I have a question directed towards Muslims

[Limo]

Limo said; It means that Jesus grown up in a big lie.

First Mary's Aunt Elizabeth knew, if she knew then so did most of the rest of her family. Elizabeth's pregnancy in her old age was a sign to the family "For with God nothing shall be impossible". Second when Jesus was 12 he went to the temple and taught the priest, his parents came looking for him and he said, shouldn't I be about my Father's business? He knew who he was and what his future mission would be.

Following discussion is in light of Christian belief only not Islamic one which is a totally different story.

Actually, your comment adds more support to what I'm saying:
- Zacharia's wife pregnancy doesn't justify other unmarried family's girls pregnancy. Who knows about other family girls
- Zacharia was a prophet, If he was sure that it's from Allah, he should have known and told all Israelite upfront the pregnancy
- Suppose that Mariam's Aunt and Zacharia's wife understood, what about others. She was suspect for adulteration sin. (She should have lived in shame on front of some people)
- Till 12 years, he was calling Joseph "father" (grown up in Big lie, Son of God was conned/fooled/deluded/beguiled -I disbelieve in Mark's story)
- The Divine Jesus was in Mariam womb (Mother of God) and born with Human Jesus, Did he knew ? When? Why didn't tell Human Jesus since day 0?
- How his Father accepts his Son to grow in such (his son calls somebody else "Father", Mother of his Son (Mother of God) lives in shame). would you personally accept this on yourself?

If I believe in your believe, I wouldn't accept this story from A to Z
it's Belittling Mariam, Jesus, God, Jesus,,, all

Jesus and his mother Mariam needed someone to glorify them and clean their names. Doesn't speak on his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.

 

[Limo]

I agree very much that we all misunderstand scripture and yes scripture has been "distort (change, altered)" 1John 5:7 would be a good example but the Qumran has too. At this website they give 7 different rendition of the Qumran

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171

This is the 171st verse of chapter 4
Sahih International:
“Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”

And then compare to Arberry’s
Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian."

Arberry seems to be implying that it glorifies Allah to have a son.

" These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee" John 17:1

The whole verse is about the virgin birth
"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him."

You have to understand that I don't accept the Trinity it is a distorting of the scriptures but so is the rejection of Jesus as the Son of God.

I believe Allah/Elohim is the supreme God and Yahweh is his first born of the spirit and that He became Jesus. When I read Arberry's translation I agree with it.

One important information you need to know There is nothing called Tranation of Quran. It doesn't exist. We've translation of Quran meanings not the Quran. What is the deference and Why?
- Moslim prayer is not accepted but in Arabic
- Quran is read and cited with the same language and way since prophet Mohamed

Regarding Arburry translation, It's either inaccurate or intentionally he meant the misleading. In this verse only:

• He translated "was a Messenger of Allah" wrongly to "was only the Messenger of God". "The" means "only one"
• He translated "Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son" wrongly to the opposite "Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son"

It's a false translation and not accounted at all

The net message from the verse, Allah is only God, Jesus is one prophet like others, so how come at the end "should have"

 

[withwonderingawe]

Following discussion is in light of Christian belief only not Islamic one which is a totally different story.

Actually, your comment adds more support to what I'm saying:
- Zacharia's wife pregnancy doesn't justify other unmarried family's girls pregnancy. Who knows about other family girls
- Zacharia was a prophet, If he was sure that it's from Allah, he should have known and told all Israelite upfront the pregnancy
- Suppose that Mariam's Aunt and Zacharia's wife understood, what about others. She was suspect for adulteration sin. (She should have lived in shame on front of some people)
- Till 12 years, he was calling Joseph "father" (grown up in Big lie, Son of God was conned/fooled/deluded/beguiled -I disbelieve in Mark's story)
- The Divine Jesus was in Mariam womb (Mother of God) and born with Human Jesus, Did he knew ? When? Why didn't tell Human Jesus since day 0?
- How his Father accepts his Son to grow in such (his son calls somebody else "Father", Mother of his Son (Mother of God) lives in shame). would you personally accept this on yourself?

If I believe in your believe, I wouldn't accept this story from A to Z
it's Belittling Mariam, Jesus, God, Jesus,,, all

Jesus and his mother Mariam needed someone to glorify them and clean their names. Doesn't speak on his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.

