creature which attacked and terrorised Mohammed in the Cave of Hira was Gabriel, is Waraqa bin Naufal - Khadija's [Mohammed's wife's] cousin and also a distant relative of Mohammeds. This man was an Ebionite Christian convert from paganism who was writing the Hebrew Scriptures. [An Ebionite does not believe in the deity of Jesus]. He was well known during Mohammed's lifetime in Mecca, and especially during the 15 years of his marriage to Khadija. It is rumoured that he actually performed the wedding ceremony. And he was planning on the devoutly religious Mohammed following in his footsteps as Leader of the Ebionites. So yes, Mohammed also had contact with the Christian scriptures. He also must have had much contact with the Apocryphal (not accepted) Gospels because stories from them such as Jesus speaking in the cradle and making clay birds fly is taken from them. Having sat at numerous campfires on Camel trips from Mecca to Damascus and back with trading, he would have heard a mixture of tales from many different religions. Including Jewish and Christian.
The Koran is not special in that the Book of Mormon is obtained in the same manner - from an angel who visited a prophet, and gave a new book and a new message.
 
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"Pole" is incorrect. That Hebrew word ets is generally translated as "tree".
Strong's Concordance
ets: tree, trees, wood

Original Word: עֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ets
Phonetic Spelling: (ates)
Short Definition: wood

The Jehovah's Witnesses make a big deal out of this today, but they do not deny the crucifixion, and in fact their attack on the Cross is fairly recent:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php

On the other hand, the Koran blatantly denies the Deity of Christ, His crucifixion, as well as His resurrection. The Koran is an attack on the Bible and on Christ.


JW's also deny the deity of Jesus. They call him "a god" without knowing how to explain it. But to the JW's he is a created being - an angel. They cannot freely say: Jesus is God. And that is the Criterior for being a Christian according to the Nicene Creed.
 
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For me the "substitution" theory lacks credibility... Jesus was martyred on the cross and He committed His Spirit to God as in Luke 23:46.

The Qur'an also confirms this in Surih An-Nisa (4) verse 158:

"Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

What was raised was His Spirit.

Islam does NOT believe that Jesus died on the cross at all.
They believe this:
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Surah 4: 157-158

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
 
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There is a very serious doubt if you start to ask and investigate this issue seriously. This is of course not a question many people would ask though!

There may have been some sort of historical figure called "Muhammad" who taught a form of monotheism, but whether this figure was who Muslims claim he is - a prophet of God who received the perfect word from God, I am 100% sure this person did not exist.

The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.
But even in the Quran, he is mentioned just 4 times, and of those 4 mentions - 3 appear to be referring to a title.
By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.

So we have arguably nothing outside of the Quran about Muhammad, and arguably next to nothing about Muhammad inside the Quran.

So why would anyone think he DID exist??


Having read the Hadith and stories outside the Koran...this person, Mohammed appeared larger than life. There is too much written about him and from him to be ignored. We have his birth date, his death date...we don't even have that for Jesus. We have his marriages, his wives, concubines and likes and dislikes. Yes he was a real historical figure. That he wrote parts of the Koran is fairly obvious because of the known errors such as biblical Characters and story mixups for a start. Not to mention that there are 9 plagues of Egypt not 10 - they are missing the Passover - the most important! That a supernatural being was also involved is as obvious as well. Many claimed he was possessed and he might well have been. He went from a good and gentle man who was known for his honesty and humility in Mecca - to being a tyrant running all of Arabia and keeping warring fierce Bedouins on a very tight leash. All in just 10 years after moving to Medina. There is too much history for Mohammed to have been made up, and too many witnesses.
 
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You recall wrong,

I said I know nothing of Islam, that is why I asked if Isis was the real deal,

cannot see how that is a suggestion.

I personally believe that Isis is closer to what Islam was in Mohammeds 10 years from his move to Medina to his death. It will also be what will be unleashed upon this earth in the end times. His 13 years in Mecca were fairly peaceful and he was persecuted for being bad for business - denying the local deities that made the tribe money. That Mohammed was of that tribe was seen as a betrayal. He was too weak in numbers to make waves or trouble.
But when in Medina, his luck changed...he began successfully raiding the rich caravans of the Meccans, plundering them and sharing the booty with any one willing to join him. As this was the normal lifestyle of the Bedouin - then he had many offers of help. And all those surrendered to Islam.

