How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

If context were your concern you wouldn't be making the argument you are making.
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him (1 John 5:18).

So that means David never knew God because he fell into a time of sin? Then how did he take down Goliath?

Wait, let me guess, do you believe people in the Old Testament were not born again?
If so, then how could somebody circumcise their own heart? For those who were not circumcised in heart and not circumcised physically could not enter the Temple (Ezekiel 44:9).

Anyways, the 1st epistle of John was addressing the gnostic's false beliefs that they can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved. It is essentially refuting Once Saved Always Saved.

But if you want to look at these texts in relation to the entirety of the Bible, then you must know that Ezekiel 18 says,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).​

In other words, when a believer turns back to sinning, God no longer remembers their previous righteousness. For God identifies with the righteous and not the unrighteous. So if a believer falls back into sin, it's as if they never existed in his memory for them as a righteous person because of the evil that they done. This is why they need to repent and confess their sin like David did (and get their heart right with God). For David said to the LORD not to take His Holy Spirit from him (See Psalm 51).

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (Hebrews 10:26).

And we have "free will" to choose God and or not to choose God even as a believer. For if we.... "willfully" sin afer we.... "received." the knowledge of the truth (i.e. the faith or an acceptance of Christ).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"


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[Bible Highlighter]

So then, you do believe that a believer will actually stop sinning.

OK, so please explain why John wrote this BEFORE he wrote 1 Jn 3:9:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 Jn 1:8-10

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even one of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false gnostic believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today who says a similar thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle. The OSAS proponent believes sin is forgiven them (Past, present, and future). So the OSAS proponent does not believe they sin on a spiritual level. They do not believe 1 John 1:9 is necessary to be forgiven of sin (Like the true believer).

"For if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive our sin." (1 John 1:9).

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[Bible Highlighter]

Hmm Paul's detractors asked the same question. I think further question for the body's edification .. how can the faithfulness of God to keep us from falling be presented so people understand that the new life given to them is a growing thing?

which is why I tend to focus on being born again instead of "saved"

Being born again or regenerated in the present moment means one is saved. The moment one falls back into a lifestyle of sin, they no longer have a new heart and a new spirit anymore. They then become a slave to sin and not a slave to righteousness. So if one chooses to depart from the living God (as Hebrews 3 talks about), then they are choosing of their own "free will" to ignore their new changed heart and new life in favor of going back to their old life (Like a dog returning to his own vomit). Clearly such an individual was saved initially when they surrendered their life to God and they later became unsaved by choosing to depart from God. For even Lucifer was created perfect, until iniquity was found within him (Because he made a "free will" choice to turn against God).

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:15).


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[Bible Highlighter]

It does, actually, undermine the new birth. It nullifies the fact that we are His child, and a Father disciplines his children, He does not just cast them aside. It also nullifies that we are sheep who have a great Shepherd. You view only makes him sorta good. But a shepherd who loses sheep is not really that good. Your view also puts a rift in the Trinity. It's means that Jesus loses someone who the Father has given Him, and whom the Spirit has sealed. It also makes Jesus a liar because He said He'd lose none.

Either God creates man with "free will" or he doesn't. So if you believe man has no "free will" and it is God who ultimately decides who is saved and who sins, then you have to conclude that God directly created evil and that the Judgment is a farce or a joke.

Anyways, the confusion arises on this topic because folks do not realize that God chooses us ahead of time based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choices. That is what 1 Peter 1:1-2 says.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ..." (1 Peter 1:1-2).​

In other words, believers are "Elect" (Chosen) based on the foreknowledge (future knowledge) of God the Father (Because God the Father knows the future about the choice we would make regarding Him).

So God is able to grant us repentance because he knows how we would respond to His grace. God in no way forces anyone to be saved. Nor does God make specific people to be saved and others to be unsaved. People will be held accountable for their action in regards to accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ.

Now, if you believe God only chooses those who endure in their faith to the end, then how exactly is it fair to those people who truly desire to repent of their sins and accept Christ and want to serve Him according to His Word initially? Do you believe people cannot change their mind? What about the promises of God to the person (who initially follows Him) who honestly wants to follow God and be saved? Does God just ingore the individuals who He knows will later reject Him? If such were the case, then how is God not breaking His Word here? In other words, the Bible says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). If a person who initially accepts the Lord acts upon that verse, is God going to ignore them (because He knows they will just later reject Him)?


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[Bible Highlighter]

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - 1 Timothy 1:15


Not past tense.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? - Romans 7:24

Not past tense.

As for 1 Timothy 1:15: Well, again, look at the context of the previous verses (Verses 13-14). It clearly tells us this is talking in the past tense.