Ya know I'm really not following your argument, Mary did not have sex to get pregnant , the baby in her was a miracle of God, there is no shame in that. Not all of Israel accepted Zacharias as a prophet, remember they killed him. Mary and Joseph had to flee because Harod was trying to find him and kill him.

I think you are say that God should have created some great showy miracle to prove Jesus was his son, God does not operate that way.

Matt 12
" 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Are you part of an evil and adulterous generation?

The sign of Jonas is the three days Jesus' body laid in the tomb before he was resurrected which bring us to another point in verse 4:157 & 158, I found this website which takes these verse apart and he says ;

"The wordings of the original Arabic text do not categorically speak of "substitution of 'Isa (a.s.) with another man". Here is the transliteration of the actual Arabic text and its literal translation as translated by other Muslim and non Muslim translators. I hope and pray that this will give the readers an opportunity to understand the "Words of Allah"….

the Arabic text that reads:
"wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

The variations appear in the translation/interpretation of the end portion of the verse which reads: "wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.

Below are the other English translations by Muslims and non Muslim scholars for comparison:

1. Translation by Allama Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
"But they killed him not, nor crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
"...They slew him not nor crucified
but it appeared so unto them;"

3. Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
"...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

In the above English translations the translators have refrained from advocating any specific theory since Allah (SWT) has not mentioned any of the prevalent theories on the subject in this verse or anywhere else in the Qur'an. (I repeat "in the Qur'an")."
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

Arberry’s translation of 4:171 is spot on.
4:157 & 58, Yusif Ali Arberry
and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Now the words of Jesus John 10
“ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep…..Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Luke 23 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The Jews thought they killed him but no man could, when his suffering was "finished" then he gave up his spirit.

John taught us how to discern a real prophet;

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world….In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1John 4

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins…..And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

 

[withwonderingawe]

One important information you need to know There is nothing called Tranation of Quran. It doesn't exist. We've translation of Quran meanings not the Quran. What is the deference and Why?
- Moslim prayer is not accepted but in Arabic
- Quran is read and cited with the same language and way since prophet Mohamed

Regarding Arburry translation, It's either inaccurate or intentionally he meant the misleading. In this verse only:

• He translated "was a Messenger of Allah" wrongly to "was only the Messenger of God". "The" means "only one"
• He translated "Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son" wrongly to the opposite "Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son"

It's a false translation and not accounted at all

The net message from the verse, Allah is only God, Jesus is one prophet like others, so how come at the end "should have"

I upset your belief system didn't I,

 

[Limo]

I upset your belief system didn't I,

Absolutely not, why should I?

 

[Limo]

Ya know I'm really not following your argument, Mary did not have sex to get pregnant , the baby in her was a miracle of God, there is no shame in that. Not all of Israel accepted Zacharias as a prophet, remember they killed him. Mary and Joseph had to flee because Harod was trying to find him and kill him.

I think you are say that God should have created some great showy miracle to prove Jesus was his son, God does not operate that way.

Matt 12
" 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Are you part of an evil and adulterous generation?

The sign of Jonas is the three days Jesus' body laid in the tomb before he was resurrected which bring us to another point in verse 4:157 & 158, I found this website which takes these verse apart and he says ;

"The wordings of the original Arabic text do not categorically speak of "substitution of 'Isa (a.s.) with another man". Here is the transliteration of the actual Arabic text and its literal translation as translated by other Muslim and non Muslim translators. I hope and pray that this will give the readers an opportunity to understand the "Words of Allah"….

the Arabic text that reads:
"wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

The variations appear in the translation/interpretation of the end portion of the verse which reads: "wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.

Below are the other English translations by Muslims and non Muslim scholars for comparison:

1. Translation by Allama Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
"But they killed him not, nor crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
"...They slew him not nor crucified
but it appeared so unto them;"

3. Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
"...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

In the above English translations the translators have refrained from advocating any specific theory since Allah (SWT) has not mentioned any of the prevalent theories on the subject in this verse or anywhere else in the Qur'an. (I repeat "in the Qur'an")."
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

Arberry’s translation of 4:171 is spot on.
4:157 & 58, Yusif Ali Arberry
and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Now the words of Jesus John 10
“ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep…..Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Luke 23 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The Jews thought they killed him but no man could, when his suffering was "finished" then he gave up his spirit.

