Pope Francis attacks Christian Fundamentalist Catholics in response to Terrorism

[BobRyan]

From what I can see, in black and white terms. He's talking about people who specifically target their own faith group as a central focus of their mission in life, rather than Mark 16:15. But in grey terms they intertwine the former with the later. In his case it's about Roman Catholics who attempt to indoctrinate other Roman Catholics with their version of what being a Roman Catholic is all about.

He equates them with the terrorists in Paris who do not "target their own Muslim group" when they kill people. So how does that suggest a "Catholic Fundamentalist" as "one who targets his own group"?

What is the specific reference that he makes which defines the idea of ->do not "target their own Muslim group" within his words?

hint - the terrorists in Paris were not "targeting muslims" as we all know by now. Their bombs and bullets were not "specifically targeting their own faith group as a central focus"

 

[Root of Jesse]

My point is not to criticize Francis' crticism of his own church - my question is about the term used "fundamentalist Christian Catholic" that is according to Francis a "disease" -- what exactly is that group? What is the meaning of the term?

You are Catholic - he is your Pope not mine - presumably you know what he is talking about.

I don't presume to speak for the Pope. Your question is of him, ask it of him. Go ahead!

 

[Root of Jesse]

So then - we would expect Seventh-day Adventists to ask a question of the form "What did Francis mean by his reference to Catholic Fundamentalists?"

Glad everyone is on that same page at least on the "easy part".

We would expect someone to get the answer from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Find what he actually said, and then react to it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The quote in the original post bears the marks of being inaccurate. I pointed out that his holiness when speaking in Italian would be very unlikely to refer to the Catholic Church as "Roman Catholic". The onus is on the original poster to providen accurate sources and citations for the alleged statements by his holiness Pope Francis.

Not only that, with Italian not being his natural tongue, and speaking off the cuff, would tend to make one question if he said what he meant. Someone who wants to know should ask him...

 

[Root of Jesse]

The question was not "What did the Pope mean by Roman Catholic Fundamentalists" rather "Catholic Fundamentalists".

And the quote comes from Newsmax. The onus is on those who claim that they have a more accurate source -- to prove it and to show what that source says.

If I wanted news of the Catholic Church, Newsmax would not be my primary source, nor my secondary or tertiary source. I might trust them to alert me that Pope Francis made a statement, then try to find out from a source I trust what he actually said.

What is more -- the OP quotes Newsmax as saying:



Where the only part (in the first sentence) given "in quotes" for Francis is "a disease of all religions" --

The link was also given - for those wanting more detail for the quote

All news organizations - strive for brevity and 'getting to the point' and will always provide a short synopsis with direct quotes embedded so the reader gets the point without having to read through 40 minutes of polemic/pros to get a 1 minute point.

I think we all knew that.

Why you are taking those parts that are not a quote of Francis and claiming that newsmax can't be right - since that part of the text is not a direct quote --- is ... problematic.

Striving for brevity often costs one in accuracy. The problem is that, if one pays attention to the parts not in quotes, one gets skewed information from the author of the article. This is one reason many do not read newspapers anymore, and have developed trusted information sources. Short of sports scores, there's not much accurate in most news papers.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Since the quote appears to be inaccurate in one specific case there is some likelihood that it may be inaccurate in other cases. There is as yet no reason to believe that his holiness Pope Francis referred to "fundamentalists" in the way that the quote states. Once more the onus is on the original poster to provide credible sources for the alleged statements of his holiness Pope Francis.

As I said, I don't know if there's actually "Catholic fundamentalists". There's orthodox and heterodox. Of course it is true that, if one leans too far to the left, or too far to the right, one tends to fall out of the barque of Peter. If the question Bob is asking is like "Are there really people in the Catholic Church like the assassin-monk in Dan Brown's novels, there may be. What would one have to do to inquire of 1.2 billion Catholics...besides, I don't know who I might sit next to every holy day when I go to Mass...

 

[BobRyan]

Striving for brevity often costs one in accuracy. The problem is that, if one pays attention to the parts not in quotes, one gets skewed information from the author of the article. .

Fine - do you have some detail actually in the article that you want to highlight - or is this just generalizations on your part?

 

[BobRyan]

As I said, I don't know if there's actually "Catholic fundamentalists".

Can you say that while insisting that you don't know what the term means??

Perhaps if you could know what the term means - you could also know if the statement was true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Fine - do you have some detail actually in the article that you want to highlight - or is this just generalizations on your part?

Frankly, if it doesn't sound true, I wouldn't waste my time. Fact is, a Catholic news show did mention it briefly, but didn't come to any conclusion. Sort of shrugged their shoulders at it. One of the commentators is a papal biographer of some repute.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Can you say that while insisting that you don't know what the term means??

Perhaps if you could know what the term means - you could also know if the statement was true.

Well, you're so great at defining terms, like Sola Scriptura, why don't you take a crack at it? When it comes to Catholics, I don't generally categorize them, unless I see evidence of lack of orthodoxy. And I guess one could be completely orthodox, and still kill someone in the name of Jesus. Does that make them a fundamentalist? I don't know.
To be frank, I don't agree with the pope on everything that comes out of his mouth. There's nothing in Catholicism that says I should or must. There are some cases where I must accept what he says as authoritative. The case you're all up in arms about is not one of them.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, you're so great at defining terms, like Sola Scriptura, why don't you take a crack at it?

