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How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

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FreeGrace2

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No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).
So then, you do believe that a believer will actually stop sinning.

OK, so please explain why John wrote this BEFORE he wrote 1 Jn 3:9:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 Jn 1:8-10
 
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Gregory Thompson

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How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years. In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well. Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin. Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die? Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time? So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life? Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)? Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

Hmm Paul's detractors asked the same question. I think further question for the body's edification .. how can the faithfulness of God to keep us from falling be presented so people understand that the new life given to them is a growing thing?

which is why I tend to focus on being born again instead of "saved"
 
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No, I don't think so. I'd suggest you read the link I shared and find your own answers. Are Christians Sinners or Saints?
So then, you do believe that a believer will actually stop sinning.

OK, so please explain why John wrote this BEFORE he wrote 1 Jn 3:9:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 Jn 1:8-10
 
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The underlying flaw in this whole argument is that Jason assumes that if a person believes OSAS, they automatically are out living a life of sin, living it up, and being as bad as they can. That simply is not true. that is an insult to those who hold OSAS with a heart full of thanks to God that their Salvation does not depend on what they do (or don't do) but on what He has done, and live their lives to please God and not themselves. The picture Jason is trying to sell here is false. It is a huge straw man logical fallacy.

No. It is an inevitable conclusion. In other words, make a parable or real world example out of your belief and you will be drawn to the same conclusion. For example: If I created a natural miracle cure for weight loss, then more people are going to naturally going to eat whatever unhealthy foods they desire. It's method of taking away the consequences. It is no different when a person says future sin is forgiven for the believer. They are taking away any lasting consequence that will effect them. They will be led to the conclusion that they can sin and still be saved on some level.

...
 
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John Robie

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And you would be making a false assumption. I believe one is transformed spiritually and changed because I experienced that new heart and change for myself. I just don't believe God takes away our "free will" to... choose this day in whom we will serve. I believe a saint can stop sinning and truly earn the name of being called a saint. I also believe a saint can draw back and depart from the living God, too. This does not in any way undermine the new birth. Both the concept of regeneration and free will are not in conflict with each other.


...
It does, actually, undermine the new birth. It nullifies the fact that we are His child, and a Father disciplines his children, He does not just cast them aside. It also nullifies that we are sheep who have a great Shepherd. You view only makes him sorta good. But a shepherd who loses sheep is not really that good. Your view also puts a rift in the Trinity. It's means that Jesus loses someone who the Father has given Him, and whom the Spirit has sealed. It also makes Jesus a liar because He said He'd lose none.
 
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John Robie

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Where does the Bible say that one who "prays at 12" will be saved? Or, where does the Bible say that anyone is saved by praying?? Very false assumptions.

There's only ONE way to be saved and Paul gave that answer to the jailer who asked him specifically what he MUST DO to be saved; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


This conflates 2 separates 2 different issues of "change".

First, there is the immediate change which the Bible calls regeneration, or the new birth, by which the believer becomes a new creation per 2 Cor 5:17, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Second, the Bible speaks of progressive sanctification, which we speaks of "growing in Christ", becoming Christ-like, spiritual maturity. That is a change that occurs over time, per Heb 5:12. And this change will ONLY OCCUR when one is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and is walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). When the believer either grieves the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenches the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19) they cannot grow up spiritually.
Obviously, then, you are not the type of person in question. It shows that you believe if a person is truly saved, there will be evidence of new birth, and if they live their lives with no evidence, they were not truly saved. More like the second and third seeds in the parable of the sower.
 
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No, I don't think so. I'd suggest you read the link I shared and find your own answers. Are Christians Sinners or Saints?

In the article, right at the starting gate, they are falsely claiming Paul is a sinner (present tense). They justify this by quoting 1 Timothy 1:15-16. However, verses 12-13 make it absolutely clear that Paul is talking about his past sin when he says,

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

Now, your probably thinking, what about Romans 7? Well, in the bulk of Romans 7, Paul was speaking from his perspective as a Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses before he became a Christian. This is evident by the fact that Paul says he is speaking to those who know the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (See Romans 7:1). It is also evident by the fact that Paul says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he says he is free from sin in Romans 8:2. For the bulk of Romans 7 is the problem and the end of Romans 7 and Romans 8:1 on after is the solution. That solution is Jesus Christ.

Just read chapters 7-8 again.


....
 
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John Robie

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In the article, right at the starting gate, they are falsely claiming Paul is a sinner (present tense). They justify this by quoting 1 Timothy 1:15-16. However, verses 12-13 make it absolutely clear that Paul is talking about his past sin when he says,

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

Now, your probably thinking, what about Romans 7? Well, in the bulk of Romans 7, Paul was speaking from his perspective as a Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses before he became a Christian. This is evident by the fact that Paul says he is speaking to those who know the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (See Romans 7:1). It is also evident by the fact that Paul says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he says he is free from sin in Romans 8:2. For the bulk of Romans 7 is the problem and the end of Romans 7 and Romans 8:1 on after is the solution. That solution is Jesus Christ.

Just read the chapter again.


