If you're a Christian and pro-choice, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

[patricius79]

Then no...I don't think newborns are less human than me.

Thanks. So if a newborn is not less human than you are, how can a fetus be less human than a newborn?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is a newborn or a 4-year old less of a person than you are?

I answered that about 13 mins ago.

 

[Blank Stair]

Thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[patricius79]

I answered that about 13 mins ago.

I know. Sorry. Please see post 121.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just wondering...

what makes a newborn baby (which means that the baby just passed through the mother's birth canal, into our oxygenated atmosphere, etc.) "human" as opposed to before the traveling through the birth canal? The moments before, this same baby is not human?

One has a chance of dying before being born.

Realistically though, I realize that once a fetus gets about 8-4 weeks from being born, the odds are actually in it's favor that it can survive birth. For me personally, I don't like the idea of abortions at that point...I think the mother has had ample time at that point to make a decision. However, I'm not willing to force the choice on anyone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thanks. So if a newborn is not less human than you are, how can a fetus be less human than a newborn?

It's not born...so it has a chance of never making it to personhood.


It's the same reason I'm in favor of having the choice to pull the plug on someone in an extended period of coma. If the doctors say there's little chance of them ever coming out of it...spouses/guardians should have the choice.

The guy in the coma is still potentially a person....but only potentially.

 

[brinny]

One has a chance of dying before being born.

Realistically though, I realize that once a fetus gets about 8-4 weeks from being born, the odds are actually in it's favor that it can survive birth. For me personally, I don't like the idea of abortions at that point...I think the mother has had ample time at that point to make a decision. However, I'm not willing to force the choice on anyone.

a chance of dying before being born? How does that determine who is human? Dying means that "life" died/was lost, doesn't it? And in that life the question remains if that life was "human" or not.

 

[brinny]

It's not born...so it has a chance of never making it to personhood.


It's the same reason I'm in favor of having the choice to pull the plug on someone in an extended period of coma. If the doctors say there's little chance of them ever coming out of it...spouses/guardians should have the choice.

The guy in the coma is still potentially a person....but only potentially.

When did the one in the coma cease being human? Is being human dependent on a particular state of consciousness? If one goes into a coma or an altered state of some sort, have they signed away their state of being human or is someone deciding for them that they are no longer human?

 

[Blank Stair]

It's not born...so it has a chance of never making it to personhood.


It's the same reason I'm in favor of having the choice to pull the plug on someone in an extended period of coma. If the doctors say there's little chance of them ever coming out of it...spouses/guardians should have the choice.

The guy in the coma is still potentially a person....but only potentially.

You have your own definitions don't you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

When did the one in the coma cease being human? Is being human dependent on a particular state of consciousness? If one goes into a coma or an altered state of some sort, have they signed away their state of being human or is someone deciding for them that they are no longer human?

Did you purposely switch the words 'person" and "human" or was it unintended?

Of course they're still human.

 

[Ana the Ist]

a chance of dying before being born? How does that determine who is human? Dying means that "life" died/was lost, doesn't it? And in that life the question remains if that life was "human" or not.

Are you asking about being a human or being a person?

 

[brinny]

Did you purposely switch the words 'person" and "human" or was it unintended?

Of course they're still human.

I'm not sure what the difference is...but in the meantime i sorta' define the living person as "human"

 

[brinny]

Are you asking about being a human or being a person?

Is there a difference?

 

[bhsmte]

A miscarriage is not an abortion.

A miscarriage is a natural means of aborting the fetus.

 

[asherahSamaria]

According to the Bible it appears that a fetus is not a person until after birth.

In Exodus 21:22‑23 - an attacker who causes a miscarriage only has to pay a fine - they are not charged with manslaughter.

I understand that is the Jewish belief anyway.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Jesus was an advocate for the "least of these." We are to protect and love those that God has blessed us with (our offspring). We are made in the Image of God.

Consider these quotes by the early church fathers:


Tertullian (c.160-240)


And lest we forget:


You can read more here: http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/earlychurchfathers/fatherscover.html

Atta boy! You tell those women they should have no control over their own bodies! They're man's property!

Yea Misogyny is so cool.

 

[Chany]

I have no idea what point you're trying to get across here. Self-defense from a fetus?

Answer the question, please.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Women can't do whatever they want with their bodies. Neither can men.

In a free society, you can.
Perhaps you prefer a dictatorship.

I don't.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So just to be clear, nowhere in the OT or NT does it prohibit abortion?

Exodus 21
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
So if this is the puishment for accidental harm, how much more when it is intentional?

 

[asherahSamaria]

Exodus 21
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
So if this is the puishment for accidental harm, how much more when it is intentional?

Actually no, the Exodus passage just indicates that a fetus was not considered to be a person - hence a fine, and not a manslaughter - which would require a life for a life.