What is so wrong with socialism?

[Willtor]

It seemed as if the poster I was replying to was hung up on the fact that the CEO made x-times what the employees made...

What's also true in other countries is that they're trying to achieve that goal with a "demonize the rich" mentality.

In the US, people have been sold on this false idea that the reason we can't have all of those things is because the rich are being stubborn about paying more in taxes. This notion that..."They're resisting paying 39% instead of 35%...that's why we have problems!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

We have the 6th highest max tax rate in the world on our wealthy folks, and the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

I don't think the issue is needing even more money for distribution...I think the issue is that the government needs to have some accountability and make some smart decisions with the $3 Trillion they already get every year before going back to the well to get more.

Reign in military spending, end the costly war on drugs, stop some of the foreign aid, stop the massive subsidies and bailouts, stop spending money on expired programs (http://thehill.com/policy/finance/241304-mccain-highlights-billions-in-wasteful-government-spending)

All of these things are ways to free up funds they already have rather than having to go back and dip into peoples' wallets again.

I think the x times salary is a problem, but it's a different problem. And I don't have a solution for it.

How we pay for universal healthcare, care for the elderly and sick, house the homeless, etc., is a closely related issue. Certainly, things like heavy military spending, the war on drugs, etc., are all tremendous sinks. If we can pay for former programs by siphoning off the latter, I'm all for that.

 

[Loudmouth]

You aren't entitled to have others pay for your health care.

Ever heard of Medicare?

You aren't entitled to have others pay for your education.

Ever heard of public schools?

You aren't entitled to live off your neighbors.

Ever heard of corporate subsidies where money is taken from the middle class and given to millionaires?

You aren't entitled to benefit from resources that are not yours.

That happens every day that corporations make profit from the resource of labor.

If you want something, earn it. If you take it, you're a thief. Theft is a sin.
Coveting the wealth of others is a sin.
Hating those who are more successful in life is a sin.

Medicare is theft? Really?

 

[Willtor]

...

Ever heard of corporate subsidies where money is taken from the middle class and given to millionaires?

...

To be fair, I don't think anybody (except a handful of people) approves of that one.

 

[interpreter]

It seemed as if the poster I was replying to was hung up on the fact that the CEO made x-times what the employees made...

What's also true in other countries is that they're trying to achieve that goal with a "demonize the rich" mentality.

In the US, people have been sold on this false idea that the reason we can't have all of those things is because the rich are being stubborn about paying more in taxes. This notion that..."They're resisting paying 39% instead of 35%...that's why we have problems!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

We have the 6th highest max tax rate in the world on our wealthy folks, and the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

I don't think the issue is needing even more money for distribution...I think the issue is that the government needs to have some accountability and make some smart decisions with the $3 Trillion they already get every year before going back to the well to get more.

Reign in military spending, end the costly war on drugs, stop some of the foreign aid, stop the massive subsidies and bailouts, stop spending money on expired programs (http://thehill.com/policy/finance/241304-mccain-highlights-billions-in-wasteful-government-spending)

All of these things are ways to free up funds they already have rather than having to go back and dip into peoples' wallets again.

I disagree. We should be hard on the rich like Jesus was. We should not be satisfied with the 6th highest max tax rate and go for number one.

And that's partly because we should increase military spending, not decrease it like you say, because we are now fighting the Battle of Ar Mageddon (which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry and is expanding around the world as prophesied). It is up to the US, the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus, to kill the last of the enemies of Jesus, and we will, but it will no doubt be expensive.

 

[Jan Volkes]

Reign in military spending, end the costly war on drugs, stop some of the foreign aid.

Do you know how much money is given in foreign aid?

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...le-sams-money-goes-to-foreign-aid-guess-again

 

[Loudmouth]

Nope, do you think the janitor has the same degree of responsibilities and liabilities?

Yes, the janitor does have the same degree of responsibilities and liabilities. Have you seen what happens when a CEO tanks a company? They get a golden parachute and bonuses.

Supply & Demand

If the skills you possess have a certain level of rarity, then you're able to get a higher level of compensation for them.

In terms of rarity, there's a tipping point...and that point is when you go from "competing with others to see who's going to work at a company"...to..."companies competing with each other to see who's going to be able to get you to work for them"

So it has nothing to do with a person's worth as a moral being?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, the janitor does have the same degree of responsibilities and liabilities. Have you seen what happens when a CEO tanks a company? They get a golden parachute and bonuses.

Are we talking norms or outliers? Do most CEOs have golden parachute clauses in their contract?

