Maybe Moses really had horns

[cloudyday2]

Actually, there's this, so -1.
Personally, I like the deities with antlers.

I realized I didn't know the difference between horns and antlers, but I found this page:
http://animaldiversity.org/collections/mammal_anatomy/horns_and_antlers/

 

[cloudyday2]

Evidence that Jews weren't monotheists prior to the Babylonian Exile?

Here is a link and one of many possible quotes from that link

The origins of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age polytheistic Ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Babylonian captivity of the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, certain circles within the exiled Judahites in Babylon redefined pre-existing ideas about monotheism, election, divine law and Covenant into a theology which came to dominate the former Judah in the following centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

 

[LoAmmi]

Here is a link and one of many possible quotes from that link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

I have no problem with the idea that the full concept of monotheism developed slowly. I do take issue with the idea that it took Zoroastrianism to define our religion. Seems kind of unsubstantiated.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paganism and idolatry was common in Judah and Israel until after Ezra returned from Persia with instructions from Cyrus to build a temple and whip the locals into monotheistic shape. Monotheism was the state religion of Persia, so Cyrus was probably trying to export Zoroastrianism by converting Jewish monolatry into monotheism. That is probably when the current form of the Torah was created from a collection of earlier Jewish religious texts. The Zoroastrian Jews who collected these writings into the current Torah had to remove some of the more obvious traces of Canaanite religion in the process.

What are you basing this information off? I believe that the Jews were the first monotheistic religion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have no problem with the idea that the full concept of monotheism developed slowly. I do take issue with the idea that it took Zoroastrianism to define our religion. Seems kind of unsubstantiated.

I've never in 46 years ever heard anyone say that Judaism came from Zoroastrianism. That religion barely exists.

She may be by 'Canaanite' referring to the people Joshua & The Israelites fought to obtain the Promised Land. Those people of Canaan were heathens to Judaism.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here is a link and one of many possible quotes from that link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

The Old Testament in the Bible calls Babylon evil. This doesn't wash with the Bible at all

 

[cloudyday2]

Here is something I found explaining the Zoroastrian influence on Judaism. The whole article is informative, but here is snippet:

The points of resemblance between Zoroastrianism and Judaism, and hence also between the former and Christianity, are many and striking.
...
It is known, of course, as a historic fact that the Jews and the Persians came in contact with each other at an early period in antiquity and remained in more or less close relation throughout their history (see Avesta; Media; Persia). Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general, and also that the monotheistic conception of Yhwh may have been quickened and strengthened by being opposed to the dualism or quasi-monotheism of the Persians.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

 

[LoAmmi]

Here is something I found explaining the Zoroastrian influence on Judaism. The whole article is informative, but here is snippet:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

Of course, one of the KEY differences between the two faiths is the rejection of dualism in Judaism. There is no evil entity out there opposing HaShem.

 

[LoAmmi]

I would also point out that I find it highly unlikely that two civilizations were in such close contact but that the influence only went one way. One could argue that there would be influence going both ways so that some of the ideas we see as parallels could originate in either.

 

[smaneck]

What are you basing this information off? I believe that the Jews were the first monotheistic religion.

That would depend on when Judaism became monotheistic and when Zoroaster lived. No one takes the date 660 B.C. seriously anymore. Most scholars think Zoroaster lived between 1500-1000 B.C. That would make Him roughly a contemporary of Moses, maybe even Abraham.

 

[smaneck]

I would also point out that I find it highly unlikely that two civilizations were in such close contact but that the influence only went one way. One could argue that there would be influence going both ways so that some of the ideas we see as parallels could originate in either.

That is correct. And most of the influence occurs during the Hellenistic period not so much during the time of the Persian Empire. It seems one of the things both cultures shared was their misery under the Greeks. Hence in both traditions we find this great outpouring of apocalyptic literature. During the Persian Empire, Jews seem to be largely saying no to Zoroastrian dualism a la Isaiah 45 but during the Hellenistic period we see the introduction of concepts like the resurrection, the Judgement Day, paradise and hell, and most importantly demonology.
In others words, nearly everything Jews came to believe in by the time of Christ which isn't in the Tanakh (excepting Daniel) appears largely to be due to Zoroastrian influence. But the Tanakh itself, aside from the Book of Daniel and Isaiah 45's firm "no", appears largely untouched by Zoroastrian thought.

 

[LoAmmi]

That is correct. And most of the influence occurs during the Hellenistic period not so much during the time of the Persian Empire. It seems one of the things both cultures shared was their misery under the Greeks. Hence in both traditions we find this great outpouring of apocalyptic literature. During the Persian Empire, Jews seem to be largely saying no to Zoroastrian dualism a la Isaiah 45 but during the Hellenistic period we see the introduction of concepts like the resurrection, the Judgement Day, paradise and hell, and most importantly demonology.
In others words, nearly everything Jews came to believe in by the time of Christ which isn't in the Tanakh (excepting Daniel) appears largely to be due to Zoroastrian influence. But the Tanakh itself, aside from the Book of Daniel and Isaiah 45's firm "no", appears largely untouched by Zoroastrian thought.

