Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Short Timer]

Your guess is wrong. I am well aware that the House of Israel has yet to rejoin with the House of Judah as per Ezekiel 37.

That right, and "Ephraim" (Church) and "Judah" (Jews) don't become "One stick" until the second coming/MK.

So what happen that caused the Jew to be blinded until the "Fulness of the Gentiles", and what happens at the fulness of the Gentiles that causes the blinders to come off the Jews???

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And you obviously fail to comprehend Ephesians 2:11-18 and Romans 9:6-8, where we are plainly told that all who truly accept the Lord are deemed to be Israelites.

That split between the tribes is also a split between the Israelites and the Jews, those "Samaritans" that accepted Jesus, which the Jews have no dealing with, became known as Israelites while the Southern tribes became known as Jews.

This is a rude and disgusting statement.
Jesus never told anything but the truth and it is you and all who believe the false rapture to heaven theory, who are the liars.

All false doctrine is rude/disgusting, especially when there's no excuse for it,
Which is the reason Jesus sent the HG to "Teach".

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
Father, I do not ask that You take My people out of this world.... John 17:15
Where I go you cannot come.... John 7:34

Where did those OT saints Jesus resurrected go too??

Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord, where is that???

And what is that "Cloud" Jesus sits on in heaven??? (Rev 14:14)

You name is appropriate; the time is short. Time to get the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.

A lot shorter than most realize, according to the time schedule laid out in scripture, we're at the "end of time".

 

[Bible2+]

keras said in post 4679:

And you obviously fail to comprehend Ephesians 2:11-18 and Romans 9:6-8, where we are plainly told that all who truly accept the Lord are deemed to be Israelites.

Good point.

For Ephesians 2:12,19 is addressing believers who are genetic Gentiles rather than genetic Jews (e.g. Romans 11:1). And Ephesians 2:12,19 means that believing genetic Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with believing genetic Jews.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world . . .
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God . . .

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel . . .

This means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.

 

[Douggg]

And you obviously fail to comprehend Ephesians 2:11-18 and Romans 9:6-8, where we are plainly told that all who truly accept the Lord are deemed to be Israelites.

(1) the word Israelites is in neither passage (2) neither passaage states, nor implies, all who accept the Lord are a Jew, Israel, Israelites.

Romans 9:6-8 says of Israel - not all of them are Israel.

 

[keras]

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
Father, I do not ask that You take My people out of this world.... John 17:15
Where I go you cannot come.... John 7:34 Quoted by Keras

Where did those OT saints Jesus resurrected go too??

Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord, where is that???

And what is that "Cloud" Jesus sits on in heaven??? (Rev 14:14)

The OT saints and all the church age martyrs are not resurrected until Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 Their souls are held under the Altar.
Re: absent from the body..... I suggest you read 2 Corinthians 5:5-10 more carefully before making Paul's statements mean what you want them to mean. Paul says we would rather be present with the Lord, but he says in verse 10, this will happen at the Tribunal, where each must receive what is due to him, whether good or bad.
This will the Bema Judgement that happens at the Return, Until then the dead 'sleep'. Ecclesiastes 9:5

The 'cloud' Jesus sits on will obscure Him from our sight, a this event is not at the Return.

How CAN you still believe in a rapture removal when confronted by Jesus' Words? You have no proper support for anyone going to heaven, you cling desperately to verses that are made to seem or to infer such a notion and you are blinded to the real truth of God's plan for His people. Get the truth now, or face difficult times without it.

 

[keras]

1) the word Israelites is in neither passage (2) neither passaage states, nor implies, all who accept the Lord are a Jew, Israel, Israelites.

Romans 9:6-8 says of Israel - not all of them are Israel.

Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isa.1:2-4, Isa 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14-16, Gal. 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalm 78:52, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Eze 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chron. 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Heb. 10:20-21, I Tim. 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deut. 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isa. 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Cor. 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chron. 20:7, Psalm 105:5-6, Isa. 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Rom. 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalm 105:7-10
The NewCovenant is with Christians: 1 Cor. 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Eze. 34:25

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

 

[Short Timer]

The OT saints and all the church age martyrs are not resurrected until Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 Their souls are held under the Altar.

The Altar is in Heaven, but you said nobody could go to heaven.

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Lu 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,


Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Re: absent from the body..... I suggest you read 2 Corinthians 5:5-10 more carefully before making Paul's statements mean what you want them to mean. Paul says we would rather be present with the Lord, but he says in verse 10, this will happen at the Tribunal, where each must receive what is due to him, whether good or bad.
This will the Bema Judgement that happens at the Return, Until then the dead 'sleep'. Ecclesiastes 9:5

If it was "Appointed" to man to die once because of Adam' sin, and Jesus removed that sin and said believer in him would never die,

Why do we still die and who's going to be proved right, God or Jesus????

Foolish question??? No, equally as foolish as some of your foolish doctrine.

