Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Short Timer]

Was that before or after Paul said this?:
1 Cor 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (Grace period)

Everybody who isn't saved are still under the law, of death for sin.

But under OT law people were executed on the spot for certain sins such as adultery, but the woman caught in adultery and brought to Jesus wasn't stoned "on the spot".

 

[Riberra]

You really need to learn which scriptures are about Antiochus Epiphanes and the Beast to come. Daniel 8 is about ANTIOCHUS, not the Antichrist. He was a TYPE of the Antichrist to come.

Do you mean that the Little Horn of Daniel 8:9 was Antiochus Epiphane ?

Daniel 8

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious [land].

Daniel 11
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he pervert by flatteries;....

The Third Temple Will Be Built for Antichrist Not Jesus Christ
http://chainedeagles.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-third-temple-will-be-built-for.html

 

[Riberra]

You don't consider the plagues of the two witnesses to be "Signs and wonders"????

I don't think -plagues- is defined as being -wonders- in the dictionary or in the Bible.

Signs and wonders will be made by the False Prophet in the presence of the AC.

Revelation 13

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

 

[Riberra]

Double post.

 

[Bible2+]

parousia70 said in post 4094:

Someone forgot to tell that to Paul:
1 Cor 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

In 1 Corinthians 9:20, only some Jews were under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, not because it was still in effect for people as far as God was concerned (it wasn't), but because they were willingly and mistakenly continuing to place themselves under it (cf. Galatians 4:21 to Galatians 5:1).

When Paul was among only Jews who mistakenly thought they were still under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, his merely acting like he also was still under it (1 Corinthians 9:20, Acts 21:26) was to maintain his credibility among those Jews, in the hope this would give him sufficient continued access to them (cf. Acts 16:3), give him enough more time with them to where he might be able to gradually persuade them to accept his correct point of view (1 Corinthians 9:20) that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on Jesus' Cross for both Jews and Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8).

parousia70 said in post 4094:

Someone also forgot to let the inspired writer of Hebrews in on that little factoid too:

Heb 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:13 means that when the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century BC prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 about the 1st century AD making of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6), which wouldn't be according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32, Romans 7:6), Jeremiah's prophecy, as soon as it was made, had immediately made the letter of the Mosaic-law covenant "old" and headed inexorably toward a future extinction (Hebrews 7:18-19). This extinction occurred not in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

*******

parousia70 said in post 4109:

And this future temple, built by Christ rejecting Jews, who do not have the Father either, will be "The Temple of God"..... How?

The future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building -- which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 -- will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww said in post 4091:

The eastern part of the Roman empire now being revived (wound healed) in the Islamic caliphate or the eighth.

Do you mean that the Antichrist's empire will be Islamic?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Also, even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Postvieww said in post 4091:

The eastern part of the Roman empire now being revived (wound healed) in the Islamic caliphate or the eighth.

Similar to what you pointed out in your post #4091, the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). And the 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10).

But the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

Postvieww said in post 4091:

The ten horns are 10 Islamic nations from the eastern division of Rome that will fulfill this verse.

Note that the 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, including some nations which will be non-Islamic, and which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 4110:

The law requires the death of the body of sin, so why does those in the trib have to literally sacrifice their body of sin while the church doesn't???

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that during the tribulation the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law will go back into effect for people as far as God is concerned.

Also, while Revelation 13:7-10 does show that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be no different than how the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Also, Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Short Timer said in post 4111:

This Grace period of the church ended the OT/law and Grace too will come to an end with the rapture of the church and Israel will go back under the OT/law to finish Daniels prophecy.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

 

[n2thelight]

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
............................................................................................................................................................................

The world will believe satan/ac or whatever name you wish to call him ,is Christ......That's the lie that the world shall believe ....

satan will not make you renounce God you will believe that he is God....Those who know the truth will no that he is not

 

[n2thelight]

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
.............................................................................................................................................................................

No one Jew or anybody else will be saved when they see Christ,at that time it will be too late,that's like saying one can do whatever they want,and when they see Christ,be ashamed and be saved.,...Dos'nt work that way.....

All will have to work for it,that is the purpose of the Milennium,to teach...Those being taught are called the dead,as they have yet to put on immortality...........

 

[BABerean2]

I've noticed that ya'll have divided God's wrath from Satan's wrath as if Satan is exercising his wrath against the "will of God".

Why is it ya'll don't understand that everything that does occurs is because God is "Willing" for it to occur????

If the temple wasn't a "Holy Place" how could the AC sitting in the temple be an abomination to God,

Would the same apply if the AC was sitting in McDonald's???