John taught us how to discern a real prophet;

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world….In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1John 4

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins…..And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

I understood that you're referring to Quran to proof Jesus is Son of God and the sacrifice ?

You went too far my friend. The previous versus you shared is saying He's human and not Son of God

 

[LoAmmi]

Ok but looks like the link didn't get into the post. I'd be interested to have it.
Reading through this portion of Isaiah (notice I don't give it a chpt number ) its seems to me difficult to understand it as speaking of 'a people' and not of an individual person.
verse 8"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who [among them] considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke [was due]?"
In what way were Israel the people "cut off out of the land of the living"?
How does the 'death' of Israel bear upon "their transgressions"?
Is verse 9 a true description of Israel the people?
I'm also interested to know your take on my question to Limo about how God's justice and mercy are reconciled without compromise.
Happy 'holy days' to you
><>

I forgot to include the link! How silly of me. Here you go: http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf

Before I answer anything else, give that a read so you at least have the baseline I'm talking about.

Justice and mercy aren't, in any way, at odds with each other in my view. But we don't have eternal punishment for finite crimes in our faith, so we probably have some differences.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I understood that you're referring to Quran to proof Jesus is Son of God and the sacrifice ?

You went too far my friend. The previous versus you shared is saying He's human and not Son of God

There are a couple of ways to look at this;

A true prophet will bare testimony that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God and that He atoned for our sins. Anything deviating from that witness makes him a false prophet. So either

1, Mohammed was a prophet who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and all that includes but was calling Christianity to repentance for their apostasy with the doctrine of Trinity. And, Islam has gone into apostasy for rejecting the true words of the Qur’an (How do you prefer it be spelled?)

Or

2 He was a false prophet.

*There is another thing which bothers me about the way you read the Qur‘an. “God is only One God” You understand this to mean one being but all the way through Allah uses “we” as an example

“ And if you are in doubt concerning that We have sent down on Our servant, then bring a sura like it, and call your witnesses, apart from God, if you are truthful.” 2:23

In Jesus’ great intercessory prayer he says;

“ 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The word Allah is the equivalent of the Hebrew word Elohim which is plural! They are one in purpose and unity but they are Father and Son.

I think the followers of Islam have been miss led, they have had and anti Christ doctrine pounded into their heads for centuries but I don’t believe that was Mohammed’s intent nor the intent of the Qur’an.

You said; - Moslim prayer is not accepted but in Arabic
- Quran is read and cited with the same language and way since prophet Mohamed

During the dark ages the Christian Church did this too, they hunted down and burned at the stake anyone who tried to translate the Bible into English. Everyone had to learn their repeating prayers in Latin. It hasn’t been all that long since the Catholic mass was recited in English for the first time. Why, because they knew once the common people could read the Bible for what it really said and pray to God for themselves they would lose control.

It’s the way Satan would have it done!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Perhaps it would help to explain where I'm coming from; I'm Mormon. In our doctrine we feel not long after the death and then resurrection of Jesus Christianity went into apostasy thus we reject the Trinity as other Christians believe it. (see Acts 20: 28-32 & 2Thess 2:1-12)

To us El/Allah is the supreme being. Yahweh is his firstborn of the spirit, his messenger or his mediator between mankind and himself. He took on flesh to become the Messiah/Jesus. He is part of the Godhead in that unlike the other spirit creations (call children of God or angels) He always love perfectly and was perfectly righteous thus because of these divine attributes El/Allah gave him the power of creation and made Lord of Host. (see Hebrews 1:2) But even though he created the earth it was under the direction of El/Allah.

In Isa 45 he is fighting against idol worship, he is declaring himself Lord of Host and among those host he is the only one called God or representing God, he alone "...made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded" but He stops short of taking all the glory to himself he says "God/El himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Yahweh; and there is none else."

In John 1 when Nathanael first meets Jesus he says "Rabbi, thou art the Son of El; thou art the King of Israel/meaning Yahweh. He understands Jesus in not Allah. Jesus in fact never revers to himself as God and says God is greater than himself.