I have asked the question "what does the term mean" - since it is a Catholic Pope we are talking about - then perhaps a few Catholics have an idea of what the term means - and will show how their idea fit the details in the context of the statement made.

Or as you seem to suggest - even Catholics don't know what the term means much less if there even is such a thing as a "Catholic fundamentalist" in the context that the term is being used there.

My point was not to insist that all Catholics agree with Francis.

 

[BobRyan]

Frankly, if it doesn't sound true, I wouldn't waste my time. Fact is, a Catholic news show did mention it briefly, but didn't come to any conclusion. Sort of shrugged their shoulders at it. One of the commentators is a papal biographer of some repute.

So then instead of "it did not happen" we have "we don't know what he means"??

 

[Root of Jesse]

I have asked the question "what does the term mean" - since it is a Catholic Pope we are talking about - then perhaps a few Catholics have an idea of what the term means - and will show how their idea fit the details in the context of the statement made.

Or as you seem to suggest - even Catholics don't know what the term means much less if there even is such a thing as a "Catholic fundamentalist" in the context that the term is being used there.

My point was not to insist that all Catholics agree with Francis.

My answer to you, all along, has been to ASK HIM. No Catholic on this board claims to interpret Pope Francis, nor are we entitled to do so. We don't know what it means because he coined the term. So...ASK HIM.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So then instead of "it did not happen" we have "we don't know what he means"??

Meh. Whatever. You're going to interpret it how you see fit, and argue it to your heart's content. Go for it. We don't really know, or care.

 

[BobRyan]

When it comes to Francis and what he thinks -- it is common to find a few non-Catholics saying about his ideas "we don't really know - or care".

So when we come to this board and ask the question "what did Francis mean by his term - Catholic Fundamentalist" how refreshing to see some Catholics join with non-Catholics in their view of it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If one is careful to extract only the words in quotes then we have this:
... a disease of all religions ... Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous, ... We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others, ... I can say this because this is my Church

When it comes to Francis and what he thinks -- it is common to find a few non-Catholics saying about his ideas "we don't really know - or care".

So when we come to this board and ask the question "what did Francis mean by his term - Catholic Fundamentalist" how refreshing to see some Catholics join with non-Catholics in their view of it.

His holiness didn't say "Catholic Fundamentalists", you did.

 

[Norbert L]

He equates them with the terrorists in Paris who do not "target their own Muslim group" when they kill people. So how does that suggest a "Catholic Fundamentalist" as "one who targets his own group"?




hint - the terrorists in Paris were not "targeting muslims" as we all know by now. Their bombs and bullets were not "specifically targeting their own faith group as a central focus"

There is nothing in the link provided by the OP that suggests what you are stating. Look at the quotes.

Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.

"Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous," the Argentine pontiff told journalists on the plane during his return from a trip to Africa.

Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".

In fact the latter two quotes in no uncertain terms clearly show the idea of "one who targets his own group". It's not like everyone in the RCC agrees with the Pontiff, somewhat a little like stating all Americans agree with President Obama/Bush or whoever is in office. It's just that there is a whole LOT less wiggle room for dissenting voices within churches. Proverbs 6:16,19 "A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren."

 

[BobRyan]

from: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Vatican-religion-pope-France/2015/11/30/id/703942/
Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.

"Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous," the Argentine pontiff told journalists on the plane during his return from a trip to Africa.

Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".

There is nothing in the link provided by the OP that suggests what you are stating. Look at the quotes.

It appears that the question asked is exactly the point. What is meant by the term "Catholic Fundamentalist" since


Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".

In fact the latter two quotes in no uncertain terms clearly show the idea of "one who targets his own group". It's not like everyone in the RCC agrees with the Pontiff, somewhat a little like stating all Americans agree with President

from: http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pope-says-fundamentalism-is-disease-of-all-religions-1249628
"Speaking later in the day as he flew back to Rome, Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the ISIS.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church."

==============================================

The 'deadly Paris attacks' - are not examples of 'confining violent activity to just those within the same religious group' - i think we can all see that.

So then what is meant by the term "fundamentalist Catholics"??

Those who believe in absolute truths such as the virgin birth, literal 7 day creation week? Or those who are just as violent as the example he references in Paris?

 

[BobRyan]

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".

His holiness didn't say "Catholic Fundamentalists", you did.

Ok so another vote for 'never happened' -- I think that is two so far for that one.

 

[Norbert L]

from: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Vatican-religion-pope-France/2015/11/30/id/703942/
Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.

"Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous," the Argentine pontiff told journalists on the plane during his return from a trip to Africa.

Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".





It appears that the question asked is exactly the point. What is meant by the term "Catholic Fundamentalist" since


Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".



from: http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pope-says-fundamentalism-is-disease-of-all-religions-1249628
"Speaking later in the day as he flew back to Rome, Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the ISIS.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church."

==============================================

The 'deadly Paris attacks' - are not examples of 'confining violent activity to just those within the same religious group' - i think we can all see that.

So then what is meant by the term "fundamentalist Catholics"??

Those who believe in absolute truths such as the virgin birth, literal 7 day creation week? Or those who are just as violent as the example he references in Paris?

The author of that article did not put quotation marks around -> Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.<- when he (the author/journalist) of the article stated "Francis said". Such a thing is at best editorializing or at worst intellectually dishonest and starts walking very closely down the path of bearing a false witness.

So no, Francis did not say "Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State."

The Pope gave the answer to what he meant by: What is meant by the term "Catholic Fundamentalist"? Here is what he can be quoted as saying "We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others,"