If you look at the history of Israel, you will see that God allowed them to be conquered as a nation, when that nation turned its back on God, but the God-fearing remnant of believers was preserved.

From what we see today, America appears to be on the same path. During my lifetime this nation has turned from God and although this is painful to say, the enemies of God are now running the country.

The first word in the First Amendment is "Congress". The amendment was written only as a prohibition upon Congress.
However, over a period of time the Supreme Court has extended it to the "states" and now even to "local governments".
John Adams would be shocked if he were alive today to see how this amendment has been perverted.

We did not divide God's wrath from Satan's wrath. God's wrath clearly comes after we are gathered at the 7th trump, which is the last trump in the Bible.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The New Testament "temple" is Jesus Christ and those who have the Holy Spirit inside of them.


Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


The man who sits in the New Testament temple of God claiming that he is God, must be a man in the Church.

The McDonald's you were referring to would be Margaret Macdonald, who had a so-called "vision" about a "Secret Rapture" of the Church in 1830.
Her "Secret Rapture" vision spread like a virus through the evangelical Church, after John Nelson Darby came to our nation.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS

with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.

F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
.

 

[Short Timer]

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that during the tribulation the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law will go back into effect for people as far as God is concerned.

The reason "WHY" everything that happens is explained by the "Precepts" of scripture, blessing because of obedience, cursed because of disobedience, is the simplest of them to understand.

But as far as your understanding of scripture, they might as well not be in the scriptures, you read "WHAT" happens and then try to interpret it by whatever "seemeth right" to you.

So your first problem is not understanding how the scriptures are written and how they're to be interpreted, but that is not the "REALLY BIG PROBLEM",

Scripture make no bones about it, the only way scripture can/will be understood is by the "SPIRIT TEACHING",
No spirit teaching, no relationship can exit between the person and God.

Jews have a "Zeal for God", but not in Righteousness, because they too refuse to "Heard Jesus" or the HG teaching.

this will be no different than how the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

So the trib won't be a times such as never been before???

There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

That's the same thing Jews said about Christians who refused to obey the law.
There's ignorance on both sides.

Also, Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Are the scripture wrong in saying no flesh would survive "except" Jesus returned???

Your "way that seemeth right" is saying the scripture are wrong,

some flesh has God's protection and could survive even if Jesus didn't return.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Jews didn't think the "law and Prophets/temple/sacrifice" would ever end either,

They got fooled and so will you.

I'd advise you and some others to take a long hard look at where you are with God, because what you're saying/teaching don't match what the "Word of God" says.

 

[iamlamad]

I've noticed that ya'll have divided God's wrath from Satan's wrath as if Satan is exercising his wrath against the "will of God".

Why is it ya'll don't understand that everything that does occurs is because God is "Willing" for it to occur????

If the temple wasn't a "Holy Place" how could the AC sitting in the temple be an abomination to God,

Would the same apply if the AC was sitting in McDonald's???

Ha ha! Good answer!

 

[Short Timer]

If you look at the history of Israel, you will see that God allowed them to be conquered as a nation, when that nation turned its back on God, but the God-fearing remnant of believers was preserved.

From what we see today, America appears to be on the same path. During my lifetime this nation has turned from God and although this is painful to say, the enemies of God are now running the country.

I agree, but is it the sinners who are falling away or is it the Church???

Take a look at this board, 37 different doctrines on every pages, do you think the HG is teaching all these different doctrines???

It's the people who call themselves "Christians" that have "Closed their eyes/ears" to Jesus/God, teaching a "way that seemeth right" and have no Relationship with Jesus/God through the spirit,

Consequently they don't have the "Power of the Spirit" to convince/convert the world to the Gospel.

Nothing change about God, that same power Paul had to start a church in nations of Muslims/Jews is still available to the church today, but most in the church don't think they need that spirit power, whatever seemeth right to them is all they need to get the job done.

Only five of the ten virgins, only one of the two in the field left in the rapture, that's 50% of the church left behind to enter the trib,

"WHY", because of what we see here on this board, they don't have the ears to heard today the same voice that will rapture the church, It won't be just the virgins banging on that door, it will be a "mob" of people.

The first word in the First Amendment is "Congress". The amendment was written only as a prohibition upon Congress.
However, over a period of time the Supreme Court has extended it to the "states" and now even to "local governments".
John Adams would be shocked if he were alive today to see how this amendment has been perverted.