A lot of those concepts were removed from Judaism, though I do know that a lot of Jews believed them. I have to imagine that a lot of stuff not contained in the Tanakh was removed once the books were put together.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here is something I found explaining the Zoroastrian influence on Judaism. The whole article is informative, but here is snippet:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

Nothing personal, but it just doesn't seem relevant to me since I know extensively what the Old Testament says. The Israelite's did not 100% obey God, but besides the golden calf incident (which was punished by God making them live in the wilderness for 40 years) there is nothing to indicate that

1. The Israelite's ever turned away from God (Yaweh)
2. The 10 Commandments, remember the most important one "thou will have NO OTHER Gods before me"
3. Unless it was a very small influence to 1 or 2 of the 12 Tribes of Israel, it did not happen.

They may have shared trade and other things, but not religion. The Bible would have documented it unless it was the rebellious Tribe of Dan. It didn't happen.

Although it could be the Judaism of today as they have many outside sources they believe in outside of the Bible. Christians don't have another text or source, we only use the Bible. So for Judaism, it's possible. Christianity, No.
But I do appreciate your looking for information.

 

[cloudyday2]

I would also point out that I find it highly unlikely that two civilizations were in such close contact but that the influence only went one way. One could argue that there would be influence going both ways so that some of the ideas we see as parallels could originate in either.

That is true, although I suspect the Jewish exiles would be immersed in Persian culture while only transferring a smidgen or two of Jewish culture in the other direction. I think most of the Jewish influence would be in cooking, art, music, crafts, etc. Religious jobs would probably be closed to Jews, so their influence would be small. Meanwhile the Jews would be under great pressure to adopt the culture and religion of the Persians.

Also, if we agree that the Jews were originally polytheistic and at most monolatrous, then dualism was inherent. There was the good god Yahweh and the bad gods of the foreigners.

 

[LoAmmi]

2. The 10 Commandments, remember the most important one "thou will have NO OTHER Gods before me"

Actually, the phrasing of that commandment is very interesting. It isn't there is no other G-d beside me or just there are no other gods, it's an emphasis that those who agreed to the Torah would have no other deity before HaShem. Later, we see clear indications that there are no other gods and that He is alone and there is no one beside Him.

 

[LoAmmi]

That is true, although I suspect the Jewish exiles would be immersed in Persian culture while only transferring a smidgen or two of Jewish culture in the other direction. I think most of the Jewish influence would be in cooking, art, music, crafts, etc. Religious jobs would probably be closed to Jews, so their influence would be small. Meanwhile the Jews would be under great pressure to adopt the culture and religion of the Persians.

Also, if we agree that the Jews were originally polytheistic and at most monolatrous, then dualism was inherent. There was the good god Yahweh and the bad gods of the foreigners.

I see a lot of weasel words in there. Probably, I think, and the like.

Also, I never got an indication that the gods of other nations would be considered evil. It was evil for those of Israel to worship them. Except for the worshipers who put their children though fire. That god seemed to be considered evil.

 

[danny ski]

If you really want to see how the external forces imprinted themselves on Judaism, don't reach into the time without or with scant sources. Instead, look at the time with a plentiful source material. Look at the Judaism as a part of the Roman society, examine the early middle ages and the influence they left on the Jewish thought. There is an excellent chance and an easy case to make that the early Jewish history and the Babylonian episode closely mirrored the later developments.

 

[cloudyday2]

I see a lot of weasel words in there. Probably, I think, and the like.

"Weasel words"?!!! I prefer to call them "qualifiers"

 

[LoAmmi]

"Weasel words"?!!! I prefer to call them "qualifiers"

Yes, I have a friend who does the same thing and I point them out as well. Your opinion is fine but what you are saying is a lot of speculation. Perhaps its true, perhaps it isn't.

 

[cloudyday2]

If you really want to see how the external forces imprinted themselves on Judaism, don't reach into the time without or with scant sources. Instead, look at the time with a plentiful source material. Look at the Judaism as a part of the Roman society, examine the early middle ages and the influence they left on the Jewish thought. There is an excellent chance and an easy case to make that the early Jewish history and the Babylonian episode closely mirrored the later developments.

That is a good idea. There is also Judaism under Islam that might be well documented. I believe the conquered Jews contributed to medicine, science, etc. It would be interesting to see how much Judaism influenced Islam after the conquest (obviously Judaism influenced Islam simply by being a parent religion). Philosophy affects theology, so that might be a likely area of influence.