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How Unequal Can America Get Before We Snap?

Ken-1122

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The fox hole is your stance that is unbending in the face of reality. This shows strong belief and although this is a mind that can not come to compromise it will fight in the face of facts. 1 man can not spend vast wealth unless he gives it away. Because of acquiring said wealth or raised up in it to inherit it, it will not be given away and stored in an off shore account to avoid taxation. There has to be a ceiling of amassed wealth or we get what we got today. This debate. That chart above and the uncompromising mind of Ken. Does this make Ken a bad person, certainly not , thus in the fox hole "if" I were there too , I have without a shadow of a doubt you got my back.

First of all, if I think you are wrong, I don't have your back.
And if your idea of being in a "foxhole" is to be too stubborn to admit when you are wrong, I can assure you I am not, nor have I ever been in your "foxhole". I just disagree with what some of the people on this forum say, and I am expressing why.

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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The investor. Those who use wealth to attract more wealth. Right now we have .1% of the population owning more than the bottom 90% of Americans. It has nothing to do with earning or creating wealth.
I disagree! It has everything to do with earning/creating wealth. If you disagree, how do you think they get all that money then? Do you think they are stealing from the poor?

Ken
 
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amanuensis63

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I'm confused.

So, if Joe has a character flaw somewhere so he shouldn't have a business?

Oh Joe should be in business, but we as consumers shouldn't frequent his business. Joe should learn that as a business person he has certain things he should do to be a part of the HUMAN RACE.

Businesses like Joe's are the movers and shakers of this country.

And that's not a problem? Sociopaths who will do whatever it takes no matter the cost to other people?

I think that's the problem. I think that's EXACTLY the problem.

These small to medium sizes businesses are the ones we as a country need to concentrate on to flourish,

The small businessman isn't really the problem. Unless said small businessman says he won't support a living wage for his workers because it "costs too much" then he needs to reevaluate how he does business and why.

Most of the problem resides in how we as a nation give wealth a pass. This isn't the small business owner. The small business owner isn't the 1% in most of the cases.

The examples you gave, say, like Rockefeller, may have started as a small business but the psychopathy necessary to undertake the kind of ruthless business practices used to turn Standard Oil into a hallmark of monopolistic excess is something we should try to show OPPROBRIUM for, rather than rewarding.

and the chances of you finding this HUGE gaps in salaries - which seems to be the only thing people are objecting too - isn't really present.

Again, please keep up. Indeed it is endemic to corporations that the top usually makes far in excess of the average worker. CEO's now make on average 300X the amount of the average worker at their businesses.

This isn't the small businessman. The small businessman ISN'T the 1%. And doesn't really factor into the income inequality.

The small to medium companies are getting crushed by piled on regulations

Most of those regulations were put on to protect YOU the citizen of the US and the worker and the consumer. PLease don't tell me all the problem is in regulation.

You know the reason why jobs get shifted overseas? Its because the people over there are willing to live horrific lives you and I would NEVER accept. There are often no worker safety regulations, no environmental regulations.

This is why the CEO's of the corporations shifting jobs to cheap labor markets never move to those hellholes themselves! They stay in the US...where regulations and rules have made the US a very nice and livable place.

and other stuff that government is handing down, because its only the big guys that are able to afford it. I don't see anyone screaming at them over this effect.

Have you never heard a republican politician speak???
 
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HannahT

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Oh Joe should be in business, but we as consumers shouldn't frequent his business. Joe should learn that as a business person he has certain things he should do to be a part of the HUMAN RACE.

So, we need to assume small to medium business people don't realize they are part of the human race. A character flaw doesn't mean sociopaths - that's mental illness and completely different. Everyone has flaws.

And that's not a problem? Sociopaths who will do whatever it takes no matter the cost to other people?

I think that's the problem. I think that's EXACTLY the problem.

I was speaking of small to medium business as movers and shakers, and no its not a problem. It employs many people. You seem to have weird view small business owners.

The small businessman isn't really the problem. Unless said small businessman says he won't support a living wage for his workers because it "costs too much" then he needs to reevaluate how he does business and why.

Most of the problem resides in how we as a nation give wealth a pass. This isn't the small business owner. The small business owner isn't the 1% in most of the cases.

The examples you gave, say, like Rockefeller, may have started as a small business but the psychopathy necessary to undertake the kind of ruthless business practices used to turn Standard Oil into a hallmark of monopolistic excess is something we should try to show OPPROBRIUM for, rather than rewarding.

Your not making any sense then. The example I was reading about was a baker name Joe that owned a small business. I mentioned small to medium sized business, and you referred to them as sociopaths.

Normally, the first couple of years of business you generally don't have employees because you yourself are working at NO salary to get the company off the ground. Then you may graduate to a PT employee, and PT isn't suppose to support a living wage. If you have FT employees in time? Generally, you pay to keep the employees there. They also are more aware of where the business needs to go in order to increase their salary in the future. They recognize they have skin in the game.