The 'cloud' Jesus sits on will obscure Him from our sight, a this event is not at the Return.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,

Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.(Clouds of Heaven)

How can the saints return with Jesus if they are not in heaven to return with him???

How CAN you still believe in a rapture removal when confronted by Jesus' Words? You have no proper support for anyone going to heaven, you cling desperately to verses that are made to seem or to infer such a notion and you are blinded to the real truth of God's plan for His people. Get the truth now, or face difficult times without it.

Sorry, the blind can only lead the blind, and I'm not one of the blind.

It's been my experience that the more ignorant someone is of scripture the more adamant they are about "The Righteousness" of their interpretation of scripture.

When you ask them questions they can't answer about the scriptures, they either ignore the question or attempt to change the subject.

Why don't you explain the "Feast" and their "Application" to events in the scriptures to all of us, that shouldn't be too much to ask of someone who "Understands the scriptures",

I'm sure some would love to hear why Jesus died as both the "Passover lamb" and the "Scapegoat".

Here's a list you can work from.
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

 

[BABerean2]

So what happen that caused the Jew to be blinded until the "Fulness of the Gentiles", and what happens at the fulness of the Gentiles that causes the blinders to come off the Jews???

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Were part of the Israelites blinded or were all partially blinded?


Part of the Israelites were blinded and the other part were faithful and accepted the New Covenant of Christ. Matt 26:28, John 19:30, Gal. 3:16, 29, Heb 8:6-13




The Apostle Paul begins Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed the knee to Baal and the remnant of 7,000 Israelites who remained faithful.

Paul ends chapter 11 in the same way. There were some Israelites who were blinded to the fact that Jesus was the Messiah and were the branches broken off, that can only be grafted back in through faith in Christ.

Then there was also the election of Israelites who remained faithful branches in the Olive Tree by accepting the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.

The Gentile branches were grafted into the covenant among the faithful Israelites.

The word "so" in Romans 11:26 describes the manner of their salvation, by being grafted into the Olive Tree through faith in the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

The covenant at the end of Romans 11, is not waiting on a future fulfillment.

Hebrews chapter 8 clearly states that the covenant is already fulfilled in Christ.

It is “now” in effect. Heb 8:6.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Greek word for "so" is “houto” which is the manner of their salvation, not the timing of their salvation. Some people have changed the word “so” to “then”.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

(Matt 26:28, John 19:30, Heb 8:6-13) The Old Covenant system is now obsolete.



The deliverer has already come out of Zion and fulfilled the Covenant. (John 19:30)

Paul had already explained that only a remnant would be saved.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Promises only come through Christ, who is the One Seed. Gal. 3:16, 29

All of Israel was not "partially blinded".

Part of Israel was blinded and part of Israel was not blinded.

 

[Short Timer]

(1) the word Israelites is in neither passage (2) neither passaage states, nor implies, all who accept the Lord are a Jew, Israel, Israelites.

Romans 9:6-8 says of Israel - not all of them are Israel.

The Northern tribes went into captivity about 135 years before the Southern tribes of Judah/Benjamin, by the time they returned the Northern Tribes had been in captivity about 205 years, and married into ever race present in Babylon.
When they returned the Southern tribes divorced all non Jewish wives, the Northern tribes didn't, this continued the split between them, the Southern tribes even to refusing to let any of the Northern tribe help rebuild the temple.

The "Samaritans" were part of the Northern tribes, living in the land give to Joseph (pre figure of Jesus) and "Ephraim", who is a pre figure of the "Gentiles" and "Church".

Ephraim was going to attack the Southern tribes but God said he would make Ephraim a "People who are not a people" and used a "people who are not a people" to make Jews jealous.

Ephraim was prophesied to be the "Father of a "Multitude of nations", or difference races which make up the Gentiles.

Ge 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

How many people really understand the scripture difference between an "Israelite" and a "Jews"

or that Gentiles as used in scripture are really "descendants" of Joseph, a pre figure of Jesus???

 

[BABerean2]

How many people really understand the scripture difference between an "Israelite" and a "Jews"

or that Gentiles as used in scripture are really "descendants" of Joseph, a pre figure of Jesus???

The Apostle Paul had an understanding of your question.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul said he was an Israelite.

He said he was of the tribe of Benjamin, not Judah.

He also said he was a Jew.

Act_22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

.

 

[keras]

The Altar is in Heaven, but you said nobody could go to heaven.

There IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEAD SOULS AND LIVING HUMANS. The souls of those killed for their faith are kept under the Altar, which we presume is in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 They are allowed to cry out to God and ask for their vindication, but are told to sleep for a while longer, until all the martyr's souls are gathered. When they are awakened, it is them who shout out: Revelation 19:1-3

The rest of your post 4686 is a garbled mix of self promotion and confused error.
You deny the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
Father, I do not ask that You take My people out of this world.... John 17:15
Where I go you cannot come.... John 7:34 Quoted by Keras
What does that make you? 1 John 2:22-23

 

[Short Timer]

The Apostle Paul had an understanding of your question.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul said he was an Israelite.