When I read this from the Qur'an I think Mohammed also understood who Jesus really was;
“People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.”

 

[Limo]

Ya know I'm really not following your argument, Mary did not have sex to get pregnant , the baby in her was a miracle of God, there is no shame in that. Not all of Israel accepted Zacharias as a prophet, remember they killed him. Mary and Joseph had to flee because Harod was trying to find him and kill him.

I think you are say that God should have created some great showy miracle to prove Jesus was his son, God does not operate that way.

Matt 12
" 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Are you part of an evil and adulterous generation?

The sign of Jonas is the three days Jesus' body laid in the tomb before he was resurrected which bring us to another point in verse 4:157 & 158, I found this website which takes these verse apart and he says ;

"The wordings of the original Arabic text do not categorically speak of "substitution of 'Isa (a.s.) with another man". Here is the transliteration of the actual Arabic text and its literal translation as translated by other Muslim and non Muslim translators. I hope and pray that this will give the readers an opportunity to understand the "Words of Allah"….

the Arabic text that reads:
"wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

The variations appear in the translation/interpretation of the end portion of the verse which reads: "wa lakin shubbiha lahum"

wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.

Below are the other English translations by Muslims and non Muslim scholars for comparison:

1. Translation by Allama Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
"But they killed him not, nor crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
"...They slew him not nor crucified
but it appeared so unto them;"

3. Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
"...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."

In the above English translations the translators have refrained from advocating any specific theory since Allah (SWT) has not mentioned any of the prevalent theories on the subject in this verse or anywhere else in the Qur'an. (I repeat "in the Qur'an")."
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

Arberry’s translation of 4:171 is spot on.
4:157 & 58, Yusif Ali Arberry
and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Now the words of Jesus John 10
“ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep…..Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Luke 23 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The Jews thought they killed him but no man could, when his suffering was "finished" then he gave up his spirit.

John taught us how to discern a real prophet;

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world….In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1John 4

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins…..And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

I understood that you're referring to Quran to proof Jesus is Son of God and the sacrifice ?

You went too far my friend. The previous versus you shared is saying He's human and neither Son of God nor God

 

[Limo]

There are a couple of ways to look at this;

A true prophet will bare testimony that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God and that He atoned for our sins. Anything deviating from that witness makes him a false prophet. So either

1, Mohammed was a prophet who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and all that includes but was calling Christianity to repentance for their apostasy with the doctrine of Trinity. And, Islam has gone into apostasy for rejecting the true words of the Qur’an (How do you prefer it be spelled?)

Or

2 He was a false prophet.

What you're saying is so far from Islamic belief. El-Messiah was a human only and prophet. This in Quran and prophet sayings.
Quran is an Arabic word which can be written in multiple ways in English.

*There is another thing which bothers me about the way you read the Qur‘an. “God is only One God” You understand this to mean one being but all the way through Allah uses “we” as an example

“ And if you are in doubt concerning that We have sent down on Our servant, then bring a sura like it, and call your witnesses, apart from God, if you are truthful.” 2:23

In Jesus’ great intercessory prayer he says;

“ 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In Arabic like in English and I think many languages "the use of ‘we’ instead of ‘I’ by a single person, as traditionally used by a sovereign."

The word Allah is the equivalent of the Hebrew word Elohim which is plural! They are one in purpose and unity but they are Father and Son.

No way, Allah is single word in Arabic

I think the followers of Islam have been miss led, they have had and anti Christ doctrine pounded into their heads for centuries but I don’t believe that was Mohammed’s intent nor the intent of the Qur’an.

For your info, We have Quran and also prophet Mohamed sayings which called Hadith.
Prophet Mohamed explained Quran and everything.
Islamic belief can't be misled by anyone

You said; - Moslim prayer is not accepted but in Arabic
- Quran is read and cited with the same language and way since prophet Mohamed

During the dark ages the Christian Church did this too, they hunted down and burned at the stake anyone who tried to translate the Bible into English. Everyone had to learn their repeating prayers in Latin. It hasn’t been all that long since the Catholic mass was recited in English for the first time. Why, because they knew once the common people could read the Bible for what it really said and pray to God for themselves they would lose control.

