Enoch and Elijah

[Rhamiel]

the two witnesses might be symbolic instead of literal

at times people have thought the Dominicans and Franciscans were the "two witnesses" both orders were founded around the same time and did a lot to help reform the Church

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I'm a fan of being 'simple' and looking at things most plainly before one. Sometimes, things are literal and are what they appear to be. Enoch and Elias. Yep, I think that they'll be there, those two. Who knows for certain?! I do not; God does.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

As long as this thread got revived, I'll add this interesting quote from the same book in the OP (added emphasis):

"It [the day of the Lord] will come at a time when the human race, sunk in the uttermost depths of indifference, will be far from thinking about punishment and justice. Divine Mercy will have exhausted all its resources and means of action. The Antichrist will have appeared. Men over the whole surface of the earth will have been called to the knowledge of the truth. The Catholic Church will have blossomed out into the fullness of her life and fecundity for the last time."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, p. 21​

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"...and the war he [the Antichrist] will wage against the saints will be, primarily, one of deceit and seduction."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, p. 59 (added emphasis)

 

[twob4me]

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[plain talk]

This board is quite interesting, so I decided to chime in. Firstly I do not believe that God will be so cruel as to send back two men after thousands of years being with Him to be slaughtered.

Romans 11:29

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If you are waiting to see two weird men running around in sackcloth and calling fire down from heaven - you will be waiting in vain.

 

[seekingsolace]

Firstly I do not believe that God will be so cruel as to send back two men after thousands of years being with Him to be slaughtered.

You do realise God sent His only Son to die for our sins.

 

[plain talk]

Of course, He is the Lamb of God. And without His death we all would be lost. But what purpose would it serve for Enoch and Elijah to come back and die? Nothing.

Ezekiel 18:20

These men were righteous and there is no divine law that necessitates their death.

 

[seekingsolace]

Of course, He is the Lamb of God. And without His death we all would be lost. But what purpose would it serve for Enoch and Elijah to come back and die? Nothing.

The purpose is for two witnesses - they are granted authority, power, and prophesy; who will declare their testimony. It stands to reason that if the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, that it is appointed for all men to die once (Heb 9) and that Enoch and Elijah were taken for a special purpose. Shadows and mysteries were revealed, and will continue till the final fulfillment. When the great book is closed, and all is complete.

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly."

 

[plain talk]

Your quotation of the Word is accurate, but the interpretation of it is way too superficial. No one from the Old Testament is going to be coming back. To wait for them is to be misguided.

 

[benedictaoo]

This is exactly the point. You and others keep on telling us that these prophesies and the fact that we are in the end times is the teaching of the faith, the teachings that we should rely on for our strength. Show me where the greatest theologian of our times (Pope Benedict) told us to pay attention to these teachings.

Oh wow Mark, its a pious belief, speculation that we are most certainly free to engage as long as no one calls this definitive truth and it does not contradict the faith. LWU has not done either. This is a classic case of if you don't like this topic then don't post but, oh my, there is nothing against Catholicism discussing end times prophecy.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Your quotation of the Word is accurate, but the interpretation of it is way too superficial. No one from the Old Testament is going to be coming back. To wait for them is to be misguided.

It says in the Old Testament, in Malachi 4, that Elijah will return before the end. The Jews in OT times believed this prophecy to be literal and so did St. John Chrysostom and other Catholic saints.

But fear not. “In those that perish” he will have his strength. For Elijah too will then come to give confidence to the faithful, and this Christ says; "Elijah comes, and shall restore all things." Matthew 17:11 Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.” Luke 1:17 For he neither wrought signs nor wonders, as Elijah did. For “John,” it is said, “did no miracle, but all things which John spoke of this Man were true.” How then was it “in the spirit and power of Elijah”? That is, he will take upon him the same ministry. As the one was the forerunner of His first Coming, so will the other be of His second and glorious Coming, and for this he is reserved. Let us not therefore fear. He has calmed the minds of the hearers. He causes them no longer to think present things dreadful but worthy of thankfulness.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians (circ. A.D. 391)​

And here's what St. Bede said about it:

Some understand the two prophets to be Enoch and Elijah, and that they are to preach for three years and a-half, and confirm the hearts of the faithful against the perfidy of Antichrist, which is presently to follow; and that, after their death, his cruelty is to rage for the same period of time, and then, when the conflict is at length renewed by the saints, who in the protection of their hiding-places were supposed to be dead, is to be overcome. And these, because of their fellowship in one body, are said to rise as prophets themselves; and when the persecution is intensified at the sight of those who were already thought to be dead, many of those who were supposed to be worthy of the number seven, or ten, will fall. For Daniel says, “He will confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the half of the week the oblation and sacrifice will cease, and the abomination of desolation shall be in the temple;” and the following, “and when the abomination which makes desolate shall be set up, there will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days,” which number is close upon the course of three years and a-half. Finally, Elijah of old destroyed his adversaries by fire, and was hidden for three years and a-half, and withheld the rain; and at length, when the false prophets were put to death, by means of the sacrifice which had been consumed, he turned Israel unto the Lord.

- St. Bede, The Explanation of the Apocalypse (circ. A.D. 710-716)​

In Catholicism, we have Sacred Scripture AND divine Tradition to guide us in the interpretation of the word of God. It has been a constant tradition that Elijah will return, and it's been the belief of many Catholic saints that his return would be with Enoch.

 

[pdudgeon]

Of course, He is the Lamb of God. And without His death we all would be lost. But what purpose would it serve for Enoch and Elijah to come back and die? Nothing.