...

....
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - 1 Timothy 1:15


Not past tense.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? - Romans 7:24

Not past tense.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Obviously, then, you are not the type of person in question. It shows that you believe if a person is truly saved, there will be evidence of new birth, and if they live their lives with no evidence, they were not truly saved. More like the second and third seeds in the parable of the sower.
No, I believe all of what the Bible teaches. That even God's children can rebel against Him and need correction and discipline. I explained the difference between the 2 different "changes" that the Bible speaks of. One at conversion, whereby the believer becomes a NEW creature, and the other change that occurs ONLY WHEN the believer is filled with and walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16).

Here is my point: IF the believer fails to do these, and instead, grieves (Eph 4:30) and quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they will NOT grow nor show any evidence of being a new creature.

Being a new creature is an interal change, and cannot be seen.

Spiritual growth is an external change and can be seen. In fact, James' point was that all believers must demonstrate their faith by their works.

Paul took the Corinthian believers to task for their carnality and he even called them "babies" in 1 Cor 1 and 3.

The writer of Hebrews did the same thing to his audience in 5:12.

When a believer lives his life with no evidence of the internal change, he should expect God's hand of discipline on him. Yet, unfortunately, there is precious little teaching from the pulpits today of divine discipline towards God's children.

Instead, we've been fed the error of Lordship salvation that if one is "truly saved" they WILL show it by their lives. That is totally opposite of what Scripture teaches.
 
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John Robie

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No, I believe all of what the Bible teaches. That even God's children can rebel against Him and need correction and discipline. I explained the difference between the 2 different "changes" that the Bible speaks of. One at conversion, whereby the believer becomes a NEW creature, and the other change that occurs ONLY WHEN the believer is filled with and walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16).

Here is my point: IF the believer fails to do these, and instead, grieves (Eph 4:30) and quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they will NOT grow nor show any evidence of being a new creature.

Being a new creature is an interal change, and cannot be seen.

Spiritual growth is an external change and can be seen. In fact, James' point was that all believers must demonstrate their faith by their works.

Paul took the Corinthian believers to task for their carnality and he even called them "babies" in 1 Cor 1 and 3.

The writer of Hebrews did the same thing to his audience in 5:12.

When a believer lives his life with no evidence of the internal change, he should expect God's hand of discipline on him. Yet, unfortunately, there is precious little teaching from the pulpits today of divine discipline towards God's children.

Instead, we've been fed the error of Lordship salvation that if one is "truly saved" they WILL show it by their lives. That is totally opposite of what Scripture teaches.
So then you are the type I identified in my post. Yeah, you are the one the OP really has issues with.


Good day.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So then you are the type I identified in my post. Yeah, you are the one the OP really has issues with.


Good day.
And I have issues with the OP. And I have laid out my view from Scripture. No one has refuted it from Scripture.

This is my view of the Christian life:

No believer can produce fruit UNLESS they are abiding in Christ. That is fellowship.

Believers are either IN fellowship with Christ or OUT of fellowship at any given point. This is based on whether the believer is living for themself (carnal, self centered, etc) or living for the Lord in obedience and faithfulness. Apparently this teaching isn't familiar to you. Shame on your pastor.

No believer can grow up spiritually UNLESS they are in fellowship with Christ. When IN fellowship, the believer IS being "filled with the Spirit" per Eph 5:18 and is "walking by means of the Spirit" per Gal 5:16.

When OUT of fellowship, the believer IS grieving the Spirit per Eph 4:30 and quenching the Spirit per 1 Thess 5:19. And cannot grow spiritually.
 
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John Robie

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And I have issues with the OP. And I have laid out my view from Scripture. No one has refuted it from Scripture.

This is my view of the Christian life:

No believer can produce fruit UNLESS they are abiding in Christ. That is fellowship.

Believers are either IN fellowship with Christ or OUT of fellowship at any given point. This is based on whether the believer is living for themself (carnal, self centered, etc) or living for the Lord in obedience and faithfulness. Apparently this teaching isn't familiar to you. Shame on your pastor.

No believer can grow up spiritually UNLESS they are in fellowship with Christ. When IN fellowship, the believer IS being "filled with the Spirit" per Eph 5:18 and is "walking by means of the Spirit" per Gal 5:16.

When OUT of fellowship, the believer IS grieving the Spirit per Eph 4:30 and quenching the Spirit per 1 Thess 5:19. And cannot grow spiritually.
I agree that's your view. And that you've used scripture. But I've read your posts and how you deal with others. I really want no part of it. Your arrogance and repeated claims of victory are shallow and petty. I'd rather deal with folks like the OP who, while misguided, is actually attempting to be Christ-like.

Good day.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I agree that's your view. And that you've used scripture. But I've read your posts and how you deal with others. I really want no part of it. Your arrogance and repeated claims of victory are shallow and petty.
I challenge you to cite ANY post of my where I have "claimed victory" for anything.

If there is no answer to my challenge, all will know who the shallow and petty poster really is.

What is quite obvious is that there was no attempt to deal with any of the verses I quoted.

