Pope Francis attacks Christian Fundamentalist Catholics in response to Terrorism

[Armoured]

from: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Vatican-religion-pope-France/2015/11/30/id/703942/


What is Francis saying about his fellow Catholics who are "fundamentalist"??

1. They are violent extremists Catholics just as we find among some Muslims?
2. Their belief in "Absolute truth" makes them like Muslim extremists even if they are not violent?

Who are these violent Catholic fundamentalists? Or is this even what he is talking about?

What is meant by a Christian Fundamentalist?

One who "believes the Bible"??

One who believes in a literal real - historic - virgin birth?
One who believes in a literal real - historic - resurrection of Christ?
One who believes in a literal real - historic - 7 day creation week?

or one who "is violent" and attributes their violence to their Christian faith no matter whether they believe in praying to Mary or not? or whether they believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ or not?

Pope Francis is the head of the Catholic Church, it is entirely his place to criticise other Catholics if he deems fit. What's the problem?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I do not believe that his holiness Pope Francis said the words included as a quote in the original post. For one thing his holiness rarely speaks in English and for another it is very unlikely that he would call the Catholic Church "Roman Catholic" when speaking in Italian.

That term 'Roman Catholic' is a pretty much a giveaway that there has been some editing by somebody. So what we need is to find the comments in the original languages they were spoken in, in full context. And then the analysis can begin on a solid footing. I was hoping Bob Ryan could explain it all, being Seventh Day Adventist and thus expert on everything Catholic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have never thought of Seventh Day Adventists as experts on Catholicism. Some post as if they are but their claims are usually inaccurate.

That term 'Roman Catholic' is a pretty much a giveaway that there has been some editing by somebody. So what we need is to find the comments in the original languages they were spoken in, in full context. And then the analysis can begin on a solid footing. I was hoping Bob Ryan could explain it all, being Seventh Day Adventist and thus expert on everything Catholic.

 

[BobRyan]

Pope Francis is the head of the Catholic Church, it is entirely his place to criticise other Catholics if he deems fit. What's the problem?

My point is not to criticize Francis' crticism of his own church - my question is about the term used "fundamentalist Christian Catholic" that is according to Francis a "disease" -- what exactly is that group? What is the meaning of the term?

You are Catholic - he is your Pope not mine - presumably you know what he is talking about.

 

[BobRyan]

Fundamentalists are sometimes subject to the temptation of absolutist views which might be used to categorize groups of individuals as, for example, enemies.

So then for example - calling for the "extermination of heretics"??

So in your POV Francis' reference to "Catholic Fundamentalist" christians are those who would identify some Christians as heretics and seek to take their homes, business lands, "exterminate them" etc? Lateran IV style?

IF that is what he refers to - then truly a wonder that nobody is selecting "option 1".

A lot of interesting points have been made so I will just make a brief reply.
The absolutist views of Fundamentalism subjects us to the temptation of extremism as opposed to compassion and balance.

Another temptation of Fundamentalism is a kind of wilfull ignorance, that is, a refusal of making an intellectually honest investigation of the truth.

Those who do investigate are subject to selectivism, that is, choosing facts which support their view while discarding those that do not.

I can give one example on a subject that I know quite a lot about, having studied it in depth for several years: Islam.

Those who decry Islam in its entirety as an enemy are the most ignorant about it

Do you think Francis is highlighting the events in Paris to attack so-called "Catholic fundamentalists" who may be viewing islam in a negative light - while at the same time equating Catholic Fundamentalists with the Muslims in Paris that carried out the attacks?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I have never thought of Seventh Day Adventists as experts on Catholicism. .

So then - we would expect Seventh-day Adventists to ask a question of the form "What did Francis mean by his reference to Catholic Fundamentalists?"

Glad everyone is on that same page at least on the "easy part".

