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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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BABerean2

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The Comforter/Holy Ghost is a unique gift given only to the church, OT people never had it, nor will the people in the trib,

Based on what you have just stated above, those during the trib cannot become part of the New Covenant, because it requires the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

The veil in the temple was torn in half at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.
God forever ended animal sacrifices and the Old Covenant at that point.
It was replaced by the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah. Matthew 26:28
If was first proclaimed by God at Genesis 3:15.

If people are not saved through the New Covenant foretold in the Old Testament at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and shown to be fulfilled at Hebrews 8:6-13, then please explain to us the system of salvation under which they will be saved.

Are you promoting a Gospel other than the New Blood Covenant of Christ?

.
 
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Short Timer

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I have no idea what you are talking about. The Holy Spirit can only work with a good basic foundation. The Holy Spirit cannot magically teach an ignorant mind. There is no substitute for scholarship.

I heard about a fellow who couldn't read a word in a newspaper but could read every word in the bible,
I don't know if it's true or not, but nothing is impossible with God.

From Adam until Abraham, almost two thousand years had passed without any Bibles, but people such as Enoch/Noah knew enough about God to "walk with God".

Point is, if you have have the desire to know God, he'll make himself known to you, with/without an education.

The American Indians worshiped a "Great Spirit".

But to whom much is given, Moses/law/written word, much (more) is expected.

Where people get into trouble is believing they can understand the scriptures with nothing more than their "Carnal education/mind", which scripture is very clear about that,

"it's impossible".
 
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Short Timer

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Based on what you have just stated above, those during the trib cannot become part of the New Covenant, because it requires the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.


Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Are you saying the Comforter/Holy Ghost was already here in the OT/people, and the day of Pentecost wasn't the first time it came?????


Are you promoting a Gospel other than the New Blood Covenant of Christ?

Looks like you promoting a "salvation" before Jesus came.
 
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Bro.T

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We are not in captivity. We are in the Land. Why don't you acknowledge this?


I showed you twice that the Lord will not bring Israel out of captivity in there home land as a nation, until he return or make his second coming. You continue to speak without any Biblical proof. I am willing to show you more, but I see you want to run away from the Bible. I'm starting to think you don't know who you are?
 
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parousia70

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Are you saying the Comforter/Holy Ghost was already here in the OT/people, and the day of Pentecost wasn't the first time it came?????

Well, For sure, Pentecost was NOT the First time the HS Came:

John 20:21-22

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
 
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Bro.T

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True Israel is Jesus Christ, Mary, Joseph, The 12, the 3000 on Pentecost Day and the rest of the Nazarene sect of whom Paul was a ringleader. They are the Jewish Church who later learned to accept all peoples into their fold as Fellow Citizens of True Israel with them.

The rest were cut off from among the People forever for their unbelief.

I hate to break the news to you, but Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).


Paul say in Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The Lord never gave up on the true Israelites. Lets go take a look at the future in Jeremiah 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith theLord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

What day is great...the second coming of Jesus


8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

All future, this is world don't ask question, nor read their Bible or understand what they are reading.
 
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parousia70

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Paul say in Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
The Lord never gave up on the true Israelites.

Correct, God did not give up on true Israelites. As in former times, the masses of the nation turned wicked and THE TRUE REMNANT remained faithful. The true remnant of the first century included the Nazarenes like Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Peter, the Twelve, John the Baptist, James, and all their faithful jewish followers. This was the faithful Israel, the remnant, the elect. This is the Jewish sect that survived AD 70 and went on to accept the whole world into its NEW covenant contract.

Faithful true Israel is Jesus and the Nazarene Jews of the first century (and all converts to that New Covenant NATION they formed.

God wiped out the rest of Israel at AD 70. Their tribes, their priesthood, their animal sacrifices, their rule, and their lineage went extinct at that time. And so while the Nazarene elect escaped the wrath of God at AD 70 and went on to create the movement known as Christianity, the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and Zealots who opposed the apostles and Jesus perished at the Fall of Jerusalem. The only "Israel" to survive beyond AD 70 was the Nazarene sect, who fled the city when the Romans came and wiped out the whole nation during Passover time.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). This is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