I gave you NO examples. I was speaking of small to mediums size businesses, and never mentioned Rockefeller type of business. I said the small to medium size businesses are the movers and shakers of the country - not the Rockefeller type of business. Those are considered large business or large corporations. BIG difference.

Again, please keep up. Indeed it is endemic to corporations that the top usually makes far in excess of the average worker. CEO's now make on average 300X the amount of the average worker at their businesses.

This isn't the small businessman. The small businessman ISN'T the 1%. And doesn't really factor into the income inequality.

It seems you need to keep up! Your not reading what I wrote, but just assuming I'm some advocate for big corporations.

Joe the baker - that I read about - and my examples were small to medium size businesses. Your yacking about huge corporations that you seem to feel employ most people in the USA, and if you look at the stats from the government...they don't. Small to Medium size companies DO!

Although if people continue to NOT pay attention to what they are doing to small and medium size business your income inequality stuff will be a reality from here on out. Your barking up the wrong tree!

Most of the job creation is coming from small to medium size business, and you and many like you seem to overlook that. If you encourage MORE of that growth, and LESS of the group of companies you are having a hissie over? You don't have to worry about the CEO's that average 300X the average worker.

Are you keeping up yet?

Most of those regulations were put on to protect YOU the citizen of the US and the worker and the consumer. PLease don't tell me all the problem is in regulation.

You know the reason why jobs get shifted overseas? Its because the people over there are willing to live horrific lives you and I would NEVER accept. There are often no worker safety regulations, no environmental regulations.

This is why the CEO's of the corporations shifting jobs to cheap labor markets never move to those hellholes themselves! They stay in the US...where regulations and rules have made the US a very nice and livable place.

There are many regulations and laws that government has put in place that squeeze out the little guys in favor of the big guys. You know the ones that gave them donations for the campaign, or when something awful happens...they pass a law instead of convicting the BIG corporation in question. Please don't tell you have NEVER heard of such a thing.

Are you seriously that naive to think that regulations, laws, and requirements of business are only there to protect citizens? People on both sides of the aisle have spoke on regulation overload, silly laws, and requirements that aren't needed. Do you live under a rock and not hear about that every election?

I was reading on yahoo about how they are trying to update the handguns that the military use, and government has 300 pages of regulations those guns must adhere too in order for purchase. That just added $50 to each gun due to the pages. Why do we need 300 pages, and added cost like that JUST to update to more current handguns? We can't figure something out?

That was also why the Healthcare website was so DARN expensive! Regulations on the code that they use. Its wasteful, and only HUGE corporations with large staff can even afford to bid on those contracts. You know the ones your complaining about? You remember the sociopaths!

Mom and Pop shops that employ at livable wages could handle those contracts, and YES be more competitive than your sociopath big corporations if it wasn't for some much darn red tape that government PILES on that makes no sense.

They may even employ more people if they get the contact, and help others with the living wage. Yet, people are so narrowed minded they can't think past Mr. Fry Guy at McDonalds who they want to give $15/hr too. They don't stop to think that Mr. Baker or Mom and Pop shops could give them a better quality work life, benefits, and an employer that they work along with that actually gives a crap about their well being MORE SO than sociopath big corporations.

There is a bigger picture here you are overlooking.

Have you never heard a republican politician speak???

GOP and DEMS know they are squeezing out the little guy. They also know who lines their political pocket books. I have also heard both sides of the aisle that aren't so big and powerful that you see them in the news all the time speak about the crushing of the smaller business.

Big Business can handle people like you griping about their salaries, and they have the power to stop what you want from happening. That's just the reality of it. They should care less about your opinions, and don't forget the pay the media too with the HUGE advertising budgets. They know how the game is played.

So allow the government to continue to pass and not revised stupid regulations, laws, taxes, and fees - ya know just to keep us safe. While big corporations pay it or move overseas to avoid it. Meanwhile, small to medium size business who can't afford to do that close their doors...and allow those living wage employees to go on unemployment.

There is a bigger picture you are overlooking while you hate on BIG sociopath corporations.

They (small to medium business) could help in the fight against income inequality, but go ahead...keep ignoring that reality. Encouraging their growth would only disencourage the hate that seems so much more popular.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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As a former business owner (now retired for good)...I understood that my profits were made based on my employees' performance. Employee turnover costs money too. So, it was in my best interests to hire good employees, pay them well and entice them to stay with the company. Few CEOs understand that their profits/bonuses are made on the backs of their employees. They want to pay them as little as possible, treat them like dirt and pocket the cash. Its not a viable plan.