I don't blame the Government, the "Second Amendment" gives the people the "RIGHT" to be armed sufficiently to overthrow any who might attempt to create a Dictatorship, there's been enough laws violated by the President and some in Congress to have justified them being thrown out of government a long time ago.

But people who won't "Crucify the flesh" certainly won't put the "life of the flesh" in jeopardy by fighting for their freedoms, but think it's OK to ask someone else to fight/die for freedom, like the young men/women in the armed forces.

I just have one word for these people. "HYPOCRITES".

We did not divide God's wrath from Satan's wrath. God's wrath clearly comes after we are gathered at the 7th trump, which is the last trump in the Bible.

God sending a strong delusion with lying signs and wonders to fool people into going to hell is not wrath???

The New Testament "temple" is Jesus Christ and those who have the Holy Spirit inside of them.

Much of the church is just as ignorant of scripture as the Jews are,

they didn't believe the OT/God would change into Jesus/NT,

and the church doesn't believe Jesus/NT will change back to the OT/God.

Neither has "ears to hear" the "Truth", when "HE" speaks.

The man who sits in the New Testament temple of God claiming that he is God, must be a man in the Church

With the church rapture, why would he have to be a church member???

The AC will claim to be a descendant of Abraham, that way the Jews can accept him as Messiah and Arabs as the 12th Imam,

"Church" is offensive to both Jews and Arabs, one mention of Church/Jesus, and he's out the door.

The McDonald's you were referring to would be Margaret Macdonald, who had a so-called "vision" about a "Secret Rapture" of the Church in 1830.
Her "Secret Rapture" vision spread like a virus through the evangelical Church, after John Nelson Darby came to our nation.

"TRUTH" always spreads like a "Virus", Paul spread it all over the Middle East,

The church doesn't have enough to spread across America, much less around the world.

 

[parousia70]

Take a look at this board, 37 different doctrines on every pages, do you think the HG is teaching all these different doctrines???

Absolutely not.
The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

I don't blame the Government, the "Second Amendment" gives the people the "RIGHT" to be armed sufficiently to overthrow any who might attempt to create a Dictatorship,

The Second Amendment gives you the right to personally own and operate a nuclear weapon?

and the church doesn't believe Jesus/NT will change back to the OT/God.

The church should reject any notion God will move backward in his redemptive plan.

That is the real "replacement theology" that should be rejected.

Dismissing the Once for all time, perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross, cancelling the "forever Priesthood" of Jesus and replacing it with the Blood of Bulls and Goats was flat out rejected by the Apostles and therefore should be flat out rejected by the Church.

 

[Bro.T]

You said the Israelite were still in captivity.

Did the Southern tribes go into captivity at the same time as the Northern Tribes???

The nation was split, and still remains split until today, the two Southern tribes became known a Jews, the Northern Tribes as Israelite.

Kinda like Yankee and Rebel here in the states.

The Jews mostly still reject Jesus while the Israelite of the northern tribes represented by the "Samaritans" accept Jesus.

I said the true Israelites are still in captivity. Whats your point in jumping in this conversation with no Biblical proof?

 

[Postvieww]

Do you mean that the Antichrist's empire will be Islamic?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Also, even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).



Similar to what you pointed out in your post #4091, the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). And the 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10).

But the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.



Note that the 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, including some nations which will be non-Islamic, and which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Bible2+ said:

Do you mean that the Antichrist's empire will be Islamic?

Could be. They appear the most prominent antichrist force in the world today, they rule by force, they are the ones cutting off heads. Antichrist will rule by force requiring everyone to take a mark or be killed. Many Islamists already wear a mark on their forhead. Sounds like a familiar MO.

Bible 2+said:

And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God

Christians cannot agree on what the Bible says or means, why would one think all in Islam will follow the letter of the Koran?

Bible 2+said:

Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

If you ask any faithful Muslim if they worship idols they will say no, but they bow down and kiss the Kaaba or black stone in Mecca. I call that worship.

Bible2+said:

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), Amen could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

The current pope has already made overtures to Islam.

I believe you have everything too neatly packaged, by doing so you discount:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...

Bible 2+ said:

the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

Zech. 5 is not talking about rebuilding Mystery Babylon, it is about the “flying roll” vs 1 (could be a nuclear missle) from Iran to destroy Mecca (Mystery Babylon) “and set there upon her own base” in the land of Shinar, vs 11.

I believe Mystery Babylon is already built. Mecca, fits the description better than a rebuilt Babylon on the original site.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Isa.13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Isaiah 21:1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.

Isaiah 21:13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

Rev 17: 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness (desert): and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 17:4 describes perfectly Mecca of today.