 

[BobRyan]

I do not believe that his holiness Pope Francis said the words included as a quote in the original post. For one thing his holiness rarely speaks in English and for another it is very unlikely that he would call the Catholic Church "Roman Catholic" when speaking in Italian.

So then "if it was translated then it did not happen" -- should have included that ... as one of the responses. Any news item that is not of one's preference probably "did not happen"??

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jehovah's witnesses have a poorly translated bible that few who are not members of that group believe to be accurate. Quotes from that translation are checked against more reliable translations into English. The same approach is needed with the quote in the original post. It needs to be checked against reliable translations before entertaining any claims that it is what his holiness Pope Francis said.

So then "if it was translated then it did not happen" -- should have included that ... as one of the responses. Any news item that is not of one's preference probably "did not happen"??

 

[BobRyan]

Jehovah's witnesses have a poorly translated bible that few who are not members of that group believe to be accurate. Quotes from that translation are checked against more reliable translations into English. The same approach is needed with the quote in the original post. It needs to be checked against reliable translations before any entertaining claims that it is what his holiness Pope Francis said.

Those with the more accurate quotes -- welcome - but make your case for why yours is more accurate than newsmax or the other independent sources linked to so far.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The quote in the original post bears the marks of being inaccurate. I pointed out that his holiness when speaking in Italian would be very unlikely to refer to the Catholic Church as "Roman Catholic". The onus is on the original poster to provide accurate sources and citations for the alleged statements by his holiness Pope Francis.

Those with the more accurate quotes -- welcome - but make your case for why yours is more accurate than newsmax or the other independent sources linked to so far.

 

[BobRyan]

The quote in the original post bears the marks of being inaccurate. I pointed out that his holiness when speaking in Italian would be very unlikely to refer to the Catholic Church as "Roman Catholic".

The question was not "What did the Pope mean by Roman Catholic Fundamentalists" rather "Catholic Fundamentalists".

And the quote comes from Newsmax. The onus is on those who claim that they have a more accurate source -- to prove it and to show what that source says.

What is more -- the OP quotes Newsmax as saying:

Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.

Where the only part (in the first sentence) given "in quotes" for Francis is "a disease of all religions" --

The link was also given - for those wanting more detail for the quote

All news organizations - strive for brevity and 'getting to the point' and will always provide a short synopsis with direct quotes embedded so the reader gets the point without having to read through 40 minutes of polemic/pros to get a 1 minute point.

I think we all knew that.

Why you are taking those parts that are not a quote of Francis and claiming that newsmax can't be right - since that part of the text is not a direct quote --- is ... problematic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since the quote appears to be inaccurate in one specific case there is some likelihood that it may be inaccurate in other cases. There is as yet no reason to believe that his holiness Pope Francis referred to "fundamentalists" in the way that the quote states. Once more the onus is on the original poster to provide credible sources for the alleged statements of his holiness Pope Francis.

 

[Armoured]

My point is not to criticize Francis' crticism of his own church - my question is about the term used "fundamentalist Christian Catholic" that is according to Francis a "disease" -- what exactly is that group? What is the meaning of the term?

You are Catholic - he is your Pope not mine - presumably you know what he is talking about.

I do. Become a Catholic and I can explain it to you.

 

[BobRyan]

I do. Become a Catholic and I can explain it to you.

I am fine with some posters claiming that "only a Catholic can be told about this - and it must be by a fellow Catholic" - because that sort of solution says a lot about the system it comes from.

I just don't think many people will go for it.

 

[BobRyan]

Since the quote appears to be inaccurate in one specific case there is some likelihood that it may be inaccurate in other cases.

Actually -- your own claim that NewsMax claimed Francis used the phrase "Roman Catholic" was found to be inaccurate.

How is it that your own innaccurate statement can be blamed on NewsMax??

There is as yet no reason to believe that his holiness Pope Francis referred to "fundamentalists" in the way that the quote states.

Other than reading the actual news accounts?