Mohammed encouraged the taking of Sex slaves in the Hadith - and it is written into the Koran.
The taking of wives as young as 6 is allowable in Islam due to the Prophet's marriage to Aisha.
And it too is written into the Koran at Surah 65:4.
The chopping off of heads to induce terror is also a strategy of Mohammed's.
He beseiged the Bani Qurayza Jews for 25 days before they surrendered.
After they surrendered he beheaded up to 900 Men and all boys with pubic hairs (which was checked) in ONE DAY.
His then 12 yr old bride watched, along with the families of the victims who were then taken as slaves [kept or sold].
Consequently he entered Mecca Peacefully and only had to kill those he had decided ahead of time would die. People who had defamed him.
As most of his original Muslims, including himself belonged to the tribe of the Quraysh of Mecca, and had family members there - it was a boon to create enough fear and terror so that it would not require killing family - in which case he might lose favour.
He was a born strategist.

In the end times the Islamic Jesus [Issa] will return as a man. He will worship behind the Imam Mahdi. His Job is to reveal to the Christians that he is only a man and that they were wrong to worship him - and invite them to accept Islam.
There is a problem with this though...If you refuse Islam - he will have you beheaded - just like the martyrs of Revelation.
Why?
Because his role in the end times is to "Break the Crosses and kill the pigs" Destroy Christianity. And ensure that the worship of Allah is over all the world. Then he will fight the djaal - antichrist and go on to live a normal life, get married, have children and die after 40 yrs. They plan to bury him next to Mohammed.

So...with their end times mirroring ours EXACTLY - we have a successful Islamic uprising or takeover in Europe - not so hard with the amount of refugees - single Muslim men mostly...that are pouring into Europe and the West...and the Muslims orchestrating it in order to achieve their goals.
All while we sit back and let it happen.
Church - we must wake up.
And Atheists etc should also wake up....you will not survive then. They don't survive in Saudi Arabia NOW.
 
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Robban

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I personally believe that Isis is closer to what Islam was in Mohammeds 10 years from his move to Medina to his death. It will also be what will be unleashed upon this earth in the end times. His 13 years in Mecca were fairly peaceful and he was persecuted for being bad for business - denying the local deities that made the tribe money. That Mohammed was of that tribe was seen as a betrayal. He was too weak in numbers to make waves or trouble.
But when in Medina, his luck changed...he began successfully raiding the rich caravans of the Meccans, plundering them and sharing the booty with any one willing to join him. As this was the normal lifestyle of the Bedouin - then he had many offers of help. And all those surrendered to Islam.


Mohammed encouraged the taking of Sex slaves in the Hadith - and it is written into the Koran.
The taking of wives as young as 6 is allowable in Islam due to the Prophet's marriage to Aisha.
And it too is written into the Koran at Surah 65:4.
The chopping off of heads to induce terror is also a strategy of Mohammed's.
He beseiged the Bani Qurayza Jews for 25 days before they surrendered.
After they surrendered he beheaded up to 900 Men and all boys with pubic hairs (which was checked) in ONE DAY.
His then 12 yr old bride watched, along with the families of the victims who were then taken as slaves [kept or sold].
Consequently he entered Mecca Peacefully and only had to kill those he had decided ahead of time would die. People who had defamed him.
As most of his original Muslims, including himself belonged to the tribe of the Quraysh of Mecca, and had family members there - it was a boon to create enough fear and terror so that it would not require killing family - in which case he might lose favour.
He was a born strategist.

In the end times the Islamic Jesus [Issa] will return as a man. He will worship behind the Imam Mahdi. His Job is to reveal to the Christians that he is only a man and that they were wrong to worship him - and invite them to accept Islam.
There is a problem with this though...If you refuse Islam - he will have you beheaded - just like the martyrs of Revelation.
Why?
Because his role in the end times is to "Break the Crosses and kill the pigs" Destroy Christianity. And ensure that the worship of Allah is over all the world. Then he will fight the djaal - antichrist and go on to live a normal life, get married, have children and die after 40 yrs. They plan to bury him next to Mohammed.