Also...as regards the disappearing middle class...try this on. The economy is interconnected. If person A doesn't have the money to get his car repaired, purchase new appliances, buy a house; then there is a ripple effect. The mechanic loses out on making money on the repairs. The appliance manufacturer loses sales and in turn has to cut production (more people out of work). The developer, general contractor and laborers don't have houses to build and they go broke. It is to everyone's advantage to make sure that folks are being paid decent wages that can be returned into the economy, in the purchase of goods and services.

As regards the poor and the homeless...I've seen so many living on the streets...it's painful and gut-wrenching to see. SOMETHING has to change.

And...if you can see these folks and not feel horrible...then I question your very humanity.
 
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Viren

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I disagree! It has everything to do with earning/creating wealth. If you disagree, how do you think they get all that money then? Do you think they are stealing from the poor?

Ken

They use wealth to attract more wealth. They enjoy the fruit of other's labor simply because they own assets.
 
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whatbogsends

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No, invested wealth creates more wealth.

Ken

No, invested wealth facilitates workers to create more wealth. Without competent workers to execute the business model, develop products and provide services, wealth, invested or otherwise, doesn't create more wealth.
 
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FanthatSpark

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Don't confuse the symptom with the cause.

Thus , withhold your tax. Got employees? Give them their full pay check with no taxes held. Take tax hostage on a national scale. Thats Fed tax not state.. Business owners call the local governor on a mass scale for a sit down to discuss paying the state tax but no fed tax will be forth coming. Do to them what they do to you (Shut Down) until the Government wants to negotiate radicle change like . Taxing the electoral process. This gets rid of the lobbyist and dramatically changes who the candidate owes the favors to. Non digitizing the vote. With quantum chip sets only the Gov. and the hugest corps own it would behoove us to not digitize any aspect of the process.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, invested wealth facilitates workers to create more wealth. Without competent workers to execute the business model, develop products and provide services, wealth, invested or otherwise, doesn't create more wealth.
I think we are saying the same thing, just calling it a different name. When someone invests in a business, this allows those who manage the business to do various things weather it be buy new equipment, hire more workers, invest in more efficient ways of production, or maybe even all three; but whatever the case more money is put into the business and whoever manages the business decides what how it is spent, but whatever is done; if successful it results in the creation of wealth. This wealth created does not take away from the poor and middle class, and the majority of this wealth created goes into the pockets of those who invest in the business which is usually the investors; who are often the super rich. The workers only get what they originally agreed to when hired. That’s my point.

Now if you want to call that “workers creating wealth for the rich” that’s fine, but let’s not act as if the workers are the victims and the rich are the victimizers, let’s not act as if the rich are getting richer by taking advantage of the poor or line workers, because they are getting what they agreed to when they went into this agreement.

Also keep in mind, when money is invested, it doesn’t always work out; sometimes the business plan fails and doesn’t work out as planned; when this happens the loss of revenue comes out of the pockets of the investor; the line workers are not told to take a pay cut, they still get what was agreed upon in the beginning; unless the business closes down, then everybody looses, but the investor loses more. The investor wins big then things goes right, and they lose big when things go wrong.
 
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amanuensis63

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I was speaking of small to medium business as movers and shakers, and no its not a problem. It employs many people. You seem to have weird view small business owners.

So I guess that means you didn't really read my post. I don't actually feel small business people are inherently part of the systemic income inequality in the US. No doubt when they become giant corporations and start funneling more money to the upper ends and stagnating wages in the middle and lower ends they become part of the problem.

If you didn't read my post I'm afraid I can't assist you any further.
 
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whatbogsends

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I think we are saying the same thing, just calling it a different name. When someone invests in a business, this allows those who manage the business to do various things weather it be buy new equipment, hire more workers, invest in more efficient ways of production, or maybe even all three; but whatever the case more money is put into the business and whoever manages the business decides what how it is spent, but whatever is done; if successful it results in the creation of wealth. This wealth created does not take away from the poor and middle class, and the majority of this wealth created goes into the pockets of those who invest in the business which is usually the investors; who are often the super rich. The workers only get what they originally agreed to when hired. That’s my point.

Now if you want to call that “workers creating wealth for the rich” that’s fine, but let’s not act as if the workers are the victims and the rich are the victimizers, let’s not act as if the rich are getting richer by taking advantage of the poor or line workers, because they are getting what they agreed to when they went into this agreement.

Also keep in mind, when money is invested, it doesn’t always work out; sometimes the business plan fails and doesn’t work out as planned; when this happens the loss of revenue comes out of the pockets of the investor; the line workers are not told to take a pay cut, they still get what was agreed upon in the beginning; unless the business closes down, then everybody looses, but the investor loses more. The investor wins big then things goes right, and they lose big when things go wrong.

