Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Meowzltov]

I have now written over 500 article on Bible prophecy and related subjects. Free on my logostelos website.

I'll stick with the scholars at my church, thanks.

 

[Meowzltov]

The world cannot continue as it is for much longer.

What problem can you give as a cataclysmic example?

 

[BABerean2]

If "ANY" reject that HG sent to lead/guide, you reject Jesus

Maybe you think John Nelson Darby was the first person that accepted the Holy Ghost, since you are constantly inferring that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation, has rejected the Holy Ghost...

.

 

[keras]

What problem can you give as a cataclysmic example?

Jesus said there would be 'birth pangs' of the new era.
God's eye is on the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 11:12, we know the enemies that surround Israel will attack one day, Psalms 83 tells us they will, but the will be the Day the Lord takes action, His Day of wrath against the nations by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7
This terrible world changing Day is extensively prophesied to happen, as the first event leading up to the Return of Jesus. We who study scripture should know about it, as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

 

[parousia70]

Jesus said there would be 'birth pangs' of the new era.
God's eye is on the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 11:12, we know the enemies that surround Israel will attack one day, Psalms 83 tells us they will, but the will be the Day the Lord takes action, His Day of wrath against the nations by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7
This terrible world changing Day is extensively prophesied to happen, as the first event leading up to the Return of Jesus. We who study scripture should know about it, as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

How exactly does any of this answer open hearts question? You said it can't carry-on this way "much longer".. Nothing in the above Post gives any indication that anything you mentioned couldn't wait to happen for another thousand years.

What examples can you give the demonstrate that it won't be "much longer"?

 

[Bro.T]

The problem with statements like this is that they assume that THEIR *interpretation* of the Bible is the only one.

I recall showing you two example of scriptures in two different place in the Bible, but I can show you another one if you like. They all talk about the return of the true Israelites who are in captivity to this day, its no problem.

 

[parousia70]

I recall showing you two example of scriptures in two different place in the Bible, but I can show you another one if you like. They all talk about the return of the true Israelites who are in captivity to this day, its no problem.

True Israel is Jesus Christ, Mary, Joseph, The 12, the 3000 on Pentecost Day and the rest of the Nazarene sect of whom Paul was a ringleader. They are the Jewish Church who later learned to accept all peoples into their fold as Fellow Citizens of True Israel with them.

The rest were cut off from among the People forever for their unbelief.

I hate to break the news to you, but Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

 

[Short Timer]

And I agree with you that it is important to be led by the HS. But the HS is no substitute for good hard learning.

Yes, you have to have a "desire" to learn the scriptures and try as best you can, but at the same time without the spirit teaching you left with nothing but the "Carnal mind" which can't understand "Spiritual things".

And if the Spirit is going to teach you, then you have to be willing to "pay for your education", or put that education to work to further the "kingdom of God".

God won't teach you just to make you "Smart", there's too much "pride" in that.

And that is where you find a large number of people, their doctrine is mainly a "Pride" in what they think they know about the scripture rather than being the "Truth".

 

[Short Timer]

It is interesting that you quoted this passage while omitting verse 15.Do you know that these things hard to be understood teached by the apostle Paul in the epistles to the Thess. and Corinthians concerns the Resurrection of those who died /sleep in Christ and the changing into immortality of the believers still alive unto the coming of the Lord(The Parousia).... There is nothing in Paul's teaching about being taken to Heaven after the Resurrection.

In other words you are still ignare about these things....so much that you fabulate and think that these passages about Salvation, Resurrection and a Change into immortality means being taken to heaven before the Tribulation.

You mean like you ignoring the fact that the church is the only ones going to the Son's wedding in Matt 22,

Or a covenant being confirmed with "Somebody" for the week of the trib,

or an explanation for what the "Fulness of the Gentiles" means, and why the blinders stay on Israel until that fulness occurs??????

You have no explanation for any of these.

 

[Short Timer]

2 Peter 3:9b means that God isn't willing that any of the elect perish, but that all the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing that the nonelect perish, for he purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and he gives it only to the elect. For he isn't willing that the nonelect repent.

God is not going to "Honor" Jesus dying for the sin of the "Whole world" that the "whole world"...'MIGHT BE" saved????

You want to explain how something that God predestine not to be just "Might be" anyway???

God doesn't love everyone; he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

You have no idea of what it is to "sweat blood" in order to save people.

How can the "law" hold people accountable for something that they are not responsible for, predestination doesn't give anyone a "Choice"

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

Don't you think it would be a better plan to make known his wrath/power by letting people live with him forever,

The angels who rebelled would be enough to make known his wrath.

Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that wrath wouldn't be necessary, if they believed in him.

-

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Big difference in "Foreknowing" what people will do and predestine them to do it.
If God don't so much as tempt people to sin why would he predestine them to sin,

That just don't add up.

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65;

My Bible tell me Jerusalem didn't believe Jesus because they closed their eyes/ears, and if it hadn't been to that Jesus would have healed them.


Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

According to your doctrine, Jesus lied.

He should have placed the blame where it belonged, on God and predestination.

In 2 Timothy 2:15b, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:

I don't guess "Dividing the word" into "Father"....."Son"...."Holy Spirit/Ghost" has anything to do with understanding the scriptures????

Keep looking for the AC, I think you're going to see him before Jesus.

 

[Short Timer]

There are millions of believers in the US today (and more in other nations) that BYPASS Acts 1 and 2, and attempt to follow Jesus WITHOUT the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. Oh, certainly they have the Holy Spirit within, but the have REFUSED to have the Holy Spirit UPON, which is the anointing. Perhaps 80% of the Holy Spirit's work as the teacher is done with the few that believe Acts 1 and become spirit filled.

Don't misunderstand: there are millions that THINK they are spirit filled, but don't even know what it really means. They have BYPASSED Acts 1 and two.

I've always had a problem with "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" as many interpret it, the spirit is the only thing that can give a person the "Born again" experience,

after that we can "Turn it loose" or "quench the spirit", which everyone does to some degree.

Jesus told the disciple the reason they couldn't heal the boy was because they didn't pray/fast as he did,

If we could "walk the walk" Jesus walked we could have much more spiritual power than what we've got,
and the falling away is weakening the church even more, which is why the world is going to hell today.

Enticing words might get people to join your organization but it won't get them into the "Church", only the spirit can do that.

People like Olsten promising "Peace"..Security"..."Prosperity" does more to lure people away from the "Church" than into it, that's all worldly gains not heavenly.

You can usually get an idea of what a church preaches by the size of the Congregation, "FEW" people like to be constantly reminded they're still sinners, still sinning, but if you will massage egos just a little, you'll have "MANY" and an overflowing crowd.

But the Spirit won't be there.

 

[iamlamad]

I've always had a problem with "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" as many interpret it, the spirit is the only thing that can give a person the "Born again" experience,

after that we can "Turn it loose" or "quench the spirit", which everyone does to some degree.

Jesus told the disciple the reason they couldn't heal the boy was because they didn't pray/fast as he did,

If we could "walk the walk" Jesus walked we could have much more spiritual power than what we've got,
and the falling away is weakening the church even more, which is why the world is going to hell today.

Enticing words might get people to join your organization but it won't get them into the "Church", only the spirit can do that.

People like Olsten promising "Peace"..Security"..."Prosperity" does more to lure people away from the "Church" than into it, that's all worldly gains not heavenly.

You can usually get an idea of what a church preaches by the size of the Congregation, "FEW" people like to be constantly reminded they're still sinners, still sinning, but if you will massage egos just a little, you'll have "MANY" and an overflowing crowd.

But the Spirit won't be there.

Then in truth, you have had a problem with HIM: the Holy Spirit. This should not be!


You certainly won't learn much by listening to that young preacher with the largest congregation. We need MEAT, not fluff! You could have by listening to his dad though. If you would read closely in the book of Acts you will see that God made a difference between the Spirit within and the Spirit "on" or "upon." When people received this mighty baptism with the Spirit, it was written that the Spirit came "upon" them. In Acts 1 Luke told us the PURPOSE of this baptism with the Holy Spirit was for POWER to witness. On the other hand, the Spirit within comes to SEAL us, to be our guarantee of eternal life with Him, and to be our comforter. So we have to separate experiences, both by the Holy Spirit, but will different purposes. Most choose the SKIP the Holy Spirit upon, even when Jesus COMMANDED it.

 

[patrick jane]

The rapture is real, it is written.

 

[Meowzltov]

Jesus said there would be 'birth pangs' of the new era.
God's eye is on the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 11:12, we know the enemies that surround Israel will attack one day, Psalms 83 tells us they will, but the will be the Day the Lord takes action, His Day of wrath against the nations by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7
This terrible world changing Day is extensively prophesied to happen, as the first event leading up to the Return of Jesus. We who study scripture should know about it, as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

This is not an example of something cataclysmic happening in our time. Want to try again?

 

[Meowzltov]

I recall showing you two example of scriptures in two different place in the Bible, but I can show you another one if you like. They all talk about the return of the true Israelites who are in captivity to this day, its no problem.

We are not in captivity. We are in the Land. Why don't you acknowledge this?

