New thought about Pascal's Wager

[ToddNotTodd]

Among some of the scholars and historians, this is a heated debate. Jesus only implies that he is divine in the gospel of John and John was written the last of the four gospels and about 60-70 years after Jesus died. And virtually all of these scholars and historians readily admit, all the gospels were actually penned by anonymous authors. Also, John is the one gospel, that most scholars and historians call into question as having the least credibility, because of it's writing style being completely different and that fact that none of the other three gospels, ever mentions anything about Jesus being God and how could they miss such a crucial point.

Furthermore, there is clear evidence that John had verses added to it, hundreds of years later and the story of adulteress, is one example of a very late addition, that was no where to be found in the oldest available copies.

The Gospel of John was also seen as heretical by the early church.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

At the time, Zeus and the other Greek Gods were believed to exist and were worshiped, so these legends were believed to be true, and they were written as a factual account of Gods, people, events, and places. For instance, it was believed by many that Zeus was responsible for lightning.

Ok so now what? Do you want to compare that with Christianity? Is so make your list for every point to validate said religion or people. I will do the same with Christianity. Lets see who has more.

No you haven't. You have made the assertion. Now provide the proof.

you are saying proof, i am saying evidence. if we had proof we wouldn't be on this forum having this discussion now.

Christianity - Jesus
Buggy Man - not sure, do you have any evidence to validate this being? I don't.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Ok so now what? Do you want to compare that with Christianity? Is so make your list for every point to validate said religion or people. I will do the same with Christianity. Lets see who has more.

It doesn't matter who has more. That's not how evidence works...

You might look up "black swans"...

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Who is claiming false faith will get them into heaven?

From what I understand the Pascals wager in a nutshell is it is better to believe in God no matter if you don't, because if he is there, then you'll gain something by just claiming you believe in him. If he isn't then you loose nothing by the fabrication. Is this the truth of his wager or did I misread it?

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

It doesn't matter who has more. That's not how evidence works...

You might look up "black swans"...

Um but it can.

For example if you have only evidence of equal merit then who ever has more is more valid / probable.

But fine,

We can easily say who has the most compelling evidence.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

From what I understand the Pascals wager in a nutshell is it is better to believe in God no matter if you don't, because if he is there, then you'll gain something by just claiming you believe in him. If he isn't then you loose nothing by the fabrication. Is this the truth of his wager or did I misread it?

No that is correct. But the thing people fail to realize is by applying PW one could potentially in the future develop true belief due to reading the Bible,going to church, praying, fellowshipping, etc. Which was indirectly a result of PW.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

From what I understand the Pascals wager in a nutshell is it is better to believe in God no matter if you don't, because if he is there, then you'll gain something by just claiming you believe in him. If he isn't then you loose nothing by the fabrication. Is this the truth of his wager or did I misread it?

It's more along the lines of you should actually believe instead of just claiming to believe.

The problem lies in the fact that the wager is a false dichotomy. There are more potential gods than what Pascal accounted for. This means that you could easily believe in the "wrong" god. So by itself the wager is useless.

 

[bhsmte]

No that is correct. But the thing people fail to realize is by applying PW one could potentially in the future develop true belief due to reading the Bible,going to church, praying, fellowshipping, etc. Which was indirectly a result of PW.

What your are saying then, is Pascal's wager is like belief on training wheels. Play along for a while and you never know?

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

It's more along the lines of you should actually believe instead of just claiming to believe.

The problem lies in the fact that the wager is a false dichotomy. There are more potential gods than what Pascal accounted for. This means that you could easily believe in the "wrong" god. So by itself the wager is useless.

That was not the purpose of PW. So this assertion does nothing to the validity of PW.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Um but it can.

For example if you have only evidence of equal merit then who ever has more is more valid / probable.

Oh my...

Did you look up black swans? You really should. Seriously, you're not making yourself look good here...

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

What your are saying then, is Pascal's wager is like belief on training wheels. Play along for a while and you never know?

What I am saying is what I said. PW can LEAD to true belief. Nothing more, nothing less.

However you want to phrase that is up to you.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

Oh my...

Did you look up black swans? You really should. Seriously, you're not making yourself look good here...

How about you refute the having only evidence of equal merit in relation to seeing who has more and validity.

Or simply examining the evidence on a whole and seeing which evidence is more compelling.

 

[bhsmte]

What I am saying is what I said. PW can LEAD to true belief. Nothing more, nothing less.

However you want to phrase that is up to you.

IMO, true belief happens with varying factors in each person's personal psyche and I don't think a Pascal's wager, has anything to do with it.

If I presented another religion to you that believed in a different God and said, go along and believe in this if you can, because if you don't, you will be doomed and what do you have to lose? I highly doubt, that would work on you.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

That was not the purpose of PW.

Wrong again there chief...

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

IMO, true belief happens with varying factors in each person's personal psyche and I don't think a Pascal's wager, has anything to do with it.

If I presented another religion to you that believed in a different God and said, go along and believe in this if you can, because if you don't, you will be doomed and what do you have to lose? I highly doubt, that would work on you.

That is your opinion. Does nothing to invalidate or refute what I said.

Ovcourse that wouldn't work on me because the religion you picked would have little to no merit or evidence leading me to even believe it was half way credible, plausible, or logical to even compel me to use it in a PW to begin with.

Now if I were mentally handicap and didn't account for validity and probability then it might possibly work.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

How about you refute the having only evidence of equal merit in relation to seeing who has more and validity.

Or simply examining the evidence on a whole and seeing which evidence is more compelling.

So you're ok with admitting that the number of pieces of evidence has no bearing on the probability of a proposition being true?

Because that would be great progress.

 

[bhsmte]

That is your opinion. Does nothing to invalidate or refute what I said.

Ovcourse that wouldn't work on me because the religion you picked would have little to no merit or evidence leading me to even believe it was half way credible, plausible, or logical.

And some people don't believe your religion has any merit or evidence and Pascal's wager is not going to have any impact, on folks who truly don't believe something.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

No that is correct. But the thing people fail to realize is by applying PW one could potentially in the future develop true belief due to reading the Bible,going to church, praying, fellowshipping, etc. Which was indirectly a result of PW.

We gain people that way, in the first place, but the thrust needs to be there for it to take. Poing it the way PW has it is tantamount to encouraging the person to eat Saltine crackers in order to artificially create thurst that can be satiated by anything available.

I would rather be around 30 hard core Atheists than one Christian who was manipulated into being one, since the Atheists would stand on their convictions and the fraudulent Christian would have nothing to stand on because his beliefs wouldn't be grounded in anything other than the here and now.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

So you're ok with admitting that the number of pieces of evidence has no bearing on the probability of a proposition being true?

Because that would be great progress.

Depends on the circumstances. It is certainly possible. Just like it is certainly possible the number of pieces of evidence does have a bearing on probability. Evidence can be equal and not equal.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

We gain people that way, in the first place, but the thrust needs to be there for it to take. Poing it the way PW has it is tantamount to encouraging the person to eat Saltine crackers in order to artificially create thurst that can be satiated by anything available.

I would rather be around 30 hard core Atheists than one Christian who was manipulated into being one, since the Atheists would stand on their convictions and the fraudulent Christian would have nothing to stand on because his beliefs wouldn't be grounded in anything other than the here and now.

Thats all nice and dandy but that doesn't really do anything to PW and who is screwed if there is a God or not.