Moses said that all those jews who refused to listen to the Prophet, Jesus, when he came, would be "cut off from among the people" (Acts 3:22-24). THEY are not to be counted as True Israel. In short, you keep calling the disobedient portion of Israel, True Israel. The OBEDIENT portion of Israel is true Israel. True Israel passed on via Moses, NOT via Korah and the rebel jews (1 Cor 10:7-10). True Israel passed on via Elijah, NOT via the jewish apostates of Baal (Romans 11:2-5). Isaiah said only the obedient remnant would be spared, not the rebels (Romans 9:27-29). Likewise True Israel passed on via Jesus, the apostles, John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, and their jewish followers, NOT herod and the pharisees and high priests! Jesus and his followers, the remnant, are the True Israel through which the kingdom was continued. The disobedient, wicked ones among the jews were destroyed at the fall of Jerusalem. Those wicked men were sons of satan in Christ's eyes (John 8:39-47), even though they were genetic sons of Abraham.
 
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Short Timer

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Well, For sure, Pentecost was NOT the First time the HS Came:

John 20:21-22

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus coming was first time God appeared as Jesus, and the first time the HS was ID as being the voice/ghost of Jesus speaking.

Heb 1:1 God, ... spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Ya'll don't seem to understand much about "Rightly dividing the "WORD", Father, Son, HS/HG.
 
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Short Timer

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Correct, God did not give up on true Israelites. As in former times, the masses of the nation turned wicked and THE TRUE REMNANT remained faithful. The true remnant of the first century included the Nazarenes like Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Peter, the Twelve, John the Baptist, James, and all their faithful jewish followers. This was the faithful Israel, the remnant, the elect. This is the Jewish sect that survived AD 70 and went on to accept the whole world into its NEW covenant contract.

Faithful true Israel is Jesus and the Nazarene Jews of the first century (and all converts to that New Covenant NATION they formed.

God wiped out the rest of Israel at AD 70. Their tribes, their priesthood, their animal sacrifices, their rule, and their lineage went extinct at that time.

If every unbelieving Jews is "wiped out",

How can they still be "Elect" even being "Enemies of the Gospel/Church"????

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

How many "Gentiles" do you know that can be enemies of the Gospel/church and still be considered as "elect".

Just what do you think God has reserved one week of Daniels prophecy for anyway, the church????

The trib is between God and Israel for being enemies of the Gospel, the church has no part in that "Chastisement".
 
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iamlamad

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Based on what you have just stated above, those during the trib cannot become part of the New Covenant, because it requires the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

The veil in the temple was torn in half at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.
God forever ended animal sacrifices and the Old Covenant at that point.
It was replaced by the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah. Matthew 26:28
If was first proclaimed by God at Genesis 3:15.

If people are not saved through the New Covenant foretold in the Old Testament at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and shown to be fulfilled at Hebrews 8:6-13, then please explain to us the system of salvation under which they will be saved.

Are you promoting a Gospel other than the New Blood Covenant of Christ?

.
Short timer has it almost right. OF COURSE the Holy Spirit was around in the Old Testament, for the King and the Priest usually had the Holy Spirit "upon" them. The prophets could not have prophecied without the Holy Spirit. What changed when Jesus died and rose again is that man could be "born again" and have the Holy Spirit WITHIN, not to mention get a completely NEW human spirit for the Holy Spirit to dwell in. Those in the upper room were born again before the day of Pentecost when Jesus breathed on them. The difference AFTER pentecost is that ALL WHO ARE BORN AGAIN can have the Holy Spirit upon them, while in the Old Covenant only a very few.

The Holy Spirit will STILL BE HERE after the pretrib rapture. The difference will be, there will be NO ONE here after the rapture who is "filled with the Spirit" or has the Holy Spirit upon them as the anointing. The millions whom He had filled will be "taken out of the way."

You seem to IGNORE the closed door. Please tell us what YOU think God meant by the closed door in the parable of the virgins.
 
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parousia70

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If every unbelieving Jews is "wiped out",

How can they still be "Elect" even being "Enemies of the Gospel/Church"????

They aren't.

The blind disobedient part of Israel was an enemy; but the ELECT and obedient part of Israel was beloved (the apostles, Joseph and Mary, John the baptist, converts like Paul, and all their jewish followers). True Israel passes to the obedient sons (Rom 9:27-29/Rom 11:2-5/1 Cor 10:2-5), and the disobedient sons are cut off from God and the covenant (Acts 3:22-24; cf. Gen 17:14; Lev 18:29; Num 15:30; Ex 12:15). The REMNANT part of Israel was saved (Rom 9:27-29/Rom 11:2-5).