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, you have to have a "desire" to learn the scriptures and try as best you can, but at the same time without the spirit teaching you left with nothing but the "Carnal mind" which can't understand "Spiritual things".

I have no idea what you are talking about. The Holy Spirit can only work with a good basic foundation. The Holy Spirit cannot magically teach an ignorant mind. There is no substitute for scholarship.

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 3988:

God won't teach you just to make you "Smart", there's too much "pride" in that.

Great point.

For:

1 Corinthians 8:1 . . . we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

*******

Short Timer said in post 3990:

God is not going to "Honor" Jesus dying for the sin of the "Whole world" that the "whole world"...'MIGHT BE" saved????

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Regarding Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world: His suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone because he isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

Short Timer said in post 3990:

God is not going to "Honor" Jesus dying for the sin of the "Whole world" that the "whole world"...'MIGHT BE" saved????

While Jesus' divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but of only the elect. For Jesus' sheep whom he died to save (John 10:11,14,15) are the elect (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in him (John 10:27), and who will believe in him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to the nonelect, who can't ever believe in him (John 8:42-47), because they aren't his sheep (John 10:26).

Short Timer said in post 3990:

God is not going to "Honor" Jesus dying for the sin of the "Whole world" that the "whole world"...'MIGHT BE" saved????

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:17a means that God didn't send Jesus into the world to condemn the world before Jesus' 2nd coming, when Jesus will condemn the world (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Luke 12:49).

Also, John 3:17b doesn't require that God sent Jesus into the world to save everyone in the world, just as saying that a person has come to save Broadway wouldn't require that that person has come to save every show on Broadway.

In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include believers, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during his preaching before his arrest.

Short Timer said in post 3990:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

John 3:16 doesn't mean that God loves everyone in the world, for he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22).

What John 3:16 says doesn't require that God loves everyone in the world, just as, for example, saying that a person loves TV doesn't require that that person loves every show on TV. Similarly, God being love (1 John 4:8,16) doesn't mean that he loves everyone (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13), just as God being a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) doesn't mean he is consuming everyone in fire (Revelation 14:10-11). Also, God chastens those he loves during their lifetime (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6), but not everyone receives chastening from God during their lifetime (Hebrews 12:7-8). Therefore, God doesn't love everyone.

Short Timer said in post 3990:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

John 3:16 means that anyone who believes in Jesus gets saved. It doesn't mean that everyone can believe in Jesus. For other verses show that some people (the nonelect) can't believe in him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, John 3:16 doesn't mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people won't be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). And John 3:16 doesn't mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, he intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

Short Timer said in post 3990:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

Regarding "should not perish", in the original Greek the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as "may not perish". Other, related verses show that believers ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Short Timer said in post 3990:

You have no idea of what it is to "sweat blood" in order to save people.

Indeed not.

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

But note that this doesn't require that Jesus came to save everyone.

Short Timer said in post 3990:

How can the "law" hold people accountable for something that they are not responsible for, predestination doesn't give anyone a "Choice"

Predestination doesn't give everyone the choice of ultimate salvation, but it doesn't take away anyone's free will. For example, God never makes anyone sin; he never even tempts anyone to sin. Everyone sins by their own choice:

James 1:13 ¶Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So everyone will still be held accountable by Jesus for their sinful actions, even Christians:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord . . .

Later, nonelect people will be judged by their works at the great white throne judgment:

Revelation 20:11 ¶And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Short Timer said in post 3990:

The angels who rebelled would be enough to make known his wrath.

Not according to Paul:

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Short Timer said in post 3990:

My Bible tell me Jerusalem didn't believe Jesus because they closed their eyes/ears, and if it hadn't been to that Jesus would have healed them.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:37b and Luke 13:34b refer back to God's desire for Jerusalem during Old Testament times (e.g. Jeremiah 17:24-26). So Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 are addressing the city of Jerusalem in general, not the specific, nonelect Jews alive there at the time of Jesus' first coming, who, as nonelect people, could never believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47), because God wanted it that way (John 12:37-41). Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35b refer to the future salvation of the unbelieving, elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Short Timer said in post 3990:

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

According to your doctrine, Jesus lied.

He should have placed the blame where it belonged, on God and predestination.

Note that it's not so much either/or, but can be both/and. For compare:

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

*******

Short Timer said in post 3991:

I've always had a problem with "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" as many interpret it, the spirit is the only thing that can give a person the "Born again" experience,

Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

Short Timer said in post 3991:

I've always had a problem with "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" as many interpret it, the spirit is the only thing that can give a person the "Born again" experience,

Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Believers have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to understand and believe the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

Short Timer said in post 3991:

You can usually get an idea of what a church preaches by the size of the Congregation, "FEW" people like to be constantly reminded they're still sinners, still sinning, but if you will massage egos just a little, you'll have "MANY" and an overflowing crowd.