Jeremiah 49: 17 Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.


Ancient Edom stretches from Yemen (Teman) to Northern Saudia Arabia (Dedan)


18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the Lord, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.

19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the Lord, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.

21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea.

Ancient Babylon was by a river , Mecca is much closer to the sea (Red Sea) than original Babylon. What scripture requires Babylon will be built on the original site?


I do not buy into the idea the antichrist has to be a Jew, because the Jews would not accept anyone else. They rejected a Jew the first time. I also do not believe that antichrist will start out proclaiming himself to be god.

John 5: 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus said they would receive another, He didn’t specify a Jew. That is what deception and delusion are all about.

Bible2+ said:

He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre

He could come from Turkey where Satan’s seat is. Rev 2:13


I’m very well aware that many Christians do not accept this Islamic connection. All I can say is they better wake up its coming to your neighborhood.

 

[Bro.T]

Maybe so, maybe not. What is your interpretation?

I don't have an interpretation. The Bible and history go hand and hand, you have to understand what you are reading. I can help you out if you like, but you have to understand that I don't do interpretation. If I don't know or understand something I just say so, or I say I'll get back to you. In the scriptures its written in Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. In this scripture what is the keys words for wisdom and good understanding....Fear and do his commandments. (see Exodus 20th Ch.) This is the problem of the world and why we have many doctrines today. Let me know and we'll deal with those seven heads and Ten Horns.

 

[Short Timer]

Absolutely not.
The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

The Jews can quote all 613 laws you're suppose to obey to be righteous, but following all the laws don't make them Rightous.

The Second Amendment gives you the right to personally own and operate a nuclear weapon?

That's right, control of the Government, and Nuclear weapons are suppose to be in the hands of the People.

But today 82% of people who claim to be Christians elect "Sons of Satan" as their Representative in government, the reason the country is going to hell, both literally and spiritually.

The church should reject any notion God will move backward in his redemptive plan.

That is the real "replacement theology" that should be rejected.

Dismissing the Once for all time, perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross, cancelling the "forever Priesthood" of Jesus and replacing it with the Blood of Bulls and Goats was flat out rejected by the Apostles and therefore should be flat out rejected by the Church.

You remind me of another fellow I discussed scripture with, he had to be right even if it meant what the scriptures plainly said was wrong.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Some of you are so "Churched" you're as blind to God saving the Jews as the Jews were to God saving the Gentiles.

Neither one of you understand the How/Why the plans works as it does.

 

[parousia70]

The Jews can quote all 613 laws you're suppose to obey to be righteous, but following all the laws don't make them Rightous.

Nope. But I fail to see how that addresses my point.

That's right, control of the Government, and Nuclear weapons are suppose to be in the hands of the People.

But today 82% of people who claim to be Christians elect "Sons of Satan" as their Representative in government, the reason the country is going to hell, both literally and spiritually.

This only proves that Control of Government and Nuclear weapons continue to be in the hands of the people... was that what you were trying to prove?

You remind me of another fellow I discussed scripture with, he had to be right even if it meant what the scriptures plainly said was wrong.

That sounds more like you than it sounds like me.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Jesus already did that, but again, you need to be right even at the expense of scriptural testimony that proves otherwise.

Some of you are so "Churched" you're as blind to God saving the Jews as the Jews were to God saving the Gentiles.

God Saves Jews every day, through the only way possible, Faith in the Jewish Messiah via the Jewish Church, the Nazarene sect of Biblical Judaism, which is the sole surviving form of Covenanted Judaism today and evermore.

 

[BABerean2]

and the church doesn't believe Jesus/NT will change back to the OT/God.

The old-school Dispensationalists like Scofield, Larkin, and Chafer taught that the Church was God's eternal heavenly people and the Jews were God's eternal earthly people.

They even claimed the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are different.

Just like the pretrib rapture, none of it is found in God's Word.

There is One Purpose of God and One People of God.

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If I told the true purpose of Dispensational Theology, I would be removed from this forum.

Some people cannot handle the truth.

The best I can do is ask those seeking the truth to read pages 10-26 of the paper below, written by Brethren Historian F.R. Coad in 1966. It reveals the true history of John Darby's Secret Rapture and division of God's Word into that for the Church and that for the Jews. Sometime after Irving died in 1834, Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites and divided the New Testament in an effort to make the doctrine work.


Lacunza ---> Irving ---> Darby ---> Scofield ---> Chafer(Dallas Theological) ---> Lindsay + LaHaye ...


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS

with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.

F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.