It's an uneven bargaining position. Worker protections and unions were created because owners consistently took advantage of the disparity of bargaining powers between these two groups. Without worker protections, we'd quickly return to sweat shop labor, workers essentially forced to work 16 hour days in unsafe conditions to be able to provide the bare minimum of sustenance for their families. This is the current condition of any country without worker protections, and are the countries in which global corporations seek to set up their production facilities, because they can exploit the labor as much as possible.

Unions certainly had/have their own problems with corruption, as any entity who achieves power tends to abuse that power, and unions were no exception. IMO, they were still the lesser of two evils, as we see the pendulum shifting way too far towards owner power and lack of worker bargaining power.

In a society in which one man was able to control the entire water supply, it would be economically viable for him to force workers to give ownership of their children, and sexual rights to their wives in exchange for having water to survive. It would also be "an agreed upon contract", but disparity of bargaining position will ultimately yield unfair results. While the disparity might not be that far yet, we've been moving in that direction for the past 30+ years, and continue to move in that direction.

The rich are definitely getting richer by taking advantage of the disparity of bargaining position of workers. It may be what they "agreed to", but when your choices are "agree to these unfair conditions" or "starve", people usually tend to choose the unfair conditions.

The free market is not a moral system. It is an amoral (i.e. having no moral discretion ) system. However, it's nature tends to reward the immoral.

Disparities described above will push people towards making a decision of criminal activity. If my choices are working 16 hours a day in unsafe conditions to survive, or commit crimes to survive, many will choose the latter. You need to recognize that we prosper most as a society when the workers contributions are valued for what they are, rather than being workers being treated unfairly, as they currently (by and large) are.
 
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amanuensis63

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No, invested wealth creates more wealth.

Ken

In the exact same proportion as invested LABOR creates more wealth. Neither the investor nor the worker are in any way superior to the other. Both are absolutely necessary.

And as I noted before: if one replaces the workers with automation (which is, obviously, happening now) that will only create wealth for a period of time. At some point there will be no income for the majority of people to purchase the widgets being made by the robots.

At that point investment will CEASE to create wealth and will become as useless as a factory without workers.
 
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amanuensis63

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This wealth created does not take away from the poor and middle class,

It does if the management of the business that gets the investment then shifts the jobs overseas to a cheaper labor market. It does if the management increases the bottom line by putting more money into automation at the expense of the human labor. It does if the management decides to do what my employer is currently doing and shifting more lower-paying jobs to "contractor" positions staffed mostly by people who no longer have insurance coverage or any benefits and will work for less money.

and the majority of this wealth created goes into the pockets of those who invest in the business which is usually the investors; who are often the super rich. The workers only get what they originally agreed to when hired. That’s my point.

I recently watched a friend who was a technician in our group and who had been with the company more than 10 years get sent off during a "work force reduction" (the word we use for "layoffs" now). His position was immediately backfilled by a contractor who was shifted over from another lab in the company. Now clearly the work NEEDED to be done and we COULD have kept the guy who knew the most about the projects but cost more, OR we could ship him off and bring in someone cheaper. And while that cheaper person could have been doing work that was not needed, the company I worked for opted to get rid of the permanent employee.

Do you think the technician who dedicated over a decade of his life (and whose work on the projects I used him on was excellent and whom other chemists thought was great) "agreed" to be little more than chattel until someone cheaper can along?

Now if you want to call that “workers creating wealth for the rich” that’s fine, but let’s not act as if the workers are the victims and the rich are the victimizers,

That often seems to be exactly what is going on. CEO's ship jobs to China but themselves never move to China. They do so because China is cheap labor. Well, now China is getting a middle class so CEO's are shifting the labor to Indonesia where it's still dirt cheap. Human life is cheap in this global market.

It isn't the workers who are forcing this...it's the management who sees bottomline growth by cutting opex.


let’s not act as if the rich are getting richer by taking advantage of the poor or line workers, because they are getting what they agreed to when they went into this agreement.

You are wrong. The rich ARE getting richer taking advantage of the poor. THAT IS PRECISELY WHY THEY ARE SHIFTING JOBS FROM CHINA TO INDONESIA! Cheaper labor, more poor people. Work for less.

Also keep in mind, when money is invested, it doesn’t always work out; sometimes the business plan fails and doesn’t work out as planned; when this happens the loss of revenue comes out of the pockets of the investor; the line workers are not told to take a pay cut,

WRONG! Just about 5 years ago the company I work for, a Fortune 50 monster company made us all take a 5% pay cut because times were hard.

You really need to get more experience in the work world.

they still get what was agreed upon in the beginning; unless the business closes down, then everybody looses, but the investor loses more. The investor wins big then things goes right, and they lose big when things go wrong.

Interestingly management doesn't lose much when things go wrong. Various CEO's have driven companies into the ditch and walked away with a multimillion dollar golden handshake.

Get real. Read more of the news.

Wealth often hedges itself against loss. The poor are the only people who live one medical problem away from bankruptcy.
 
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