Ezekiel 18:20

These men were righteous and there is no divine law that necessitates their death.

Enoch and Elijah preach to the Jews who have not recognizd their Messiah. They preach in Jerusalem.
there is a Divine Law that does necessitate their death, for both were taken alive into Heaven,
so that they might be spared until their time had come,
and so that they might be taught and empowered beyond doubt as having come from God, and by God's will.

They were both recognized by the Jews of their day as being prophets. God has not forgotten His people.
And by sending Enoch and Elijah back to proclaim the Messiah He might be able to reach His people with the truth before it is too late.

what earthly father would not do this and more to reach those of his family that He loved with the truth,
that will finally set them free?

"It is appointed unto man once to die..."
Enoch and Elijah never died on earth, but were both taken up whole into heaven.

 

[pdudgeon]

the two witnesses might be symbolic instead of literal

at times people have thought the Dominicans and Franciscans were the "two witnesses" both orders were founded around the same time and did a lot to help reform the Church

yes, but both of them died on earth, having done what they were sent by God to do.
and most importantly you also have to look at what happened after their deaths.
they were buried. they did not lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days.

did people celebrate their deaths as a good thing and congratulate each other,
or did they celebrate the lives of these two great men?
did the world cease to exist?
Look around. do we still have mountains and valleys?
are there still seas?

in point of fact, after their deaths the world continued to exist,
the gospel has been taught in more places to more people,
and more saints have been and are continually being made to this very day,
and prophesy continues.
and we have had Popes since their deaths who themselves have become saints.

and by all the witness of all those facts ^^^,
they could not have been the two witnesses.

 

[benedictaoo]

I didn't reject anything except the idea that more time should be spent in speculation about the end times than in discussion about how we can better love our Lord and serve our neighbor.

Not either\or. We can and are called to do both. Priest just said at 5pm mass that by virtue of our baptism the layity has a duty to catechize as well as to serve the poor. Why do you create this dichotomy? Preaching to repent, the kingdom of God is near is not anything anyone bearing the name Christian should complain about. Mike, I'd like you to seriously consider what's being said to you. We can, are called to and should do both spiritual works of mercy which includes instructing the ignorant along with corporal works which include feeding the poor. We so can do both and are supossed to do both as far as each are able. I just don't understand why you seem to be always having a problem with anything LWU posts. He posts a very traditional side of Church teaching which is neither wrong or incorrect.

 

[benedictaoo]

Of course not, I even suggested as much when I wondered aloud if maybe Pope Benedict just isn't a good enough Biblical scholar to understand these prophesies.

Trying to trump a pope with a pope..? Like the Calvin Prots who'll trump Jesus with Paul. Are you trying to prove past popes wrong with a more recent pope? I do expect better game from you mike.

 

[benedictaoo]

BINGO! see, that's what happens when men reject the signs of the times that would warn them of things to come. With Jesus standing right in front of them, they still
didn't see, and refused to acknowledge their own salvation when it was within a hand's reach--soooo close!
All that prophesy of all the ages happening right there in front of them--Jesus fulfilling prophecy that they should have known--and they were too pigheaded and puffed
up in themselves to see the beauty and the glory in front of them.

poor sad men. such unbelieveable glory they missed out on. it's literally a crying shame.

What's disturbing is there are folks who believe we are living in better times.

 

[benedictaoo]

You should not lie. I did not say that I don't think Pope Benedict was a very good Biblican scholar. I don't disagree with St. Pius X's statement. I disagree with people who claim to be Christians but preoccupy themselves with guessing when the end is and who they antichrist is (without even having the gall to share their beliefs) to an extent that outpaces the service that they are called to. I'm not saying you do that of course, it is possible that you devote much of your time to service of your neighbors.

Here we go again with the works... You do know were are not saved by our works alone, right? You may not have noticed but you preach a works based salvation. You know that's not the entirety of the Christian message.

 

[MikeK]

Not either\or. We can and are called to do both. Priest just said at 5pm mass that by virtue of our baptism the layity has a duty to catechize as well as to serve the poor. Why do you create this dichotomy? Preaching to repent, the kingdom of God is near is not anything anyone bearing the name Christian should complain about. Mike, I'd like you to seriously consider what's being said to you. We can, are called to and should do both spiritual works of mercy which includes instructing the ignorant along with corporal works which include feeding the poor. We so can do both and are supossed to do both as far as each are able. I just don't understand why you seem to be always having a problem with anything LWU posts. He posts a very traditional side of Church teaching which is neither wrong or incorrect.

I said "I didn't reject anything except the idea that more time should be spent in speculation about the end times than in discussion about how we can better love our Lord and serve our neighbor." I didn't say that nobody should ever think about the end times.

I have never seen the poster you refer to promote traditional Catholocism. I rather like traditional Catholocism and the various licit traditionalist groups in our Church, most especially the ICKSP. What I don't care for is transparently wrangling Church teaching when it suits one's politics and ignoring Church teaching when it doesn't. I also don't care for the constant chicken littling that some folks do over every negative piece of news that comes down the pipe. Should Christ return tomorrow, I'll be pleased. Should He return in 2,000,000 years, I'll be happy. Neither the end of the world nor the end of our lives is something that should concern us much if we have our souls squared away and remain ready to face Christ at any momment.

 

[MikeK]

Trying to trump a pope with a pope..? Like the Calvin Prots who'll trump Jesus with Paul. Are you trying to prove past popes wrong with a more recent pope? I do expect better game from you mike.

Huh? I did none of what you said. I'm not sure what you think I said, but it isn't what you just typed. What Pope do you immagine I was trying to trump with another Pope?