He said he was of the tribe of Benjamin, not Judah.

He also said he was a Jew.

Act_22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

You best stay over there in the shallow water, this is too deep and way over your head.

 

[Short Timer]

There IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEAD SOULS AND LIVING HUMANS. The souls of those killed for their faith are kept under the Altar, which we presume is in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 They are allowed to cry out to God and ask for their vindication, but are told to sleep for a while longer, until all the martyr's souls are gathered. When they are awakened, it is them who shout out: Revelation 19:1-3

But you said Nobody went to heaven, and I don't think anyone was referring to this "body of sin" going to heaven.
Paul claimed to have gone to Heaven, so did John, in writing Revelations.

The "Body of Christ" certainly went to heaven, but I guess you wouldn't know what that means.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The rest of your post 4686 is a garbled mix of self promotion and confused error.
You deny the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
Father, I do not ask that You take My people out of this world.... John 17:15
Where I go you cannot come.... John 7:34 Quoted by Keras
What does that make you? 1 John 2:22-23

From my former post:
It's been my experience that the more ignorant someone is of scripture the more adamant they are about "The Righteousness" of their interpretation of scripture.

When you ask them questions they can't answer about the scriptures, they either ignore the question or attempt to change the subject.

Why don't you explain the "Feast" and their "Application" to events in the scriptures to all of us, that shouldn't be too much to ask of someone who "Understands the scriptures".

 

[keras]

It's been my experience that the more ignorant someone is of scripture the more adamant they are about "The Righteousness" of their interpretation of scripture.
When you ask them questions they can't answer about the scriptures, they either ignore the question or attempt to change the subject.

This is exactly how you operate. You just ignore the 3 scriptures that refute any idea of going to live in heaven and you attempt to change the subject.
Neither Paul or John said they went to live in heaven, what they saw was visions, they remained and eventually died on earth.
The subject that I could expound at length, is the truth of God's plans for His righteous people and it ain't to park them in heaven. They have work to do on earth. Get that and cease the nonsense of escapism.

 

[Douggg]

Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.

No you are incorrect. Israelites have to be blood descendants of the twelve tribes. Christians, by blood, can be of any people, nations, tongues. By spirit, Christians are each a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile spiritually.

Your 10 points are based up on faulty logic, that goes like this..... A volkswagon is a car, A mercedes is a car, therefore a volkswagon is a mercedes.

The simple fact is that Israelites are blood descendants of the twelve tribes. Christians are spiritual Children of God, children of the promise to Abraham through his seed, Jesus.

 

[Short Timer]

This is exactly how you operate. You just ignore the 3 scriptures that refute any idea of going to live in heaven and you attempt to change the subject.
Neither Paul or John said they went to live in heaven, what they saw was visions, they remained and eventually died on earth.
The subject that I could expound at length, is the truth of God's plans for His righteous people and it ain't to park them in heaven. They have work to do on earth. Get that and cease the nonsense of escapism.

If we believe your theory, those who rejected Jesus and suffer the trib/death because of it, would be in heaven and under the altar before those who accepted Jesus and became the "Firstfruit" of Jesus's mission.

But obviously you don't know anything about "Firstfruit", especially where the feasts are concerned.

 

[keras]

No you are incorrect. Israelites have to be blood descendants of the twelve tribes. Christians, by blood, can be of any people, nations, tongues. By spirit, Christians are each a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile spiritually.

Jesus opened the Way for anyone to become one of the Lord's people, when He said: I am the way, the truth and the life.....
In Revelation 7, we see as you correctly say, people from every tribe, race and language, but from them is selected the 144,000, that is: 12,000 of each tribe of Israel. So how do we figure this anomaly out?
I see it as the majority of those people being actual true descendants of Jacob, from the 10 tribes that God scattered around the world, lost to history, but God knows who they are. Amos 9:9 This will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs, of their posterity inhabiting all of the Holy Land. Those who are not true descendants may be assigned to an Israelite tribe.
The ten points I post in #4685, prove that Christians are deemed to be Israelites. Simple truth.

 

[keras]

If we believe your theory, those who rejected Jesus and suffer the trib/death because of it, would be in heaven and under the altar before those who accepted Jesus and became the "Firstfruit" of Jesus's mission.

Huh?
Another example of your confused thinking.

 

[BABerean2]

You best stay over there in the shallow water, this is too deep and way over your head.

When someone uses scripture to show that your argument is not valid, calling them an idiot would be a response you could try to use.

However, it reveals who is really in the shallow water...
.

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 4686:

How can the saints return with Jesus if they are not in heaven to return with him???

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his saints and WITH his saints will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 4687:

The word "so" in Romans 11:26 describes the manner of their salvation, by being grafted into the Olive Tree through faith in the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . .

In Romans 11:26, the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Romans 11:26b, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" refers to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will get saved when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6).