Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Bible2+]

keras said in post 4690:

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9). And at one point during the future tribulation, so will the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church, represented by the "man child", be caught up into heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus). And the 2 witnesses will also eventually be taken into heaven (Revelation 11:12). Also, the apostle Paul, at one point during his lifetime, was temporarily taken into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), just as the apostle John was at one point (Revelation 4).

In John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice, which, while it doesn't require the subject ascended by his own power, it can mean that. For example, compare Jesus "rising up" in Luke 22:45.

Regarding Jesus' post-resurrection ascension, the passive-voice ascension in Acts 1:11 can be taken together with the active voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 to mean that Jesus' post-resurrection ascension occurred by both an external power and his own power working together at the same time. An analogy would be a man walking up an ascending escalator. But John 3:13 was spoken years before Acts 1:11 occurred. And John 3:13 was referring to a perfect-tense ascension of Jesus, meaning that it had already been completed sometime before John 3:13 was spoken. This prior ascension of Jesus, like his later ascension in Ephesians 4:8 and Acts 1:11, could have involved his own power. For in John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice.

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . .

In Romans 11:26, the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Romans 11:26b, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" refers to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will get saved when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6).

There are several conflicts produced by your interpretation.
It is the interpretation used by most Dispensationalists.
It can be found on page 349 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza, which is the book that started the modern doctrine.
http://www.futurerevealed.com/biblical/commentary/Coming-of-Messiah-Vol1.pdf


In Acts 20:11 the timing is not indicated by the Greek word "houto".
The timing is indicated by the Greek word "auge" which means "break of day".

(KJV+) WhenG1161 he therefore was come up again,G305 andG2532 had brokenG2806 bread,G740 andG2532 eaten,G1089 andG5037 talkedG3656 a long while,G1909 G2425 even tillG891 break of day,G827 soG3779 he departed.G1831


G827


αὐγή

augē

owg-ay'

Of uncertain derivation; a ray of light, that is, (by implication) radiance, dawn: - break of day.

The interpretation also turns the Apostle Paul into a schizophrenic.
Throughout the Books of Romans and Galatians he makes it clear that salvation is in no way related to bloodline.

The second problem lies in the fact that the covenant mentioned in Romans 11:27 is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.
The deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(This is the New Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ, that was fulfilled at the Cross.)


The third conflict is with the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25.
In the parable of the virgins they had to be ready for the Bridegroom, before He returned.


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
.

 

[Short Timer]

Huh?
Another example of your confused thinking.

So, you have no idea of what firstfruit is or means???

Of all the false doctrines people believe, it's the unbelief that they will ever be held accountable for teaching false doctrine that is the biggest lie,

because false doctrine is the results of refusing to "HEAR" the "Voice" that teaches and destroyed Israel because they refused to hear it.

How can you confess sin you don't think you have, why would you want to crucify a "Body of sin" when you can find nothing wrong with it, especially a "Mental state" that borders on "Genius".

From Abraham until Jesus was 2 thousand years, during that time God had a personal hand in leading Israel and Jews crossed every "T" and dotted every "I" in studying the scriptures, even adding up the numerical value of each letter of scripture searching for "Understanding",

But Jesus turned out to be a stumblingblock instead of a stepping stone,

"WHY"????

For the same reasons we see here, people refused to "Hear him", those "Geniuses" believed they understood the scriptures better than the one who wrote them.

They never learned the first "Precept" to understanding scripture, and that is that God will actually "Blind" the "Carnal mind" to "Seeing/Understanding" the scriptures,

and only reveal the scriptures by the "Spirit" to the "Spirit" of the person who has the "Spiritual ears" to hear the "Voice".

And with the "Falling away", many "Christians" are in the same sinking boat as the Jews.

But how can that be, with the promises God made, and prophesying in his name, casting out devils, and their "ZEAL" for God, there's no way God or Jesus would say:

"Depart from me ye workers of iniquity".

God won't spend eternity with someone who hasn't "Demonstrated" the "willingness" to "Crucify their ideas" and let God be God and "say" how things are, or going to be.

That's the "Plan of salvation" in a "Nutshell".

 

[Short Timer]

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his saints and WITH his saints will occur at the same 2nd coming.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

One of the many ways the church will "Conform to Jesus's image" will be to leave the planet going to heaven the same way Jesus did, "Rapture".

Any doctrine contrary to that is not "Conforming to Jesus's image".

 

[Short Timer]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

This means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11).

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

The "wages sin is death" and since all have sinned "NO MAN" was able to go to heaven to make a "Perfect sacrifice" to pay the wages of sin and bring "Salvation" down to mankind.

That's what Jesus was referring to when he said no man has ascended to heaven to present his body as the sacrifice to pay the wages of sin.

When Jesus paid the wages of sin it open both the door on Satan's prison of sin and the Pearly gates to allow people out of sin and into heaven.

This is carnal mind garbage that no one goes to heaven.

 

[Short Timer]

When someone uses scripture to show that your argument is not valid, calling them an idiot would be a response you could try to use.

However, it reveals who is really in the shallow water...
.