So...with their end times mirroring ours EXACTLY - we have a successful Islamic uprising or takeover in Europe - not so hard with the amount of refugees - single Muslim men mostly...that are pouring into Europe and the West...and the Muslims orchestrating it in order to achieve their goals.
All while we sit back and let it happen.
Church - we must wake up.
And Atheists etc should also wake up....you will not survive then. They don't survive in Saudi Arabia NOW.
I personally believe that Isis is closer to what Islam was in Mohammeds 10 years from his move to Medina to his death. It will also be what will be unleashed upon this earth in the end times. His 13 years in Mecca were fairly peaceful and he was persecuted for being bad for business - denying the local deities that made the tribe money. That Mohammed was of that tribe was seen as a betrayal. He was too weak in numbers to make waves or trouble.
But when in Medina, his luck changed...he began successfully raiding the rich caravans of the Meccans, plundering them and sharing the booty with any one willing to join him. As this was the normal lifestyle of the Bedouin - then he had many offers of help. And all those surrendered to Islam.

Mohammed encouraged the taking of Sex slaves in the Hadith - and it is written into the Koran.
The taking of wives as young as 6 is allowable in Islam due to the Prophet's marriage to Aisha.
And it too is written into the Koran at Surah 65:4.
The chopping off of heads to induce terror is also a strategy of Mohammed's.
He beseiged the Bani Qurayza Jews for 25 days before they surrendered.
After they surrendered he beheaded up to 900 Men and all boys with pubic hairs (which was checked) in ONE DAY.
His then 12 yr old bride watched, along with the families of the victims who were then taken as slaves [kept or sold].
Consequently he entered Mecca Peacefully and only had to kill those he had decided ahead of time would die. People who had defamed him.
As most of his original Muslims, including himself belonged to the tribe of the Quraysh of Mecca, and had family members there - it was a boon to create enough fear and terror so that it would not require killing family - in which case he might lose favour.
He was a born strategist.

In the end times the Islamic Jesus [Issa] will return as a man. He will worship behind the Imam Mahdi. His Job is to reveal to the Christians that he is only a man and that they were wrong to worship him - and invite them to accept Islam.
There is a problem with this though...If you refuse Islam - he will have you beheaded - just like the martyrs of Revelation.
Why?
Because his role in the end times is to "Break the Crosses and kill the pigs" Destroy Christianity. And ensure that the worship of Allah is over all the world. Then he will fight the djaal - antichrist and go on to live a normal life, get married, have children and die after 40 yrs. They plan to bury him next to Mohammed.

So...with their end times mirroring ours EXACTLY - we have a successful Islamic uprising or takeover in Europe - not so hard with the amount of refugees - single Muslim men mostly...that are pouring into Europe and the West...and the Muslims orchestrating it in order to achieve their goals.
All while we sit back and let it happen.
Church - we must wake up.
And Atheists etc should also wake up....you will not survive then. They don't survive in Saudi Arabia NOW.

Well, what I think of the "end times" is,
there will be much confusion, there is already much corruption and lies
among governments plus, a great flood of information via internet,

As it was in the Days of Noah, so also will it be at the end of this era.

A flood, of information.
And confusion.
 
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Limo

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For me the "substitution" theory lacks credibility... Jesus was martyred on the cross and He committed His Spirit to God as in Luke 23:46.

The Qur'an also confirms this in Surih An-Nisa (4) verse 158:

"Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

What was raised was His Spirit.
The (appeared to them, resemblance) is not a theory. It's a miracle.

From Islamic perspective,We don't know to what extent this appearance has gone.
The bottom line, El-Messiah was not crucified even for seconds, and he didn't die on the cross.
El-Messiah has been raised to to the sky with body and sole. He'll come again near the end date.
 