If one disagrees with the way I have used these verses, at least comment on WHY my understanding of them is in error. Just to disagree doesn't further the discussion and isn't helpful.

I've explained the issue of being in or out of fellowship, with Scriptural support. If that's all wrong, please address exactly why it is.

Those who don't do this only show that they can't do it. Otherwise, they would have done it.

That should be obvious to most posters.
 
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John Robie

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I challenge you to cite ANY post of my where I have "claimed victory" for anything.

If there is no answer to my challenge, all will know who the shallow and petty poster really is.

What is quite obvious is that there was no attempt to deal with any of the verses I quoted.

If one disagrees with the way I have used these verses, at least comment on WHY my understanding of them is in error. Just to disagree doesn't further the discussion and isn't helpful.

I've explained the issue of being in or out of fellowship, with Scriptural support. If that's all wrong, please address exactly why it is.

Those who don't do this only show that they can't do it. Otherwise, they would have done it.

That should be obvious to most posters.
A wise man might have taken the criticism to heart and asked himself if there was anything he could do to come across as more loving and charitable. But it's hard to self-evaluated because we are prideful by nature.

Good day to you.
 
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I said this:
"I challenge you to cite ANY post of my where I have "claimed victory" for anything.

If there is no answer to my challenge, all will know who the shallow and petty poster really is."
A wise man might have taken the criticism to heart and asked himself if there was anything he could do to come across as more loving and charitable. But it's hard to self-evaluated because we are prideful by nature.

Good day to you.
Thanks for your answer. Loud and clear. We now know who is shallow and petty.
 
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nobdysfool

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I said this:
"I challenge you to cite ANY post of my where I have "claimed victory" for anything.

If there is no answer to my challenge, all will know who the shallow and petty poster really is."

Thanks for your answer. Loud and clear. We now know who is shallow and petty.

Indeed we do...
 
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John Robie

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I said this:
"I challenge you to cite ANY post of my where I have "claimed victory" for anything.

If there is no answer to my challenge, all will know who the shallow and petty poster really is."

Thanks for your answer. Loud and clear. We now know who is shallow and petty.
Yes, we do.
 
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nobdysfool

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No. It is an inevitable conclusion. In other words, make a parable or real world example out of your belief and you will be drawn to the same conclusion. For example: If I created a natural miracle cure for weight loss, then more people are going to naturally going to eat whatever unhealthy foods they desire. It's method of taking away the consequences. It is no different when a person says future sin is forgiven for the believer. They are taking away any lasting consequence that will effect them. They will be led to the conclusion that they can sin and still be saved on some level.

...


I know of no one saying that future sin is already forgiven. Future sin has been dealt with, in terms of the availability of forgiveness. There is a difference. They are forgiven when we confess and repent. The Believer walking in the Spirit walks in repentance and forgiveness. I already pointed out that when your sins were dealt with on the cross , ALL of them were yet future. Same with mine. None of them were forgiven until we confessed and repented. As such, you are mis-stating what others believe. You are attempting to lump all under one paradigm, and then condemning them all. You are accusing brethren of willful, continual sin, when you have no hard evidence nor could you have such. Anecdotal evidence is not applicable across the board, it applies only to those who were directly involved. Think you so little of the Power of God's Grace, that you would excuse that lack of respect for God's Grace, by alluding to free will to sidestep the clear problems your view has?

Do you honestly believe that if one says some programmed words, that people are saved? If so, then you must also believe in magic. Unless the Holy Spirit is active in that situation, in that person, all the magic words and phrases will have zero effect.

Has it ever occurred to you that not every one who says they are saved, are actually saved? They can say so until they're blue in the face, but if their life does not reflect a congruence with their confession, their confession may not be genuine. If so, they are not truly saved, and you cannot expect them to be able to walk like a Christian when they are not one. I think some of those who you point to as proof of your view are not actually real Christians, and therefore an honest assessment of your view falls apart, because of a faulty sample that is being used as proof.

And let's be clear. You did not accept Jesus, He accepted you. The correct term is, you received Christ. That's what actually happened.
 
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If you're going to try and disprove OSAS/Perseverance of the Saints, it entirely depends on who you are contending with. Over and over and over again do I see these types of theological/philosophical arguments that do not even slightly attempt to take the surrounding and supporting systematic theology into account. It should be understood that Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine that flows out of other foundational teachings of Reformed Theology, and until those foundational teachings are dealt with, the argument will take place on two completely different planes. Reformed theology teaches in eternity past there was an intra-trinitarian agreement to save a named elect people (aka Pactum Salutis). It wouldn't make much sense for Reformed Theology to affirm this and yet concurrently hold that these elect people can be lost. Understand the major disconnect between those two ideas, and yet, the arguments against Perseverance of the Saints attempt to dislodge it from its presupposed framework in which it functions and transplant it into a framework in which it does not function, and THEN point out its faults. This is sloppy argumentation.
 
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I have been kind of busy lately. So I apologize if I have not replied to anyone posts recently.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you all. And please be well.

...
 
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