So it has nothing to do with a person's worth as a moral being?

In my mind...no.

I'm not hiring someone based on their moral being...I'm hiring someone to perform a predefined task.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Do you know how much money is given in foreign aid?

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...le-sams-money-goes-to-foreign-aid-guess-again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

I was going off of this link...

Healthcare costs per capita in the US: $6,815...we could provide healthcare to quite a few folks domestically with what we're giving to other countries.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I disagree. We should be hard on the rich like Jesus was. We should not be satisfied with the 6th highest max tax rate and go for number one.

And that's partly because we should increase military spending, not decrease it like you say, because we are now fighting the Battle of Ar Mageddon (which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry and is expanding around the world as prophesied). It is up to the US, the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus, to kill the last of the enemies of Jesus, and we will, but it will no doubt be expensive.

Based on our 1st amendment, we shouldn't be doing anything based on "what Jesus would've done"...if someone want to embrace those ideals on a personal level, go for it...but won't don't dictate national economic policy based on a religion.

 

[Mediaeval]

I think you must walk around with your eyes closed.
The government keeps millions of people alive with Medicaid and Medicare and a host of other government run programmes, would you have them drop all of those programmes?

Probably most people who are supported by such programs were forced to pay into it. I don’t begrudge them their benefits. Still, such inefficient programs should be ended or at least be made voluntary.

 

[Mediaeval]

Why is good quality health care only expensive in America?

In countries where the government runs the entire system, the citizens of those countries pay half of what we do, per capita, for health care. How do you explain that?

Subsidies. Here’s a better example, where the government runs the entire healthcare system and the people using it pay nothing whatsoever. It’s called the Veterans Administration. All by itself the VA is great argument for free-market healthcare.

 

[Mediaeval]

What of it? What is there to be done, since morality is subjective? I can't will it to change.

What is to be done is to seek for moral truth, not opinion. It is available. Your own conscience bears witness.

 

[Loudmouth]

Are we talking norms or outliers? Do most CEOs have golden parachute clauses in their contract?

Yes.

When those different investment firms and banks caused the massive recession in 2008, guess what happened? They gave themselves bonuses. This was followed by a massive bailout on the backs of the middle class, and they gave themselves bonuses with that money too.

I'm not hiring someone based on their moral being...I'm hiring someone to perform a predefined task.

That's slavery.

 

[Loudmouth]

Subsidies. Here’s a better example, where the government runs the entire healthcare system and the people using it pay nothing whatsoever. It’s called the Veterans Administration. All by itself the VA is great argument for free-market healthcare.

How so?

 

[Mediaeval]

And one likewise has a choice in whether they want to live in the US or not. People who don't want to pay their freight can go elsewhere.

But if you DO go through the gate and refuse to pay you will be arrested and carted off to jail. And then you'll be put on trial and you will lose and you will have the fees (and legal fees) forcibly confiscated from you.

Not everyone can pay to go elsewhere, especially when the government is taking such a large portion of their pay.

No one who respects private property is going to force themselves through that gate.

 

[Mediaeval]

Do you have a choice whether or not you fund public schools? Why aren't you fighting that?

Abolish the public schools! Let education be private for all and not only for the children of rich politicians!

 

[Loudmouth]

Abolish the public schools! Let education be private for all and not only for the children of rich politicians!

You do realize that this will mean children of poor families will not have access to schools, right?

 

[Cearbhall]

What is to be done is to seek for moral truth, not opinion. It is available. Your own conscience bears witness.

This is just more opinion, from my point of view. I respect your beliefs, but I disagree with them. I do not believe that objective morality exists.

Abolish the public schools! Let education be private for all and not only for the children of rich politicians!

I assure you, the offspring of rich politicians do not make up 10% of US children.

 

[interpreter]

Based on our 1st amendment, we shouldn't be doing anything based on "what Jesus would've done"...if someone want to embrace those ideals on a personal level, go for it...but won't don't dictate national economic policy based on a religion.

Christians control the US with their vote, and dictate everything the US government does. In that way they can impose their religious beliefs. If they want to make the US a socialist nation, they will.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Christians control the US with their vote, and dictate everything the US government does. In that way they can impose their religious beliefs. If they want to make the US a socialist nation, they will.

Thus far, they haven't...in fact, Evangelical Christians in the US have largely supported the side that opposes socialism the most.
2nd, Christians no longer control the landscape to the same degree they used to in the US...the trends are shifting

However, the constitution does provide limitations...there's certain things that can't even be demanded by voters. (unless they can get enough support to repeal the first amendment...which is very unlikely)