Why do you always post links to videos/books men have made about the Bible,

But never a "Link" pointing to the "only Teacher" send to lead and guide???

Who is Actually, the "Author" that wrote the Bible.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Huh?
Another example of your confused thinking.

This is carnal mind garbage

I should hope that we would stop saying things to each other like, "your confused thinking" and "carnal mind garbage", when we disagree with each other. Because in one place the Scriptures say "You speak against your own brother, you slander your own mother's son", and in another place Paul writes of the Jerusalem above which is "the mother of us all", and in yet another place John writes that "whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

 

[BABerean2]

Why do you always post links to videos/books men have made about the Bible,

But never a "Link" pointing to the "only Teacher" send to lead and guide???

Who is Actually, the "Author" that wrote the Bible.

Maybe you were not paying attention...


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

.

 

[keras]

Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?

It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.
It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.

But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because many scriptures can be made to infer a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none say that people will be taken to heaven.

As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous people.

But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian; ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.

With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for them to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11

 

[Short Timer]

I should hope that we would stop saying things to each other like, "your confused thinking" and "carnal mind garbage", when we disagree with each other. Because in one place the Scriptures say "You speak against your own brother, you slander your own mother's son", and in another place Paul writes of the Jerusalem above which is "the mother of us all", and in yet another place John writes that "whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

There's quite few running around saying lord lord, that's never been saved.

The "Truth" always condemns the Carnal mind and it's ideas of what "Truth" really is,

And when you speak against the "Truth", you speak against God/Jesus.

How much "Respect" for God are you going to show when he said the scriptures are only revealed by the Spirit and Jesus sent the HG to teach, but the HG is rejected as Teacher,

and you end up with 97 different doctrines none of which agree with each other, much less Jesus????

Carnal mind garbage is as obvious as all these different conflicting doctrines,

which wouldn't be the case if all had the same "Teacher".

 

[Douggg]

Jesus opened the Way for anyone to become one of the Lord's people, when He said: I am the way, the truth and the life.....

You are taking a statement by Jesus of "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me" and proclaiming that Jesus's intentions was to open the way for persons to become Israelite's (in your applied logic).

Jesus is not telling anyone how to become a Israelite. Jesus when he said that was speaking to the disciples who were already Israelite's. It's just so far off what you are reasoning.

In addition, your ten points, what you are doing is taking verses from the old testament and the children of Israel were called God's people, in some places - and they were - but it has to be understood that was because of them being a called out nation among the heathen nation's that had other god's as their god. While the children of Israel were God's people because God, the True God, was their God.

And then your rationale is to say because Christians, by virtue of salvation are God's people - therefore Christian's are Israelite's.

But that is faulty logic. We are God's people made so by the blood of Jesus. We are not a nation by the flesh. We are not Israelite's.

Gentiles don't become Jews; and Jews don't become gentiles - by virtue of being saved.

 

[iamlamad]

You are taking a statement by Jesus of "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me" and proclaiming that Jesus's intentions was to open the way for persons to become Israelite's (in your applied logic).

Jesus is not telling anyone how to become a Israelite. Jesus when he said that was speaking to the disciples who were already Israelite's. It's just so far off what you are reasoning.

In addition, your ten points, what you are doing is taking verses from the old testament and the children of Israel were called God's people, in some places - and they were - but it has to be understood that was because of them being a called out nation among the heathen nation's that had other god's as their god. While the children of Israel were God's people because God, the True God, was their God.

And then your rationale is to say because Christians, by virtue of salvation are God's people - therefore Christian's are Israelite's.

But that is faulty logic. We are God's people made so by the blood of Jesus. We are not a nation by the flesh. We are not Israelite's.

Gentiles don't become Jews; and Jews don't become gentiles - by virtue of being saved.

Well said, Douggg! But I don't think Keras has ears to hear. IN THE SPIRIT we are all made one in Him, but there is a physical realm outside of the spiritual realm. MUCH as in MOST of the church today is GENTILE and God even said He will wait for the fullness of the GENTILES to come in. If God can call us Gentiles, I think WE can call us Gentiles. Anyone can pull an Old Testament verse out of context and say it is for New Testament believers: that does not make it truth.

 

[iamlamad]

Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?

It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.
It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.

But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because many scriptures can be made to infer a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none say that people will be taken to heaven.

As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous people.

But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian; ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.

With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for them to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11

There is no doubt, we disagree on what is TRUTH. It is an absolute FACT (and truth) that Israel exists today on the maps and on the globe. Many descendants of Jacob living there are not born again. However, God has said that SOME Of them WILL believe in Jesus. Some not until after the Trib' and not until they SEE Him. They will be the Hebrews that will enter the Millennial kingdom (perhaps along with a few Gentiles) and repopulate the earth. At the same time, the body of Christ today will be CHANGED into Immortal beings and will be JUDGES around the entire planet. There will be 11 or 12 Apostles that will judge the Holy land. There is no scripture anywhere that tells us the body of Christ will live in the Holy Land.