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Limo

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Unfortunately Muslims are TOLD that the Koran and Islam is a continuation of the previous prophet's messages. Unfortunately for them, when you actually compare the Koran with the Messages of the Prophets especially Jesus you will find that is not true at all. The ONLY consistency is that God is one God. But seeing as YHWH differs entirely from Allah - then it comes down to also asking if God is ONE - then Which ONE is God?
Everything known in Islam is recited from the mouth of the supernatural being named in Islam as "Jibril".
The person who actually said the creature which attacked and terrorised Mohammed in the Cave of Hira was Gabriel, is Waraqa bin Naufal - Khadija's [Mohammed's wife's] cousin and also a distant relative of Mohammeds. This man was an Ebionite Christian convert from paganism who was writing the Hebrew Scriptures. [An Ebionite does not believe in the deity of Jesus]. He was well known during Mohammed's lifetime in Mecca, and especially during the 15 years of his marriage to Khadija. It is rumoured that he actually performed the wedding ceremony. And he was planning on the devoutly religious Mohammed following in his footsteps as Leader of the Ebionites. So yes, Mohammed also had contact with the Christian scriptures. He also must have had much contact with the Apocryphal (not accepted) Gospels because stories from them such as Jesus speaking in the cradle and making clay birds fly is taken from them. Having sat at numerous campfires on Camel trips from Mecca to Damascus and back with trading, he would have heard a mixture of tales from many different religions. Including Jewish and Christian.
The Koran is not special in that the Book of Mormon is obtained in the same manner - from an angel who visited a prophet, and gave a new book and a new message.
Your books are not as is since your prophets died, It's not in their native language, you don't have scripts earlier that 200 years from the prophets' death. So,You don't know What is the true message of the prophets is ?
Let me explain one important info that many people don't know.
There are no even one source with Roman or Christian or Persian or Arabic other than what is transferred/documented in the Islamic books
All what you're saying are unauthorized without a base allegations.
We don't know the belief of Warqa, his name is told in one occasion only. When the angel Gabriel appeared to Prophet Mohamed, it was something new never happened or heard in Arabic area before. So Khadija consultant someone who reads/writes some books. He told that this a messenger from Allah and used to happen with a few people who are called prophets/messengers. Prophet Mohamed's companions records on him everything sayings, prayers, clothes, hair cutting, walks and stops

If prophet Mohamed was trying to be famous man, he would think smartly to be like the majority of Christian at least he would get Roman's Empire support.
How do you know the true or false prophet?
If he is telling the truth or not? if he told about what is going to happen.
Prophet Mohamed didn't tell anything didn't happen, he told about many things that has been discovered only by modern since.
 
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Arthra

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The taking of wives as young as 6 is allowable in Islam due to the Prophet's marriage to Aisha.
And it too is written into the Koran at Surah 65:4.

Well I would suggest that "Jesus is God" should read the Quranic verse in context as it seems to me to be concerning matters of divorce and having nothing to do with the age of Aisha. In other words the section deals with how divorces should be arranged..

"When any of you divorce your wives, divorce them during their period of purity and calculate the period carefully: be mindful of God, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their homes, nor should they themselves leave, unless they become openly guilty of immoral conduct. These are the bounds set by God. He who transgresses God's bounds wrongs his own soul."

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.wahiduddin/65:1

As to the age of Aisha .. It's true there is a tradition ascribed to her but it was collected well over a hundred years later long after the supposed events... No one knows for sure the age of Aisha because there was no calendar in use until the time of the Caliphate of Umar:

In AD 638 (17 AH), Abu Musa Ashaari, one of the officials of the CaliphUmar in Basrah, complained about the absence of any years on the correspondence he received from Umar, making it difficult for him to determine which instructions were most recent. This report convinced Umar of the need to introduce an era for Muslims. After debating the issue with his counsellors, he decided that the first year should include the date of Muhammad's arrival at Medina (known as Yathrib, before Muhammad's arrival). Uthman ibn Affan then suggested that the months begin with Muharram, in line with the established custom of the Arabs at that time.[21] The years of the Islamic calendar thus began with the month of Muharram in the year of Muhammad's arrival at the city of Medina, even though the actual emigration took place in Safar and Rabi' I.[3] Because of the Hijra, the calendar was named the Hijra calendar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
http://www.christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=63838412
 
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