How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

You are creating categories that scripture doesn't support (unsaved believer).

So you don't believe people can believe in a false Jesus or false gospel?

But let me try this. Is a saved person considered to be in Christ?

Yes, based on the condition that they do not willfully sin and depart from the living God.

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[nobdysfool]

So you don't believe people can believe in a false Jesus or false gospel?



Yes, based on the condition that they do not willfully sin and depart from the living God.

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So, Salvation is not about what He did, but what we do in response to what He did...

When will you learn to trust in Christ instead of your own efforts? Do you think the One who Saves you cannot keep you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2]The idea that a regenerated person will not desire sin is not taught in Scripture. What is taught is that we have a choice between sin and obedience as to whom we will obey.

Actually, it's taught quite frequently in scripture, most notably in 1 John.

Otherwise, what's the point of receiving a new nature that is no different than the old one?[/QUOTE]
First, 1 John is about FELLOWSHIP. Just count the times John mentions it in that chapter.

Second, the point is that the new nature is where the indwelling Holy Spirit resides and empowers the believer to do "good works" per Eph 2:10. No one can perform good works from their sin nature. Which is the whole point of 1 John 3:9. Although John states it from the standpoint of sin. iow, the believer CANNOT sin from his new nature. All sin comes from the sin nature.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The 1st epistle of John teaches Conditionalism and not OSAS.

1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7 says IF we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 2:4 says, he that says I know Him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:15 says, whosever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

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How about considering 1 John 1:3,6 and 7? What word occurs 4 times in these 3 verses? Fellowship. This is NOT about getting or staying saved, but about fellowship, or spiritual growth.

Salvation is about relationship. Spiritual growth is about fellowship. They are different.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The 1st epistle of John teaches Conditionalism and not OSAS.

1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7 says IF we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 2:4 says, he that says I know Him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:15 says, whosever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

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These verse do not teach: saved today and lost tomorrow, supposedly.
Rather, the tense is the present continuous: the blood of Christ is cleansing, continues to cleanse all true believers.

 

[GillDouglas]

If you were to keep reading in verse 16, Jesus excludes the hypocrites (i.e. false believers). So no. Jesus is talking to the saved believer. If Jesus was talking to an unsaved believer, it would not do them any good to forgive if they do not repent of their sins and get their heart right with Christ (God). A false believer is the same as an unbeliever. God does not consider someone a believer if they do not believe or have faith (even if they pretend to be religious or act like they know Christ).


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God knows all who are His and its not based on any fallible so called 'good works' the individual does. The only reason that person is saved is because He put them in that condition. As you say there are no false believers, only unbelievers posing as a follower of Christ. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing the Devil uses.

 

[John Robie]

Yes, based on the condition that they do not willfully sin and depart from the living God.

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So what happens first, the sin or not being in Christ? In other words, can one who is in Christ sin?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Even Paul admitted he struggled with sin.....
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am merely human, sold as a slave to sin.
Rom 7:15 I don't understand what I am doing. For I don't practice what I want to do, but instead do what I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I practice what I don't want to do, I am admitting that the Law is good.
Rom 7:17 As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I don't do the good I want to do, but instead do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.
Rom 7:21 So I find this to be a principle: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my body a different principle waging war with the Law in my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that exists in my body.
Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is infected by death?
Rom 7:25 Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin.
If Paul had these great struggles, what hope would we have without permanent salvation from Messiah?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So, Salvation is not about what He did, but what we do in response to what He did...

When will you learn to trust in Christ instead of your own efforts? Do you think the One who Saves you cannot keep you?

Repenting of one's sins and accepting Christ get's one at the starting gate whereby Christ then does the good work in them. So Christ saves both in Justification and in Sanctification. So there is no Works Salvationism on the part of man going on here. It's all Christ 100%. However, if we are willfully sinning against the LORD, this then breaks one's relationship with God. Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John says, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. John also says, "purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."