It is crucial to understand that covenant-breaking Hebrews were always removed from among the true people of God (Gen 17:14; Lev 18:29; Num 15:30; Ex 12:15). Moreover, gentile foreigners who converted and faithfully followed the precepts of Moses and the covenant were counted as full members of Israel (Ex 12:48-49). So it was with the gentiles of the apostles' day, who joined themselves to the Jewish church of the Jewish messiah.

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Some Jews were blinded during Christ's incarnational ministry but would later convert in order to obtain "fullness" (Rom 11:11-12,14-23) -- i.e., the fullness of being in the blessing of Abraham and Christ (Gal 3:7-9,14-17,26-29). Paul was one of these such Jews whose initial blindness had been converted (Rom 11:1; 1 Tim 1:12-16), and there were many more at that then-present time which would be converted like him (Rom 11:5; 2 Cor 3:14-16). These first-century Jews were called a "remnant," and, according to Paul, were like the few faithful believers in Israel during the time of apostasy under Isaiah and also Elijah (Rom 11:5; cf. Rom 11:1-5; 9:27-29).

Just what do you think God has reserved one week of Daniels prophecy for anyway, the church????
He hasn't. The 70 weeks ran consecutive. There is no Gap.
 
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parousia70

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Jesus coming was first time God appeared as Jesus, and the first time the HS was ID as being the voice/ghost of Jesus speaking.

Heb 1:1 God, ... spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Yep. this indeed took place way back in the Last Days.

Ya'll don't seem to understand much about "Rightly dividing the "WORD", Father, Son, HS/HG.

I could say the same for you. But I won't. I'm nicer than that.
 
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Meowzltov

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God won't teach you just to make you "Smart", there's too much "pride" in that.
Someone who is mentally deficient can actually "teach" us in a figurative sense in that they can have such a firm grasp on virtue and the basics. But they don't have the knowledge necessary to really be teachers, and that is why we don't employ them as pastors. Again, the HS works with who we are, our basic intelligence and what learning we have invested in. The HS doesn't magically make us brilliant PhD's.
 
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Riberra

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You mean like you ignoring the fact that the church is the only ones going to the Son's wedding in Matt 22,
The Son's Wedding which is mentioned only in Revelation 19 to happen unto Jesus Second Coming (The Parousia) AFTER the Tribulation.

or an explanation for what the "Fulness of the Gentiles" means, and why the blinders stay on Israel until that fulness occurs??????

You have no explanation for any of these.
The fulness of the Gentiles will be completed upon Jesus Second Coming.(The Parousia)

The Jews will accept Jesus as their Messiah ONLY upon Jesus Second Coming.(The Parousia)

The Jews will accept the Antichrist and the false prophet working miracles BEFORE the TRUE coming of Jesus.
 
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Meowzltov

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I heard about a fellow who couldn't read a word in a newspaper but could read every word in the bible,
I don't know if it's true or not, but nothing is impossible with God.
REally???? You don't know whether it is true or not????????? I can't help you.
 
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Meowzltov

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I showed you twice that the Lord will not bring Israel out of captivity in there home land as a nation, until he return or make his second coming. You continue to speak without any Biblical proof. I am willing to show you more, but I see you want to run away from the Bible. I'm starting to think you don't know who you are?
The facts speak for themselves. You are trying to tell me that the sun is blue because the Bible says it's blue* and I'm looking up in the sky and saying, "No it ain't."

* And the bible doesn't really say the sun is blue, that's just your weird interpretation.
 
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iamlamad

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Just because you are living in the Gap should not make you blind to the Gap. Here's how it works:

CYRUS---> 69 WEEKS---->CRUCIFIXION-----GAP---->ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
Just because you are living in the Gap should not make you blind to the Gap.

Brilliant!
 
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Short Timer

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Someone who is mentally deficient can actually "teach" us in a figurative sense in that they can have such a firm grasp on virtue and the basics. But they don't have the knowledge necessary to really be teachers, and that is why we don't employ them as pastors. Again, the HS works with who we are, our basic intelligence and what learning we have invested in. The HS doesn't magically make us brilliant PhD's.


God doesn't call the "qualified'.

God "Qualifies" those called.

Like Jeremiah, to young to know much, but nevertheless called by God.

Jer 1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

You don't need an education if God is telling you what to speak.

I'm not knocking education, it helps, but it's not an absolute necessity.
 
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