It’s the way Satan would have it done!

it's different, Arabic is a living language and we understand Arabic.
Non-Arab Moslem learns minmum Arabic that help them to pray
Quran Translation of meaning are available but not in prayer.

 

[Percivale]

True that God has many names as well as attributes.
In your case, you've only 3 names Father,or Son, or Holy Spirit.
paracletos or pericletos is neither a name nor an attribute in addition It's not related to Holy Spirit by any mean.
Even paracletos or pericletos can't be translated to Spirit of Truth
In general, It's talking about someone/perspm who is going to tell the truth about Jesus and glorify him.

Below is the passage we are talking about. You can see that Jesus mentions the 'counselor' (parakletos) in vs 7, and then calls Him the Spirit of Truth in vs 13 and simply 'the Spirit' in vs 15. Clearly Jesus is not talking a man, but rather a Spirit; the Holy Spirit.
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16 "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

God has hundreds of names and attributes, but has revealed himself to us primarily in three person. The sun affects us in three ways: it is the center of our solar system, around which the earth orbits, it is the source of light by which we see, and it gives the heat that warms us. In the same way, God is the Father, the creator whom we worship, He is also the Son, the one who leads us by his teachings and will come again to rule us, and also He is the Spirit, who invisibly draws us to the right way. One God, revealed to us in three ways.

This question is always on the table of any discussion regardless of what we're saying. I feel even people don't read the responses.
This is one of the comprehensive answer for not only these 2 verses but other ones and Hadith as well http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-262-3441.htm
In summary, Quran guides Moslem to how to deal with all situations War as well as Peace. How to deal with Peacful Non-Moselms and Warier. The second verse is talking about Wariers. One of the best schoolers all over history of Isalm said :
"The term “people” here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (19/20)]"
Allah says 9-10: “Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.”
Also, verses for war all the time is talking about "People, who" it doesn't mean individuals, It's talking about fighting regimes not individuals.


Several types of changes : distort, change, alter, displace, forget
between brackets for different translations
Quran 5:14 "And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot (neglected, abandoned)
a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do."

Quran 5:13: "So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort (change, altered) words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded..."

Quran: 4:46 "Of the Jews there are those who displace (pervert, displace, distort) words from their (right) places"

Quran 2:75 :"Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort ( perverted, change, altered) the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

These are good answers, thank you. The website is especially good, and was quite convincing. I'm not sure 100% but close that that is the right interpretation of the Quran on this issue.

 

[Percivale]

Following discussion is in light of Christian belief only not Islamic one which is a totally different story.

Actually, your comment adds more support to what I'm saying:
- Zacharia's wife pregnancy doesn't justify other unmarried family's girls pregnancy. Who knows about other family girls
- Zacharia was a prophet, If he was sure that it's from Allah, he should have known and told all Israelite upfront the pregnancy
- Suppose that Mariam's Aunt and Zacharia's wife understood, what about others. She was suspect for adulteration sin. (She should have lived in shame on front of some people)
- Till 12 years, he was calling Joseph "father" (grown up in Big lie, Son of God was conned/fooled/deluded/beguiled -I disbelieve in Mark's story)
- The Divine Jesus was in Mariam womb (Mother of God) and born with Human Jesus, Did he knew ? When? Why didn't tell Human Jesus since day 0?
- How his Father accepts his Son to grow in such (his son calls somebody else "Father", Mother of his Son (Mother of God) lives in shame). would you personally accept this on yourself?

If I believe in your believe, I wouldn't accept this story from A to Z
it's Belittling Mariam, Jesus, God, Jesus,,, all

Jesus and his mother Mariam needed someone to glorify them and clean their names. Doesn't speak on his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.

We believe that Jesus was willing to suffer so he could leave us an example of how to deal with it. God knew that often those who submit to him will be belittled and persecuted by evil people, and so he was willing that Jesus and His family also be misunderstood and belittled wrongly. They knew that Jesus was not illegitimate and those who said he was were unbelievers.

 

[Limo]

We believe that Jesus was willing to suffer so he could leave us an example of how to deal with it. God knew that often those who submit to him will be belittled and persecuted by evil people, and so he was willing that Jesus hand His family also be misunderstood and belittled wrongly. They knew that Jesus was not illegitimate and those who said he was were unbelievers.