As for Romans 7: Here is a brief quote from an article that might help,

"It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience in Romans 7. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18)."​

Also, in addition, you have to answer how Paul says he is "sold under sin" in Romans 7:14 and yet somehow he is "free from sin" in Romans 8:2. How exactly do you explain that? Do you believe as other OSAS proponents do who say that when they sin, they only sin the flesh and they do not sin in the spirit?


Source:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2012/apr/27/paul-is-not-talking-about-himself-why-i-take-the-p/

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, I am still in the process of trying to reply to folks here. So please be patient if I have not responded to your post yet.

Thank you and God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Side Note:

Please take note that this may or may not be directed towards you specifically. I am merely posting this message in a generic way so as to attack the belief and not the person.

 

[John Robie]

Either God creates man with "free will" or he doesn't. So if you believe man has no "free will" and it is God who ultimately decides who is saved and who sins, then you have to conclude that God directly created evil and that the Judgment is a farce or a joke.

Anyways, the confusion arises on this topic because folks do not realize that God chooses us ahead of time based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choices. That is what 1 Peter 1:1-2 says.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ..." (1 Peter 1:1-2).​

In other words, believers are "Elect" (Chosen) based on the foreknowledge (future knowledge) of God the Father (Because God the Father knows the future about the choice we would make regarding Him).

So God is able to grant us repentance because he knows how we would respond to His grace. God in no way forces anyone to be saved. Nor does God make specific people to be saved and others to be unsaved. People will be held accountable for their action in regards to accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ.

Now, if you believe God only chooses those who endure in their faith to the end, then how exactly is it fair to those people who truly desire to repent of their sins and accept Christ and want to serve Him according to His Word initially? Do you believe people cannot change their mind? What about the promises of God to the person (who initially follows Him) who honestly wants to follow God and be saved? Does God just ingore the individuals who He knows will later reject Him? If such were the case, then how is God not breaking His Word here? In other words, the Bible says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). If a person who initially accepts the Lord acts upon that verse, is God going to ignore them (because He knows they will just later reject Him)?


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I made a number of points in my post that addressed your point. It's respectful in a discussion to do so. You, however, did not respond in kind. Instead, you took your typical tact and just made another argument for for position. This is called a red herring.

The fact that you did not address my post (which has become a common theme with you) indicates that you have no reasonable response. If you do, in actuality, have a response, I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

[John Robie]

As for 1 Timothy 1:15: Well, again, look at the context of the previous verses (Verses 13-14). It clearly tells us this is talking in the past tense.

As for Romans 7: Here is a brief quote from an article that might help,

"It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience in Romans 7. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18)."​

Also, in addition, you have to answer how Paul says he is "sold under sin" in Romans 7:14 and yet somehow he is "free from sin" in Romans 8:2. How exactly do you explain that? Do you believe as other OSAS proponents do who say that when they sin, they only sin the flesh and they do not sin in the spirit?


Source:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2012/apr/27/paul-is-not-talking-about-himself-why-i-take-the-p/

12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. - 1 Timothy 1:12-16

Regardless of the verses surrounding it, verse 15 is still present tense.

You need to take some time to understand the tension between the flesh and the spirit. That's what Paul is constantly talking about. Paul understood the gospel. He understood that we are inherently sinful, and we will constantly struggle with the flesh. That's why he was always telling the churches to not sin. Not once does he ever say if you sin you'll lose your salvation. But he was concerned about their sanctification. So while he was warning them not to sin, it was always couched in the gospel of grace.

One thing you need to learn is that you'll never be good enough. Which is why we need a savior. And it's why we are described as sheep (who need a shepherd), and as children with a loving father. These are relationships that cannot be broken.

 

[John Robie]

Side Note:

Please take note that this may or may not be directed towards you specifically. I am merely posting this message in a generic way so as to attack the belief and not the person.

I don't think anyone is saying that we should feel comfortable sinning. But we should take comfort that our salvation is not dependent on anything we do, but solely on what He has done.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I made a number of points in my post that addressed your point. It's respectful in a discussion to do so. You, however, did not respond in kind. Instead, you took your typical tact and just made another argument for for position. This is called a red herring.

The fact that you did not address my post (which has become a common theme with you) indicates that you have no reasonable response. If you do, in actuality, have a response, I'd be interested in hearing it.

There is only one correct interpretation and we both cannot be right. My explanation helps to disprove any point you think you made. For if you are wrong, your point doesn't exist and it is a wrong understanding of what was intended in God's Holy Word.

For example: If I said that your dog attacked me and you didn't believe me, bringing up points about how you're dog was always good to you and others would be irrelevant if you're dog really attacked me and I had evidence to prove it.

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[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think anyone is saying that we should feel comfortable sinning. But we should take comfort that our salvation is not dependent on anything we do, but solely on what He has done.

