True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

And you know why I don't believe you?

#1. You have failed to provide explanations for verses that refute your view on Justification.

#2. You are unable to make a real world example out of your belief in relation to morality.

#3. You set out to attack me instead of sticking with making the Bible as your source of debate.

#4. You have not answered (even by way of Private Message) any of the questions in regards to how your belief has actually worked personally in your life for you. For surely if you are on the side of truth, then "good fruit" and not "bad fruit" would be the result.

#5. You have failed to explain how your belief is not a way of God condoning sin on some level.


Side Note:

Oh, and you are unreasonable in regards to people's schedules. I do have a job outside of this forum and I honestly cannot always reply. You may see something nefarious in that as if I had some kind ulterior motive, but that would simply be "you" in seeing something that is not there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition, you said before that you are to bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. Okay. How is that truth working out for you in your life? Have you conquered grevious sin in your life whereby you are able to help others to do so? That is what it means to help to bear one another's burdens in Christ (See Galatians 6:1 for the context of verse 2). For you cannot help someone overcome sin unless you have done so yourself. For a person cannot help an alcoholic overcome alcoholism if they are an alcoholic themselves. A person cannot help someone overcome hate unless they have done so themselves.

This truth even applies to me. For I am not above the Word of God.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Furthermore, you said before that Ezekiel 36:26-27 is written in regards to the New Covenant saint. Well, this is actually good news for you. For if you believe that then you have to believe that God transforms a person's heart and spirit and then places His Spirit within a person so as to CAUSE them to keep His laws and statues.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 is talking about the born again experience and what that kind of life would actually look like. See 1 John 2:3-5.


....

 

[stuart lawrence]

And you know why I don't believe you?

#1. You have failed to provide explanations for verses that refute your view on Justification.

#2. You are unable to make a real world example out of your belief in relation to morality.

#3. You set out to attack me instead of sticking with making the Bible as your source of debate.

#4. You have not answered (even by way of Private Message) any of the questions in regards to how your belief has actually worked personally in your life for you. For surely if you are on the side of truth, then "good fruit" and not "bad fruit" would be the result.

#5. You have failed to explain how your belief is not a way of God condoning sin on some level.


Side Note:

Oh, and you are unreasonable in regards to people's schedules. I do have a job outside of this forum and I honestly cannot always reply. You may see something nefarious in that as if I had some kind ulterior motive, but that would simply be "you" in seeing something that is not there.

1) There are no verses that refute my view of justification. But as you do not understand justification/sanctification you take the view you do
2) Clearly untrue. I many times asked you to read a chapter of a book I wrote which explained it. You consistently refused to do so.
3) I attack your beliefs, as Jesus attacked the Pharisees
4) You might want to proclaim to the world how well you believe you follow a certain standard, I do not. In essence you were really saying. ''Look at me, I perform according to the acceptable standard, you must attain to where I am''. That is seeking to boast before men, I will have no part in it.
5)Clearly untrue. But once again. Though given ample opportunity to do so, you cannot explain the justification/sanctification process of the Christian. To attack something you don't understand is ignorance I am afraid

 

[stuart lawrence]

In addition, you said before that you are to bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. Okay. How is that truth working out for you in your life? Have you conquered grevious sin in your life whereby you are able to help others to do so? That is what it means to help to bear one another's burdens in Christ (See Galatians 6:1 for the context of verse 2). For you cannot help someone overcome sin unless you have done so yourself. For a person cannot help an alcoholic overcome alcoholism if they are an alcoholic themselves. A person cannot help someone overcome hate unless they have done so themselves.

This truth even applies to me. For I am not above the Word of God.


....

Once again, I am not on this website to boast of myself. I am here to debate Christian doctrine. I am not here to proclaim I have reached the acceptable standard and everyone else must attain to where I am.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Furthermore, you said before that Ezekiel 36:26-27 is written in regards to the New Covenant saint. Well, this is actually good news for you. For if you believe that then you have to believe that God transforms a person's heart and spirit and then places His Spirit within a person so as to CAUSE them to keep His laws and statues.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 is talking about the born again experience and what that kind of life would actually look like. See 1 John 2:3-5.


....