Interesting point.

It brought to mind:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[Bible2+]

patrick jane said in post 3993:

The rapture is real, it is written.

That's right.

For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

 

[Short Timer]

Then in truth, you have had a problem with HIM: the Holy Spirit. This should not be!

The HG is sent to help people proclaim the "Good News", however unlike Jesus the spirit is given to people "By Measure",
"As your faith is, so be it unto you", we can, and do, quench the spirit, so the degree to which the spirit will be able to work through a person will depend on the degree a person is willing to "Turn it loose or bind it up".

The Comforter/Holy Ghost is a unique gift given only to the church, OT people never had it, nor will the people in the trib,
Israel rejected God speaking directly to them at Mt Sinai and again through Jesus, preferring God to speak through "Prophets", which is why they are blinded until the "Fulness of the Church/Gentiles" and Jesus/HG/Church are Rapture and the "Two "prophets", Moses/Elijah returns, with their "Signs and wonders".

You certainly won't learn much by listening to that young preacher with the largest congregation. We need MEAT, not fluff! You could have by listening to his dad though. If you would read closely in the book of Acts you will see that God made a difference between the Spirit within and the Spirit "on" or "upon."

The spirit is sent to "Glorify" the name "Jesus", not some man, I didn't have to wait until after Jim/Tammy Baker, Robert Schuller went down the tube to know where they were headed, nor do I have to vote for a person before I know what is inside of them,

Spirit bears witness to spirit, out of the heart the mouth speaks, few seem to know that.

The degree of falling away is "Polled" every time there is an "election", look at what people have "Voted" to represent them and their Government,
Some of the best disciples Satan has ever "employed".

When people received this mighty baptism with the Spirit, it was written that the Spirit came "upon" them. In Acts 1 Luke told us the PURPOSE of this baptism with the Holy Spirit was for POWER to witness.

God is no respecter of person, spiritual power is in direct inverse proportion to the degree the "Body of sin" is crucified,
When we reach the "end of our rope" or what "WE" think we can do is when the spirit can/does work the strongest.

And to get the name "Jesus"..glorified, that spirit will work with "Whoever".."Whenever" it will be allowed to work.

On the other hand, the Spirit within comes to SEAL us, to be our guarantee of eternal life with Him, and to be our comforter. So we have to separate experiences, both by the Holy Spirit, but will different purposes. Most choose the SKIP the Holy Spirit upon, even when Jesus COMMANDED it.

That "lord lord" group claiming to casting out devils having never been saved is growing faster than the church, but satan doesn't cast out satan, just look at what people elect to represent them.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

In a "Spiritual war" you have to be able to recognize your enemy, even when he is dressed up as an "Angel of light".

And it doesn't make any difference if it's the devil or another person, you can "discern" who is speaking by the "spirit" and who is not.

 

[Short Timer]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

While Jesus' divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but of only the elect.

he is the propitiation sins, and not for ours only, (those saved) but also, the sins of the whole world,

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Would you like to explain "WHY" people in the trib are given a "Choice" to take the mark/worship the Image or have their "old body of sin" killed,

and those in the church are not given a "Choice"????

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Does anyone during this age of Grace (church) have the option to "kill/not kill" (crucify) their "body of sin"??????

Or does the plan of salvation change after the rapture?????

Ignorance of the feast is where most confusion originates, Jesus as the "Passover lamb" didn't die for the sins of the whole world, but only to protect the "Firstborn" from the death angel, in this case pre trib rapture of the church,

Jesus as the "Scapegoat" died for the sins of the world, but Atonement is not made until that "Goat for the people" is also sacrificed along with the Scapegoat, that "Goat for the people" is the "BODY" of sin.

Under the "law" all "Bodies of sin" (Flesh) have to die, the wages of sin is "death",

But for the church being under Grace from the law, it's only a "Spiritual death" of the flesh/body of sin, a "living sacrifice", to continues and grow the Church, and satan can't "prevail" against that effort.

Back under the law during the trib, the flesh/body of sin will have to "literally die", just as Jesus had to "literally die".
Jesus won't be trying to build a church during that time and there won't be any HG to help,

and that's why the devil can prevail against any who might try.

God's wrath is directed at "Flesh", not souls, a soul can still be saved even with their "body" turned over to satan for its destruction.

You can't understand the scriptures unless you understand the "Plan of salvation".

I'd suggest you learn how the feasts correspond to the scriptures.