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[Bible Highlighter]

Even Paul admitted he struggled with sin.....
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am merely human, sold as a slave to sin.
Rom 7:15 I don't understand what I am doing. For I don't practice what I want to do, but instead do what I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I practice what I don't want to do, I am admitting that the Law is good.
Rom 7:17 As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I don't do the good I want to do, but instead do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.
Rom 7:21 So I find this to be a principle: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my body a different principle waging war with the Law in my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that exists in my body.
Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is infected by death?
Rom 7:25 Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin.
If Paul had these great struggles, what hope would we have without permanent salvation from Messiah?

No. Paul said this from his perspective of when he was a Jew (Who obeyed the Law of Moses) before he was a Christian. How so? Well, first, who is Paul talking to? See Romans 7:1. He says he speaks to them that know the Law (i.e. those who know the Law of Moses). Second, Romans 7:14 Paul says he is sold under sin. But in Romans 8:2, he says he is free from sin. So which is it? Either Paul has a multiple personality disorder or he is talking from two different perspectives. In addition, if you were to read Romans 7 again, you will notice that it is like a build up to the solution at the end of the chapter. That solution is Jesus Christ. Romans 8:1 is also a verse of clarity to the problem that is put forth in Romans 7, too.


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[Bible Highlighter]

These verse do not teach: saved today and lost tomorrow, supposedly.
Rather, the tense is the present continuous: the blood of Christ is cleansing, continues to cleanse all true believers.

I beg to differ. It doesn't sound like that to me by the way that they are worded at all. Especially 1 John 3:15. Care to explain how you think they do not mean what they say at face value?


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[faroukfarouk]

I beg to differ. It doesn't sound like that to me by the way that they are worded at all. Especially 1 John 3:15. Care to explain how you think they do not mean what they say at face value?


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If someone gives real evidence of not being born again, then they never were. I never yet saw a once born, unborn person. It's basic to John chapter 3. It's entirely a work of God to be born again. Not yours or mine.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God knows all who are His and its not based on any fallible so called 'good works' the individual does. The only reason that person is saved is because He put them in that condition. As you say there are no false believers, only unbelievers posing as a follower of Christ. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing the Devil uses.

Well, I do not believe in Works Salvationism. But ask yourself these question(s): What is more evil? To do evil with the hope that one will be saved? Or to do good works for the LORD as a part of one's salvation? Granted, I do not believe in Works Salvationism, but if I had to pick between one wrong heresy or the other, I would go with Works Salvationism because at least I would be doing good before the LORD and not evil. Doing evil just makes a person a bad guy and not a good guy. People are defined by their actions. What did Jesus do that impresses us so much? He died in our place. This is the example Christ left us. To take up our cross and lay down our lives for the brethren in love for them. God in no way can condone a person's evil or sin. I am sorry, it just doesn't work like that. If a person thinks they can sin and still be saved, it would be better if they didn't even believe in God because they are insulting Him by doing evil in His name.


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[Bible Highlighter]

If someone gives real evidence of not being born again, then they never were. I never yet saw a once born, unborn person. It's basic to John chapter 3. It's entirely a work of God to be born again. Not yours or mine.

That is not really a commentary on the verses I brought forth. Please go back and explain the verses I brought up and how you think they do not deal with salvation.


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[Bible Highlighter]

How about considering 1 John 1:3,6 and 7? What word occurs 4 times in these 3 verses? Fellowship. This is NOT about getting or staying saved, but about fellowship, or spiritual growth.

Salvation is about relationship. Spiritual growth is about fellowship. They are different.

I have heard this excuse before but it does not hold water. Fellowship is a part of having salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. 1 John 1:7 makes it clear that our walking in the light (correct fellowship) cleanses us of all sin. 1 John 1:7 does not say we just believe and we are cleansed of all sin. This makes sense because 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.