I told you once, the difference between us is not as to how a Christian should live their life, but the difference is following the truth of the Gospel message. You clearly do not understand the message given to Paul to preach for you cannot explain it when asked to do so.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Furthermore, you said before that Ezekiel 36:26-27 is written in regards to the New Covenant saint. Well, this is actually good news for you. For if you believe that then you have to believe that God transforms a person's heart and spirit and then places His Spirit within a person so as to CAUSE them to keep His laws and statues.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 is talking about the born again experience and what that kind of life would actually look like. See 1 John 2:3-5.


....

You see Jason, your message rips out the heart of the Gospel, and I will tell you why. Jesus said to the Pharisees:

Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God Luke 11:42

You need to start understanding what the literal word is saying, not just quote it!
The Pharisees were so in earnest the letter be obeyed(obedience to God on an incredibly high level under a law of righteousness) that they neglected what mattered most, the love of God. Your message does not come across as a loving message, nor can it. There is no emotion in it, it is cold. Love is the strongest emotion of all, and the underlying message of the Gospel is the love, mercy and compassion of God. That is void from your Gospel message
You see, if it is all about how Good you can be, you do not need the love, mercy and compassion of God do you? It is then all about what you have achieved, you would not then rely as King David did on God's unfailing love for you. You may say it is the work Christ does in you. But your underlying message is of the standard an individual must achieve or they are in danger of the fires of hell. So your message centres on what the individual must achieve. You just don't word it as such!
Paul said. ''The letter kills but the spirit gives life. You stress the letter, not the love, mercy and compassion of God. There is no love in a message of perform perfect or you are in danger of the fires of hell. Good grief a parent wouldn't say that to a child they loved, does God live his children less than a parent can love theirs?
The Pharisees simply quoted the letter of ''Thou shalt not'' that is what you do also. The only people your message rests well with are those who have pride in their hearts, and like you proclaim:
I have achieved, look at where I am. You must attain to the place I am at''
That is not a loving message, but one of pride and boasting!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see this thread as losing it's focus of what it was originally talking about. Time to move on. There are things God is calling me to do elswhere. I made my case with God's Word on this matter. If folks choose not to accept it, then that is up to them.

In any event, may God's love, grace, and peace be unto you all.



....

 

[stuart lawrence]

I see this thread as losing it's focus of what it was originally talking about. Time to move on. There are things God is calling me to do elswhere. I made my case with God's Word on this matter. If folks choose not to accept it, then that is up to them.

In any event, may God's love, grace, and peace be unto you all.



....

Goodbye Jason
I hope the day comes when you open your heart to the amazing grace Paul preached
God bless

 

[JLB777]

Goodbye Jason
I hope the day comes when you open your heart to the amazing grace Paul preached
God bless

What do you suppose The grace that Paul preached is?

It seems from your post's that Grace is something that somehow excuses us from obeying God, and turning from evil.

Please explain to us what your definition of Grace is?


JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

What do you suppose The grace that Paul preached is?

It seems from your post's that Grace is something that somehow excuses us from obeying God, and turning from evil.

Please explain to us what your definition of Grace is?


JLB

It would take a long time to into it in depth. If you would really like the answer, there is a thread called grace in the AOG/pentecostal forum. You can read fully there what grace is to me. There is a chapter on rom6:14

Sin shall not be you master for you are not under law but under grace.
I would suggest the best thing would be to read it, then bring any concerns you may have to this thread and I will respond to them
If you have read through this thread Jason chose not to respond when asked to give his opinions as to what the sanctification/justification process is in the converts life, and he also chose not to respond when asked to give his personal thoughts as to what it means to be born again, and the law being placed within you

Rom6:14 is the gospel message of victory over sin, that is opposed to jasons view of a law of righteousness being in place

 

[stuart lawrence]

What do you suppose The grace that Paul preached is?

It seems from your post's that Grace is something that somehow excuses us from obeying God, and turning from evil.

Please explain to us what your definition of Grace is?


JLB

Short answer. Faith in Jesus is the only righteousness/justification the christian can ever have before God. They have no righteousness/justification/rightstanding before God of works of the law/observing the law(which means striving to defeat sin in their life) in that knowledge is victory over sin/sin shall not be their master
That is Paul's core gospel message of grace

 

[expos4ever]

As long as you hold your view and Jason holds his view the gulf is immense.
Unless in reality you do not hold the view you state you do

I believe Christ is the end of the whole Law of Moses "for righteousness", but I also accept what Paul says in Romans 2 - that eternal life is awarded based on how we actually have lived. Does this strike you as internally inconsistent. If so, we can talk about it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I believe Christ is the end of the whole Law of Moses "for righteousness", but I also accept what Paul says in Romans 2 - that eternal life is awarded based on how we actually have lived. Does this strike you as internally inconsistent. If so, we can talk about it.