By the way, we think John 14 will do just fine as a very showing we will go to heaven. Not to mention, if I just started looking for prophecies given over the past ten years or so, I could find HUNDRED that say we are going to heaven. God has not been silent about this. Oh, they run about 99.99% PRETRIB.

 

[BABerean2]

And then your rationale is to say because Christians, by virtue of salvation are God's people - therefore Christian's are Israelite's.

But that is faulty logic. We are God's people made so by the blood of Jesus. We are not a nation by the flesh. We are not Israelite's.

Gentiles don't become Jews; and Jews don't become gentiles - by virtue of being saved.

We do know that we are Abraham's seed. This cannot be denied.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those who want to concentrate on the difference between spiritual seed and physical seed need to read what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8.

The problem with your argument is that you are ignoring the fact that there were Israelite branches that remained in the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, because of their faith in Christ.
Only "some" of the branches were broken off.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The wild Gentile branches were grafted in among the cultivated Israelite branches that remained in the tree.
It was only the Israelites who rejected Christ that were the branches broken off.


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


The following passage makes it clear that being part of the Israel of God is not about bloodline.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
.

 

[keras]

You are taking a statement by Jesus of "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me" and proclaiming that Jesus's intentions was to open the way for persons to become Israelite's (in your applied logic).
Jesus is not telling anyone how to become a Israelite. Jesus when he said that was speaking to the disciples who were already Israelite's. It's just so far off what you are reasoning.

God chose Abraham and His descendants thru Jacob, as His chosen people. They failed in their task to be God's light to the nations and He threw them out of the Holy Land. This exile is for a decreed period and Judah have returned, but Israel have not as yet. God knows who they are and soon He will clear His Land and all His people will go to live there, be they true descendants or grafted in people. That is what all the prophesies detail will happen. Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[Douggg]

The following passage makes it clear that being part of the Israel of God is not about bloodline.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
.

Paul was already an Israelite; he did not become an Israelite by being saved.

You are quoting Galatians 6:16, bolding and big letters, but you are not reading the verse correctly.

In Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Gentile; neither circumcision, nor uncricumcision, matters; but a new creature. That is to say a new creation in Christ.

Now in the verse 6:16 - peace, mercy be upon them the new creation in Christ, neither Jew, nor gentile - "and" upon the Jews who have received Jesus, the Israel of God.

Paul was saying that there was still a legitimate nation, by blood, of Israel, but of that nation only the Jews saved were the Israel of God. Peace and mercy upon them.

Paul was not saying that gentiles by virtue of being saved had become Jews nor the Israel of God.

 

[keras]

The wild Gentile branches were grafted in among the cultivated Israelite branches that remained in the tree.
It was only the Israelites who rejected Christ that were the branches broken off.

Calling Jews Israelite isn't wrong, but it does lead to confusion, because they are only 2/12ths of the Israelite people.
An interesting Bible passage is in 2 Chronicles 6:36-39, where Solomon says that if the Israelites sin and are taken into captivity, if then they have a change of heart and turn back to God, as Christians do, then He will forgive them and resettle them back into the Land. Jeremiah 29:12-14, Hosea 11:8-11
Note in 2 Chronicles 6:32-33, how any foreigner who truly calls to the Lord, will be joined with Israel. Isaiah 56:6-8

 

[iamlamad]

Calling Jews Israelite isn't wrong, but it does lead to confusion, because they are only 2/12ths of the Israelite people.
An interesting Bible passage is in 2 Chronicles 6:36-39, where Solomon says that if the Israelites sin and are taken into captivity, if then they have a change of heart and turn back to God, as Christians do, then He will forgive them and resettle them back into the Land. Jeremiah 29:12-14, Hosea 11:8-11
Note in 2 Chronicles 6:32-33, how any foreigner who truly calls to the Lord, will be joined with Israel. Isaiah 56:6-8

In case you haven't noticed it, we live in the New Covenant time and our main scriptures are the Epistles and Revelation.
Of course they (some of them) DID return from captivity. And even under the New, if someone backslides, God will accept them right back into fellowship, if they repent. None of this tells us the New Testament Body of Christ will live in the Holy Land.

 

[Short Timer]

Lets see them Lamad, I can handle long posts ok.
Make sure they all clearly say God will take His people to heaven. Including just where exactly John 14 says that.

Better yet, why don't you explain Matt 22 and the "King" who made a wedding for his "Son".

1. Who is the "king", and where does he live??
2. who were the people invited and turned down the invitation?
3. who were the ones who accepted it
4. how did they get to where the King lived
5. who is the fellow who gets kicked out of the Kings house???

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Better yet, why don't you explain Matt 22 and the "King" who made a wedding for his "Son".

1. Who is the "king", and where does he live??

The Father, in Heaven

2. who were the people invited and turned down the invitation?

Talmudic/Rabbinic Judaism

3. who were the ones who accepted it

Ones not steeped in the traditions of religious man, Jews and Gentiles

4. how did they get to where the King lived

Faith in accepting the invitation and turning from what they were doing.

5. who is the fellow who gets kicked out of the Kings house???

The one who thought he was good enough to attend just as he was.