I disagree. First, there are many I talked with both online and in person who think they can sin and be saved. Second, the latter half of what you said here can easily be misunderstood by many to think they can live however they like and be saved. Therein lies the problem.


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[John Robie]

There is only one correct interpretation and we both cannot be right. My explanation helps to disprove any point you think you made. For if you are wrong, your point doesn't exist and it is a wrong understanding of what was intended in God's Holy Word.

For example: If I said that your dog attacked me and you didn't believe me, bringing up points about how you're dog was always good to you and others would be irrelevant if you're dog really attacked me and I had evidence to prove it.

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Again, you didn't address my points.

Let's try this. Your view puts a rift within the Trinity. Jesus said He would lose none the Father had given Him. And we are sealed by the Spirit. If you are correct, not only is Jesus a liar (or mistaken), you are saying we are more powerful than the Spirit.

How would you respond to this point?

 

[John Robie]

I disagree. First, there are many I talked with both online and in person who think they can sin and be saved. Second, the latter half of what you said here can easily be misunderstood by many to think they can live however they like and be saved. Therein lies the problem.


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Just because a position can be misunderstood does not make it incorrect.

 

[nobdysfool]

In other words, you're right because you say you are, and anyone who says differently can't be right, because you're right...

Using a scripture speaking of Lucifer to try and prove a point about man is a new low, and a horrible exegesis.

You have shown that you believe that the moment a Believer sins, they are no longer saved. No allowance made for Grace at all. I guess maybe the question you should be answering is, How many times have you been saved today? Or, How many times have you lost your Salvation today?

John Robie made a valid and crucial point. His assessment of the failure to address posts which ask pertinent and important questions, and drag red herrings into the discussion, is spot on.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"So then, you do believe that a believer will actually stop sinning.

OK, so please explain why John wrote this BEFORE he wrote 1 Jn 3:9:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 Jn 1:8-10"

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

Now, let me ask you a question.

Before I answer, I requested an explanation of v.8-10 of 1 Jn. And this is a deflection from that request. Please respond to those verses, esp since your view is that a human being can completely cease from sinning. I think v.8-10 are clear enough that we cannot cease from sinning.

If you are breaking even one of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

At that moment, of course not.

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false gnostic believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today who says a smilar thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle. The OSAS proponent believes sin is forgiven them (Past, present, and future).

We know from Hebrews that Christ died for sin "once for all". Meaning for all time. That does cover past, present and future.

So the OSAS proponent does not believe they sin on a spiritual level.

Why would anyone sin on a "spiritual level"? I've never heard of such a thing. All sin comes from our sinful nature. We sin naturally, not spiritually. Please elaborate on what is meant by "spiritual level".

They do not believe 1 John 1:9 is necessary to be forgiven of sin (Like the true believer).

I've been OSAS my whole Christian life. And I've never heard anyone who believes OSAS to believe this. Actually, the free grace movement teaches the absolute importance of 1 Jn 1:9 for on-going fellowship.

"For if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive our sin." (1 John 1:9).
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The subject of ch 1 is fellowship. If a believer has unconfessed sin, they are not in fellowship with the Lord. Through confession, one is cleansed from the on-going sins that all believers commit.

 

[Hillsage]

There is only one correct interpretation and we both cannot be right.

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True, but both of you being 'half' right is most certainly an interpretation which is not considered when one thinks they already see the whole truth. The church has argued these two opposing views for centuries, never coming to an understanding of both 'half truths' IMO.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, you didn't address my points.

Let's try this. Your view puts a rift within the Trinity. Jesus said He would lose none the Father had given Him. And we are sealed by the Spirit. If you are correct, not only is Jesus a liar (or mistaken), you are saying we are more powerful than the Spirit.

How would you respond to this point?

Your belief that there is a rift in the Trinity in my view is based upon a false interpretation of two passages (i.e. John 6:37-40 and Ephesians 1:13-14).

As for Christ's statement that He should lose nothing in John 6:37-40, please check out what I already said in this thread here on that:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...se-to-sin-moved.7902727/page-12#post-68697519

As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

What is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evilspirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts. 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.

Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 6: 11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not


Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True, but both of you being 'half' right is most certainly an interpretation which is not considered when one thinks they already see the whole truth. The church has argued these two opposing views for centuries, never coming to an understanding of both 'half truths' IMO.

God's Truth is consistent not only within the Word itself but with reality or the real world, too. OSAS cannot be made into a real parable or real world example and it's envitable conclusion is an ignoring of God's laws on some level. So OSAS is dirty and not true.


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[nobdysfool]

God's Truth is consistent not only within the Word itself but with reality or the real world, too. OSAS cannot be made into a real parable or real world example and it's envitable conclusion is an ignoring of God's laws on some level. So OSAS dirty and not true.


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You forgot one very important phrase: IN YOUR OPINION.