Firstly, if Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness, you can have no righteousness/justification/rightstandin before God of observing the law/works of the law. That means you can have no justification/righteousness before God of striving to defeat the sin in your life.
It means Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future. That is what it means if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness
In view of that. Do you still believe Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness?

 

[JLB777]

It would take a long time to into it in depth. If you would really like the answer, there is a thread called grace in the AOG/pentecostal forum. You can read fully there what grace is to me. There is a chapter on rom6:14

Sin shall not be you master for you are not under law but under grace.
I would suggest the best thing would be to read it, then bring any concerns you may have to this thread and I will respond to them
If you have read through this thread Jason chose not to respond when asked to give his opinions as to what the sanctification/justification process is in the converts life, and he also chose not to respond when asked to give his personal thoughts as to what it means to be born again, and the law being placed within you

Rom6:14 is the gospel message of victory over sin, that is opposed to jasons view of a law of righteousness being in place

I didn't ask you for another persons opinion.

It's likely that you don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

Grace is the power of God, given to a person that enables them to do what they can not do without it.

IOW Grace is the Holy Spirit. M

The Spirit of Grace.

You just disqualified yourself as being equipped to teach about the very things you have been discussing.

Its by Grace we are saved and by Grace we are made to stand.... That's God's part.

Our part is to obey, for that is what believe comes down to.


May God bless you and keep you.


JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

I didn't ask you for another persons opinion.

It's likely that you don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

Grace is the power of God, given to a person that enables them to do what they can not do without it.

IOW Grace is the Holy Spirit. M

The Spirit of Grace.

You just disqualified yourself as being equipped to teach about the very things you have been discussing.

Its by Grace we are saved and by Grace we are made to stand.... That's God's part.

Our part is to obey, for that is what believe comes down to.


May God bless you and keep you.


JLB

It isn't another persons opinion, I wrote the book. I asked two men in the us- both of whom have degrees in religion to read it and tell me if they thought it was faithful to scripture. They both agreed it was and hoped it would be published
Most who go to church do not understand the grace Paul preached, so I am never suprised at the hostility I receive concerning grace

 

[expos4ever]

Firstly, if Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness, you can have no righteousness/justification/rightstandin before God of observing the law/works of the law. That means you can have no justification/righteousness before God of striving to defeat the sin in your life.
It means Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future. That is what it means if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness
In view of that. Do you still believe Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness?

Well, I do not agree with your reasoning, so I cannot answer this question. To make this as painless on all as possible, I will have to think a bit about how to explain my position to you and the others. I will get back to you.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I do not agree with your reasoning, so I cannot answer this question. To make this as painless on all as possible, I will have to think a bit about how to explain my position to you and the others. I will get back to you.

If you don't agree with what I stated i would sincerely suggest you further contemplate on it. If Christ did not die for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future, you MUST have a rightstandibg before God of observing the law. That is without question, for sin is transgression of the law. Paul iscadamant, the christian only has a rightwousness/justification before God of faith in Christ, not one of observing the law. Observing the law is not committing sin.
Only I you are under a law of righteousness before God can Christ not have died for all your sins at Calvary. I would urge you to reconsider this, it is correct I assure you

 

[JLB777]

It isn't another persons opinion, I wrote the book. I asked two men in the us- both of whom have degrees in religion to read it and tell me if they thought it was faithful to scripture. They both agreed it was and hoped it would be published
Most who go to church do not understand the grace Paul preached, so I am never suprised at the hostility I receive concerning grace

No hostility. Just disappointed that you yourself can't answer a simply question, of which you have argued extensively about.

It would seem that you present yourself as "knowing" all about "this grace" that Paul taught, as if it were a different grace that what Jesus or Peter or John or James taught.

Jesus is full of both Grace and Truth.

We never compromise Truth in favor of Grace.

Grace is the power of God to walk in Truth.


JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus told his disciples there was much more he wanted to tell then but until the holy spirit cane on them they could not yet bear such knowledge(john 16)
Therefore, to fully understand the message of grace you gave to read beyond the gospels. But if you understand about this subject, and I do not understand it. Please tell me why sinful passions are aroused in us by the law when we live under it(rom7:5)