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[GillDouglas]

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Well, I do not believe in Works Salvationism. But ask yourself these question(s): What is more evil? To do evil with the hope that one will be saved? Or to do good works for the LORD as a part of one's salvation? Granted, I do not believe in Works Salvationism, but if I had to pick between one wrong heresy or the other, I would go with Works Salvationism because at least I would be doing good before the LORD and not evil. Doing evil just makes a person a bad guy and not a good guy. People are defined by their actions. What did Jesus do that impresses us so much? He died in our place. This is the example Christ left us. To take up our cross and lay down our lives for the brethren in love for them. God in no way can condone a person's evil or sin. I am sorry, it just doesn't work like that. If a person thinks they can sin and still be saved, it would be better if they didn't even believe in God because they are insulting Him by doing evil in His name.
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You do realize that God uses ALL things that both the believer and unbeliver does to further His plans, for His glory? So while He can do no evil He certainly allows it for His glory? It's all about His soverignty, all about His plan. A saved man may stumble and sin, yet God will use that trial in the spiritual growth of that individual.

 

[John Robie]

Yes, based on the condition that they do not willfully sin and depart from the living God.

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So what happens first, the sin or not being in Christ? In other words, can one who is in Christ sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"How about considering 1 John 1:3,6 and 7? What word occurs 4 times in these 3 verses? Fellowship. This is NOT about getting or staying saved, but about fellowship, or spiritual growth.

Salvation is about relationship. Spiritual growth is about fellowship. They are different."

I have heard this excuse before but it does not hold water.

It's not an excuse. It's an explanation of reality.

Fellowship is a part of having salvation.

This is easily proven wrong. Consider a marriage. That is a relationship between a man and woman. And in God's view, it is PERMANENT. Now, marriages can be harmonious or rocky. That is about fellowship, or the lack thereof. They ARE different. A marriage may have NO fellowship.

Or consider the parent child RELATIONSHIP. That is also PERMANENT. But there can be serious rebellion on the part of the child, as we see in the parable of the prodigal son.

The Bible uses both analogies (marriage and family) to describe the RELATIONSHIP between believer and God. Which is also PERMANENT.

For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Nowhere in 1 John nor anywhere else in the Bible do we find any teaching that one who HAS the Son can LOSE the Son. Impossible. Those passages about abiding and remaining in the Son are about fellowship. The relationship cannot be broken.

1 John 1:7 makes it clear that our walking in the light (correct fellowship) cleanses us of all sin.

Which is about fellowship, not relationship.

1 John 1:7 does not say we just believe and we are cleansed of all sin. This makes sense because 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.....

Which is true of many believers; the truth is not in them. Why? Because they have either been taught poorly or inaccurately, or they just don't really care what the Bible says.

4 times Paul wrote "I don't want you ignorant, brothers…". Why? They WERE ignorant. And he was teaching them (and us) the truth.

Unless we are taught the truth, we cannot know the truth.

Those who are unfamiliar with the differences between relationship and fellowship will never understand much of Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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You do realize that God uses ALL things that both the believer and unbeliver does to further His plans, for His glory? So while He can do no evil He certainly allows it for His glory? It's all about His soverignty, all about His plan. A saved man may stumble and sin, yet God will use that trial in the spiritual growth of that individual.

While grace and mercy is there for those who stumble whereby they would confess and forsake sin, grace and mercy is not for those who remain prideful by holding onto their sin with the thinking they are saved. For God resists the proud.

As for God using both good and evil for His purposes: Yes, we see this in the story of Joseph and Romans 8:28, etc. That does not mean he will allow one of his people to abuse his grace, though. In other words, it would be like a father dying in their son's place by pushing them out of the way of a car racing down the street. If the son lived to do evil after that incident he would be dishonoring his father's heroic act.

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[Bible Highlighter]

So what happens first, the sin or not being in Christ? In other words, can one who is in Christ sin?

We are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit. So yes. A believer can stumble, but that does not equate with one living in a sinful lifestyle with the thinking they are saved. Future sin is not forgiven you. It doesn't work like that. If such were the case: Then it would lead people to think they can live however they like and still be saved. But how is that different than one being an unbeliever?


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