Once more the onus is on the poster who has made provably inaccurate statements about the News report as if the News outlets claimed to quote Francis saying the phrase "Roman Catholic". Such a poster would need to make some correct statement about the quote - and then show that whatever accusation they make about it can be shown to be true.

How is this not "the easy part"?

In the mean time you are also not answering the question asked in the OP - what was meant by "Catholic Fundamentalist"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh, so his holiness didn't say "Roman catholic church" even though you put it in bold text in the quote. Why did you make the text bold then? If it was merely editorial comment from the article writer it has no significance as far as the actual statements of his holiness pope Francis is concerned. And the verbiage about fundamentalism appears to be from the article's author too. If one is careful to extract only the words in quotes then we have this:

... a disease of all religions ... Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous, ... We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others, ... I can say this because this is my Church​

The original post asks

What is Francis saying about his fellow Catholics who are "fundamentalist"??

And the answer is: only that there are some who can be described as fundamentalist in so far as they believe that they know absolute truth and insofar as they corrupt others with such beliefs about themselves. The last part of the quote probably ought to be interpreted as meaning "I can say this because this is the Church of which I am a member" albeit a very prominent member.

 

[Norbert L]

That is the question asked by this thread.

So far no one takes any of the options - not even "I don't know" as the option or "I don't know what the Pope meant" as the option.

From what I can see, in black and white terms. He's talking about people who specifically target their own faith group as a central focus of their mission in life, rather than Mark 16:15. But in grey terms they intertwine the former with the later. In his case it's about Roman Catholics who attempt to indoctrinate other Roman Catholics with their version of what being a Roman Catholic is all about.

 

[BobRyan]

From what I can see, in black and white terms. He's talking about people who specifically target their own faith group as a central focus of their mission in life, rather than Mark 16:15. But in grey terms they intertwine the former with the later. In his case it's about Roman Catholics who attempt to indoctrinate other Roman Catholics with their version of what being a Roman Catholic is all about.

He equates them with the terrorists in Paris who do not "target their own Muslim group" when they kill people. So how does that suggest a "Catholic Fundamentalist" as "one who targets his own group"?

 

[BobRyan]

What is more -- the OP quotes Newsmax as saying:

Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.
Where the only part (in the first sentence) given "in quotes" for Francis is "a disease of all religions" --

The link was also given - for those wanting more detail for the quote

All news organizations - strive for brevity and 'getting to the point' and will always provide a short synopsis with direct quotes embedded so the reader gets the point without having to read through 40 minutes of polemic/pros to get a 1 minute point.

Hence my question is "what is meant by the term Catholic Fundamentalist " and not "ROMAN Catholic Fundamentalist"

Oh, so his holiness didn't say "Roman catholic church" even though you put it in bold text in the quote.

It is in the quote of NewsMax - but not in the quote of Francis that NewsMax gives - funny how "News reporting works" eh? They provide a summary and also quotes of their source to show the case they are making is valid.

Why did you make the text bold then?

See all the bold text in this post -- it is not bolded as a claim that it is a quote of francis. Rather the quote marks are used to show a quote.

This was the part you were confused about?? really??

And the answer is: only that there are some who can be described as fundamentalist in so far as they believe that they know absolute truth and insofar as they corrupt others with such beliefs about themselves. The last part of the quote probably ought to be interpreted as meaning "I can say this because this is the Church of which I am a member" albeit a very prominent member.

Ahh - one more person willing to "answer the question" rather than (it's a secret)-- I thank you!

Looks like option 2 or 3.

A non-violent Christian believer in a literal creation week or a literal virgin birth(As absolute truth)

Some undefined group that believes that they know absolute truth on some point?

 

[Norbert L]

He equates them with the terrorists in Paris who do not "target their own Muslim group" when they kill people. So how does that suggest a "Catholic Fundamentalist" as "one who targets his own group"?

What is the specific reference that he makes which defines the idea of ->do not "target their own Muslim group" within his words?