2 aspects:

• May be belittled and persecuted but not in shame, prophets should be from best of people and no doubt about their honor
• As per Bible, Nobody told people that Jesus birth is a miracle, Joseph tried to covers the issue and that's it.

You are right, it happens in the begining of the preach of the prophet but he then defeats his enemies and his name is glorified.

 

[Limo]

Below is the passage we are talking about. You can see that Jesus mentions the 'counselor' (parakletos) in vs 7, and then calls Him the Spirit of Truth in vs 13 and simply 'the Spirit' in vs 15. Clearly Jesus is not talking a man, but rather a Spirit; the Holy Spirit.
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16 "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

God has hundreds of names and attributes, but has revealed himself to us primarily in three person. The sun affects us in three ways: it is the center of our solar system, around which the earth orbits, it is the source of light by which we see, and it gives the heat that warms us. In the same way, God is the Father, the creator whom we worship, He is also the Son, the one who leads us by his teachings and will come again to rule us, and also He is the Spirit, who invisibly draws us to the right way. One God, revealed to us in three ways.

parakletos and Spirit of Truth needs further discussion.
Trinity can't be understood not, there are tens of questions that can't be answered.
I was just discussing 2 schoolers and they said it can't be understood, it's believed only.

These are good answers, thank you. The website is especially good, and was quite convincing. I'm not sure 100% but close that that is the right interpretation of the Quran on this issue.

Thank you for fulfilling your promise and read with open minded

 

[smaneck]

.

So what was the source used for the Quran account of Jesus/ Isa?
For example, in my Bible Jesus was in a manger (Luke 2). In the Quran he was born under a palm tree (Surah 19)

Probably oral traditions. The Qur'anic account seems very close to an account I recently read in the Talmud, except, of course the part where Jesus, as a babe in arms defends His mother's virtue with the words, "Blessed am I on the day of my birth, the day of my death and the day I come again."
In the bible, Jesus died on a cross (Matthew 27 etc). In the Quran, he escaped crucifixion (Surah 4:157-158)

Who wrote this differing account? Was it given directly to Muhammad? Or has been taken from the same source as the known fraud that is the Gospel of Barnabas?



I don't think that's the case though. You've only got one first-person singular mention of Muhammad in the entire Quran so there's virtually nothing at all that ties him in with the Quran with certainty.
When you compare this versus the bible, and the NT in particular, there's not even the slightest doubt over the passages referring to Jesus - indeed, you can find Jesus in every single book of the entire bible..



What would have been their agenda?



Jesus appeared to many other people aside from Paul post-resurrection. Or were you referring to other NT writers?



Sure, it's possible - but ultimately meaningless is the sense of what was being written in terms of accuracy[/QUOTE]

 

[smaneck]

The crucifixion story is told differently in the different gospels and very weak to the level that some "Christians" don't believe in it

I don't know any Christian who doubts the Crucifixion. They are more likely to have doubts about the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection. If he wasn't crucified then he likely never existed at all.

 

[Arthra]

2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
"...They slew him not nor crucified
but it appeared so unto them;"

There are some who say that the appearance that they slew Him referred to His cause ...and that the Spirit of Jesus could not have been crucified or "killed" only His physical form was crucified... Another verse of the Qur'an indicated we should not view martyrs as dead/killed. See:

"And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, "They are dead." Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not. [Al-Baqrah, vers 154]"

 

[Limo]

There are some who say that the appearance that they slew Him referred to His cause ...and that the Spirit of Jesus could not have been crucified or "killed" only His physical form was crucified... Another verse of the Qur'an indicated we should not view martyrs as dead/killed. See:

"And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, "They are dead." Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not. [Al-Baqrah, vers 154]"

"There are some who say...." For sure these are not Islamic trusted references at all

 

[Percivale]

"There are some who say...." For sure these are not Islamic trusted references at all

I like the way Arthra looks at this, but I doubt it is really what Muhammad meant. Probably why Muhammad said that he was not crucified is that he did not like the idea of prophets being dishonored, and crucifixion is a dishonoring way to die. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches that it does not matter if anyone is dishonored by men, as long as he is honored by God, and Jesus is our example of how we should accept being dishonored by men for supporting the cause of God, and forgive even those who are cruel to us.